Curse

Knido · Jan 27, 2006, 08:54 PM // 20:54

run an 2 man Aegis chain with Ward against Melee to cover some 15-20 seconds for monks to recharge energy

add this in with a dust trap or 2 and IWAY is cut down quite a bit.

lishi · Jan 27, 2006, 09:14 PM // 21:14

mhh the only thing i want fixed in iway is EoE bomb , really this is the only thing who can screw a good team

Fantus · Jan 28, 2006, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

You want to make IWAY go away? Fix the fame system. Make people lose fame for losses. Then maybe people will stop running IWAY to farm it. That is the SOLE reason why it used at all, because fame is farmable.

Have you an idea what this would mean? It would mean that nobody would ever get to rank 1 again, probably.

New players tend to lose a LOT more games than they win (IWAY or not IWAY). If you'd take away a fame point for every loss, they'd effectivly stay at zero fame forever.

Of course fame is farmable. To a certain degree it SHOULD be "farmable", because basically it's there to reflect the number of games you have played in HA - and thus your experience. "Playing many games" is just another word for "farming", right?

The fame system is really not the problem. IWAY is popular for the very reason that it's the ONLY HA build that can be successful without the slightest form of organization. THAT's the problem.

JR · Jan 28, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

The fame system is really not the problem. IWAY is popular for the very reason that it's the ONLY HA build that can be successful without the slightest form of organization. THAT's the problem.

Yes, that is true. It is popular because it is easy to throw together. That all comes under the "fast wins and losses" factor that I spoke about. People do not run IWAY because it is a good build, they run it because it takes very little talent to mow scrubs with, and you can very quickly rake in fame with it. You will probably lose against any decent teams, but thats no big deal because you will be back 'awating worthy opponent' within a few minutes.

The fame/rank system as it stands is a complete joke, and I think any PvP player worth their salt would agree. It is absolutely no reflection of player skill, merely how much you can play the same thing over and over without getting bored of it. If you actually lost fame for losing matches in HA, flashing that rank emote would then be a much more accurate demonstration of your individual talent.

glenn_rolfe · Jan 29, 2006, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

The fame/rank system as it stands is a complete joke, and I think any PvP player worth their salt would agree. It is absolutely no reflection of player skill, merely how much you can play the same thing over and over without getting bored of it. If you actually lost fame for losing matches in HA, flashing that rank emote would then be a much more accurate demonstration of your individual talent.

Yes and no. I mean, how do you measure an individuals skill in a team based challenge. I think it's OK as it is.
I think the problem is that too many people let themselves get beaten by IWAY so that it encourages people to keep playing IWAY again and again and again. Thereby flooding tombs with a boring repetitive skilless build (yes skillless - and don't get me started on how much skill u IWAY guys "think" you have")

I can't remember the last time I was in scarred earth or courtyard without an IWAY there. And for that matter in halls. It's a freakin' joke. It's gotta stop, and the only way it'l stop is if mediocre players will wise up quickly and beat them

Vaga · Jan 30, 2006, 07:14 AM // 07:14

If rank is meant to show your experience why can't you get it in regular team arenas?

If it is actually a measure of how 'famous' you are then maybe it should be reset with the ladder.

JR · Jan 30, 2006, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

If rank is meant to show your experience why can't you get it in regular team arenas?

Because winning in arena is no demonstration of skill either. The competition in arena is fairly pathetic. I could quite easily take a team of buddies into arena and get 50+ consecutive untill I was bored out of my skull, or hit another decent (but rare) team. Does that mean I am godly at this game? No, the competition in arena is just *that* bad. Tombs isn't miles better either, but the system is there so get used to it.

Vaga · Jan 30, 2006, 10:40 AM // 10:40

So what you are saying is, if I got 50 consecutive wins in the team arena someone running iway and at least having the chance to get fame is better?

I mean all that tombs is now is grinding, you have to grind to rank 3+ just to be able to do somthing different.

Your guild can be very high ranked in less matches than it takes for someone to get to rank 3 but they must all have no skill.

It would mean more to me knowing people could get rank 3 not running iway or some other fotm that doesn't require any thinking, in Team Arenas you still have to think. I really doubt you see any rank 6 people who have just done balanced build all the way from 0-6, 90% of the time it was iway the whole way and all that means is you can either spam a couple spells or play a warrior.

JR · Jan 30, 2006, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

So what you are saying is, if I got 50 consecutive wins in the team arena someone running iway and at least having the chance to get fame is better?

I mean all that tombs is now is grinding, you have to grind to rank 3+ just to be able to do somthing different.

I never said I liked the current system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Your guild can be very high ranked in less matches than it takes for someone to get to rank 3 but they must all have no skill.

True, if you play at a very consistant high level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

It would mean more to me knowing people could get rank 3 not running iway or some other fotm that doesn't require any thinking, in Team Arenas you still have to think. I really doubt you see any rank 6 people who have just done balanced build all the way from 0-6, 90% of the time it was iway the whole way and all that means is you can either spam a couple spells or play a warrior.

Again, just because you can get rank 3 from IWAY, doesn't justify getting rank from arena. They need to change the rank system so you CAN'T easily farm fame with IWAY.

Fantus · Jan 30, 2006, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Again, just because you can get rank 3 from IWAY, doesn't justify getting rank from arena. They need to change the rank system so you CAN'T easily farm fame with IWAY.

I don't think that's possible. The only way to do that is to balance out IWAY by either weakening it or by strenghening other builds so that they can defeat it easier.

No change to the rank system would make IWAY disappear - because it wouldn't change the fact that no other build gives new or unorganized players a better hope to win than IWAY.

JR · Jan 30, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

I don't think that's possible. The only way to do that is to balance out IWAY by either weakening it or by strenghening other builds so that they can defeat it easier.

No change to the rank system would make IWAY disappear - because it wouldn't change the fact that no other build gives new or unorganized players a better hope to win than IWAY.

I don't know where you get this impression that IWAY is so great. It certainly isn't 'overpowered'.

And is it really so bad that it DOES give new players a chance to easily get into HA? Again as I stated earlier: I have no problems with new players running IWAY. The problem I have is with the rank 6+ IWAY groups, that should have the knowledge and experience to run better builds to greater success, but don't, and can't.

And why do they *still* run IWAY? ...Because, yes you guessed it, fame is farmable with IWAY. More so than with any other build. You can put a group together very quickly, and you get very fast wins and losses. As the losses don't actually matter, you can just go right back in and try again without worries. That is no different than mapping in and out of Augury Rock to farm minotaurs on a 55hp monk, you are just farming for something other than gold. Does having a lot of gold show you are good at this game?If you change the rank system so fame isn't farmable, running IWAY would be a lot less effective, without having to nerf any skills unneccasarily.

To explain my point a little further, as I am quite tired of repeating this: IWAY loses, a LOT. The thing is it makes no difference. You lose quickly, you go back to HA AD1 or whatever and just hit the 'Enter Mission' button again. You may have lost a match, but you haven't actually "lost" anything. Therefore all that really matters with your build, is that it is easy to put together, and will win or lose quickly. Perfect for farming. That is why IWAY is so popular.

Now if you were to make it so you LOST fame when you lost a game in HA, that would solve the problem. People running IWAY would now find they were either now getting a net loss in fame with IWAY, or they were net gaining fame a hell of a lot slower due to the losses. Probably to the point that it just wasn't worth running IWAY anymore. People at that point may actually have to start running good builds. And if you have to run a good build to win and gain fame, you have to play with skill. You have to actually earn those rank emotes through being GOOD at this game. Doesn't that sound slightly more logical to you? That fame and rank should actually mean something?

Anyway, rant over. I am slightly tired of this topic, and repeating myself like a broken record. Plus if I see another person suggesting that IWAY needs nerfing, I might cry.

Fantus · Jan 30, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I don't know where you get this impression that IWAY is so great. It certainly isn't 'overpowered'.

You got me wrong. I never said that it's overpowerd. It's not. At least not as a build. What makes IWAY so strong and thus appealing to players is that it needs no organization. ALL other builds in HA do need organization. Yes, IWAY wins or loses quicker than other builds. That's partly why people take it to build up fame. But that's not the whole story. IWAY is way quicker than any other builds not because of the speedup in the actual fighting but because of the speedup in TEAM ASSEMBLING. You need how long to put together a PUG in HA? 30 minutes on average, I'd say. Add another 20-30 minutes to get all peeps on voice com and discuss the strategy, change skillbars etc. That's easily a whole hour before you even meet the Zaishen. The point of IWAY is NOT that it shortens the average fight by 5 minutes, but that eliminates the HOUR before you can actually start the battle. THAT's why you can so wonderfully farm fame with it. And really, the change to the rank system you suggested wouldn't change any of this. IWAY would remain the most popular build. It loses a lot, but it certainly doesn't lose more than a balanced build you run with some random people who's playstyles you don't know. Your "new" rank system would equally punish them both and thus it wouldn't change anything. 90% of people would still play IWAY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

And is it really so bad that it DOES give new players a chance to easily get into HA? Again as I stated earlier: I have no problems with new players running IWAY.

I DO want to give new players a chance in HA. This is the very reason why I am opposed to your idea to remove fame on lost games. No new player ever would get to rank 1 again this way. ALL new players lose more games than they win. In your system, only people who win more than 50% of their games would even START to build up rank. Believe me, new players are FAR from this win percentage.

Also, I don't have a problem with IWAY itself. I have a problem with the fact that 90% of all PUGs run it and that all a new player can do is play IWAY or not play at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

The problem I have is with the rank 6+ IWAY groups, that should have the knowledge and experience to run better builds to greater success, but don't, and can't.

Rank doesn't show versatility, it shows that people have played in HA for a certain amount of time and have won a certain number of games. It also means that the people know the maps. Rank shows experience. That's all it shows and that's all it needs to show. No rank system could ever tell you if the person knows how to play, say, a bonder or ranger spiker. That's not the point of the rank system. Thus, it doesn't really matter if the guys got their rank by IWAYing or by playing another FotM build or even if they got it by playing 10 different roles over that time. If you want people to fill a certain role, you still need to ask them if they are familiar/comfortable with that build. A guild's rank does show success, a player's rank shows experience.

Homsar · Jan 30, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

There is a reason why rank 9 players go offline when they play iway. They dont want to be seen. Playing iway is like giving tactics to bin laden. You shouldnt do it. Having trouble finding a group? Make one. Its not hard. Through trial and error you will build your friends list up and be on your way to becoming a decent Guild wars Player. How do you think people did it before iway came around. You found a pug, found what works, what didnt, you didnt say, oh, i have 30 minutes before i have to go..maybe i can find a quick iway group and farm some fame. Thats rediculious. If you want to farm fame, find a decent group. You will find you can actually get MORE fame from playin other things than iway. Do i think Iway is overpowered? Perhaps. But its boring as hell to fight iway 9/10 matches in HA. dont want IWAY to get nerfed? stop playing it. Anet already has done balance updates to IMPROVE the variety of gameplay.

There is no variety in HA right now.

Perhaps we should take a lesson from newcomers Japan and Taiwan. Granted they lose alot, but they have the mental capacity to try original things and get up when they fall.

Tarus From Taros · Jan 30, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

90% will be PvP warriors.

I'd actually say it's quite the opposite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

What makes IWAY so strong and thus appealing to players is that it needs no organization.

This is really one of those obnoxious myths. Sure, if you get noob teams in Underworld and Burial Mounds you can probably get by with little to no organization. But once you get into the rest of the maps that's usually where things change. Actually many things factor into why IWAY is so popular and will always remain popular. Being overpowered and requiring no organization? Those really are not very realistic reasons. Here's a few reasons why I think IWAY is so popular.

1. Because it IS popular! Any new or experienced player looking to PVP will have an easier time finding info about the IWAY build and finding a group than any other PUG out there. So why bother with anything else? Sure there are groups out there with strong IWAY resistance, but it just takes far too long to find enough people who not only know but want to run another particular build. Even if you meet that requirement, people will just end up leaving if you don't get a full group quickly enough.

2. Because most Warrior PVE players already have the skills unlocked. I've went into this in more detail in a previous post a page or so back.

Now, obviously if you have an active guild with 7 other people on who want to PVP or plenty of PVP friends you won't have much need for the IWAY build. However, the average joe isn't as lucky.

Now most people think IWAY needs Nerfed. Others think optional methods lie within changing other gaming aspects. The real answer? CREATE A BUILD THAT IS FUN TO PLAY FOR NEWCOMERS AND EXPERIENCED ALIKE! If you hate IWAY so much put some serious thought into all the benefits IWAY gives players and create a build superior that others will want to play. This is the only sensible way that you will see an end to IWAY.

JR · Jan 30, 2006, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

You got me wrong. I never said that it's overpowerd. It's not. At least not as a build. What makes IWAY so strong and thus appealing to players is that it needs no organization. ALL other builds in HA do need organization. Yes, IWAY wins or loses quicker than other builds. That's partly why people take it to build up fame. But that's not the whole story. IWAY is way quicker than any other builds not because of the speedup in the actual fighting but because of the speedup in TEAM ASSEMBLING. You need how long to put together a PUG in HA? 30 minutes on average, I'd say. Add another 20-30 minutes to get all peeps on voice com and discuss the strategy, change skillbars etc. That's easily a whole hour before you even meet the Zaishen. The point of IWAY is NOT that it shortens the average fight by 5 minutes, but that eliminates the HOUR before you can actually start the battle. THAT's why you can so wonderfully farm fame with it. And really, the change to the rank system you suggested wouldn't change any of this. IWAY would remain the most popular build. It loses a lot, but it certainly doesn't lose more than a balanced build you run with some random people who's playstyles you don't know. Your "new" rank system would equally punish them both and thus it wouldn't change anything. 90% of people would still play IWAY.

Yes... And I have made the same point repeatedly in this thread. IWAY is easy to throw together because it is a very simple build. That in no way negates my argument either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

I DO want to give new players a chance in HA. This is the very reason why I am opposed to your idea to remove fame on lost games. No new player ever would get to rank 1 again this way. ALL new players lose more games than they win. In your system, only people who win more than 50% of their games would even START to build up rank. Believe me, new players are FAR from this win percentage.

Assuming that the new players NEVER GET ANY BETTER, yes, you have a point. But then if they don't get better why should they have any form of rank? If rank is supposedly to show skill. But new players WILL get better if they have any talent and are persistant. They will get contacts from PuGs, maybe even start their own groups.... And eventually start gaining rank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

Also, I don't have a problem with IWAY itself. I have a problem with the fact that 90% of all PUGs run it and that all a new player can do is play IWAY or not play at all.

Unless they join a guild. Most good guilds don't have a rank requirment. Sure if you only want to Tomb and not GvG that might be a problem. There is no magical way to solve this problem. A new player can't suddenly have dozens of contacts and get into decent pugs running good builds. It takes time, it just happens that IWAY is the best thing to do in the meanwhile to get yourself into it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

Rank doesn't show versatility, it shows that people have played in HA for a certain amount of time and have won a certain number of games. It also means that the people know the maps. Rank shows experience. That's all it shows and that's all it needs to show. No rank system could ever tell you if the person knows how to play, say, a bonder or ranger spiker. That's not the point of the rank system. Thus, it doesn't really matter if the guys got their rank by IWAYing or by playing another FotM build or even if they got it by playing 10 different roles over that time. If you want people to fill a certain role, you still need to ask them if they are familiar/comfortable with that build. A guild's rank does show success, a player's rank shows experience.

As with your first point, you are saying basicly what I have. Rank earnt running IWAY in tombs shows nothing but how well you can run IWAY in tombs. Rank earnt by actually running good builds that require coordination and understanding would NOT just show that you can run something like a trained chimp, but you actually have some talent.

At the moment, rank only shows that you have probably played IWAY a lot. That is all it shows. If running better builds in tombs was more rewarding to players, then they would probably do it. For example, at the moment you can run a good tombs build and maybe take it to HoH and win. But in the time it took you to do that you could have farmed more fame with IWAY much more easily, so why bother? People are not rewarded for running anything but IWAY at the moment.

The downside to IWAY, as I have already covered, is that it *does* lose a lot. Most decent organised groups should smack it down fairly hard, because they will be going into tombs prepared for it. This is where the problem is. You are not punished for losing, at all. So fast wins and fast losses are all that count. If you WERE punished for losing, it would make IWAY far less viable to farm fame. And this would NOT punish people running decent builds. It would take a little while longer for new players to get off the mark, yes, but as I said before; do new players even deserve fame untill they are good? Isn't it supposed to show something? And wouldn't it be far nicer if new players weren't shoved into such a scrub infested game when they ventured into tombs for the first time?

Anyway, good day to you, sir. This thread has become most tiresome.

Nerdy · Jan 31, 2006, 03:02 AM // 03:02

You basically have to grind out to Rank 3 in unranked PUGs. That probably one of the most frustrating parts of starting out in tombs.

Once you've hit Rank 3, opportunities open themselves up. You make a friends list and you can hook up with people.

The most important thing is to enjoy it rather than look at it as grind. Once you had your first taste of this of winning halls, you'll want more.

Homsar · Jan 31, 2006, 04:08 AM // 04:08

but...but....you cant have a Pet if your W/E! OMG WHAT DO WE DO!

lol...thru the mind of an Iway'er

glenn_rolfe · Jan 31, 2006, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarus From Taros

Now most people think IWAY needs Nerfed. Others think optional methods lie within changing other gaming aspects. The real answer? CREATE A BUILD THAT IS FUN TO PLAY FOR NEWCOMERS AND EXPERIENCED ALIKE! If you hate IWAY so much put some serious thought into all the benefits IWAY gives players and create a build superior that others will want to play. This is the only sensible way that you will see an end to IWAY.

Now most people think IWAY needs Nerfed. Others think optional methods lie within changing other gaming aspects. The real answer? CREATE A BUILD THAT IS FUN TO PLAY FOR NEWCOMERS AND EXPERIENCED ALIKE! If you hate IWAY so much put some serious thought into all the benefits IWAY gives players and create a build superior that others will want to play. This is the only sensible way that you will see an end to IWAY.[/QUOTE]

OK, here's the most basic, easiest balanced build to play in tombs for all you guys that only play IWAY. I'd much rather you guys do this, than IWAY. At least you learn something.

W/E - Evis, rake, penetrating, wild blow, frenzy, sprint, shock, res sig

Me/e - Surge, burn, mantra inscriptions, sig weariness, sig humility, mind wrack, windborne, res sig

Me/n, Surge, burn, mantra inscriptions, sign weariness, sign humility, mind wrack, consuem corpse, res sig

N/E - Spiteful, enfeeble, suffering, parasitic bond, faintheartedness, blood ritual, ward foes, res sig

R/Me, Oath shot, dust rap, barbed trap, savage shot, fertile, frozen, mantra resolve, res sig

Mo/N - heal party, OOB etc.

Mo/ME - SB, infuse, channeling, seed etc.

Mo/Me - Restore conditions, prot spirit, channeling, etc.

There you go. We all know about this simple build. Go and play it IWAY, go and play, it's far more likely to get you to halls, and to hold. And will teach you all the basics of playing balanced builds. Don't do anything else, run these skills, don't change. 2 minutes to set-up. Gogogogogogogogogog!

tafy69 · Jan 31, 2006, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Yes play the fotm surge team instead please! You can easily beat IWAY with this and have some self respect back.

Maybe if they had Premade with a Surge mesmer, Oath trapper etc it would be possible.

Oh if you make Oath Trapper take Whirling Defence instead of Mantra Resolve.

Tarus From Taros · Jan 31, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

There you go. We all know about this simple build.

You do see this build a lot on the Tourny maps....maybe not as much as IWAY but it's definatly there. Its going to take a lot more then surge to be the new "in" build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafy69

Yes play the fotm surge team instead please! You can easily beat IWAY with this and have some self respect back.

This is another obnoxious thing people do that hate IWAY. Can you please tell me how ridiculing IWAY players on matters of respect is going to make them give a damn about anything you say? Pretty hypocritical. I always see people rambling on about how no one respects IWAY players and blah blah blah. Since when is Guild Wars about earning the approval of total strangers on the internet? And all this time I thought it was about having fun.....

Let me tell you something, There is NOTHING fun about taking an hour to get a group together!IWAY isn't going anywhere until we see builds that have just as many benefits.