Curse

zoozoc · Dec 22, 2005, 06:46 AM // 06:46

nerfing IWAY would just make the teams stronger, i mean some of them might get smart and use fear me instead. Besides Iway is only a small part of the build, it would still do about just as good without it.

Kabale · Dec 22, 2005, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoozoc

nerfing IWAY would just make the teams stronger, i mean some of them might get smart and use fear me instead. Besides Iway is only a small part of the build, it would still do about just as good without it.

I doubt this very much. What tends to be a problem with IWAY is their damage 'longevity'; they can maintain steady damage and keep up their health over a period of time. If they didn't have IWAY, eventually they'd run out of energy for tiger's fury (as they really need the increased attack speed to be able to break through defenses) and their damage output would be gimped. Right now, IWAY groups do just enough damage to pose a threat. 1 mistake in a very organized group and they will bring you down fast. Of course, this depends on what build you're running.

Shadowspawn X · Jan 04, 2006, 08:37 PM // 20:37

I don't think A-net will ever nerf IWAY because come spring we are going to have 10-15 new skills added to every class with new elites and even two new classes. When that happens IWAY and the other current FoTM builds wont be such a hot topic and will fall by the wayside. Tombs chap. 2 wont be about IWAY.

Glasswalker · Jan 04, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

you'd stop IWAY being charged by pets and only by party members if you wanted to nerf it.
Which let's face it, should really be the intention of the skill. When your comrade dies you go into a short rage. That's cool. But when your pet dies, you just flush it down the toilet

Spoken like someone who has never had a pet more playful than a goldfish... I've known people to go into severe depression when a pet dies. A Ranger's sole companion could certainly get their vengeance up.

But I agree with an earlier poster who said you shouldn't be able to use the skill multiple times on the same corpse. And frankly, I care a lot less about it if my friend's warthog dies (in fact I'm secretly relieved...

).

Elrodien · Jan 05, 2006, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Its amazing to see this thread still going strong! This just proves how strongly people feel that the ranking system and rank snobbery are wrong. As mentioned, with Chapter2 on the horizon, hopefully a new, fairer way of 8 v 8 competition will appear with the new game.

/crosses fingers

Cyreal · Jan 05, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

I'm rank 1, and after reading this post i wanted to try Tombs again (Havn't played there for ages since it takes so long to find a group).
I made my IWAY warrior and started to search for a group. After a while i found a group, and we went into the tombs and won the first, but before the second game even started ½ of our team had left.
I became the group leader and started to look for people. We got a full team of random people, and began our greater adventure for Fame & Faction.
We won about ½ of our matches which was fine with me.

So if you want a way to get fame i'll suggest making your own team, using an "easy" build like iway. If you have a TS/VT server avaible use it! You will be suprised to see that people stays in the team even when you lose.

You don't think you can do this? - I had NEVER played IWAY before (i didn't even know what spirits the team should bring), and it was my first time ever to create a team in tombs.

When you are looking for members, think of what kind groups you normally join. Is it the one saying "LF IWAY PPL!!!1111111" (spammed 150 times) or the one who say "lf 1 order necro, and a W/R to finish iway team"

One more thing!
when someone joins make sure:
1. They know what iway is
2. They have the right skills
- If they fail to respond to these, simply say "I'll kick you in 10 seconds if you don't answer"
3. Never get mad at people, it's a game, you play to have fun

- These steps will most likely make your team 150% more effective

Normally I don't like iway, but as the saying goes: If you can't beat 'em, join them

mattjones527 · Jan 06, 2006, 08:44 AM // 08:44

I must say of all the builds out there I hate IWAY the most. But Cyreal is right, unless you have a guild group its very hard to get any fame. I have unlocked all the skills and have 250k+ total faction from GvG battles, but unless you have that stupid little /fame emote it makes it almost impossible to get into a good tombs group. Yes I too stooped to the low lvl of Iway to farm fame, that is until my guild started trying hoh some. In my opinion we need an Iway nerf or a new FotM. Personally I hate any and all nerfing, But all I want to see is something other than Iway in tombs, and I dont really care how that comes about. Please dont misquote my calling for a nerf, I just want a means to get more variety, not becuase I think iway is overpowered or hard to beat.

tafy69 · Jan 06, 2006, 09:44 AM // 09:44

IWAY nerf would be most welcome, then balanced teams can stop dedicating 2 entire offensive characters for anti iway!

Kabale · Jan 06, 2006, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

So, don't blame IWAYers for you seeing the same build all the time. The fair blame belongs on the devs' shoulders for:

1. Swinging the nerf bat too much thus limiting choice of build.

Ok I'm gonna have to comment on this. If smiting still worked, IWAY wouldn't exist. And I'm pretty sure that if spirit spamming still worked, no-one would run it because of IWAY raping spirit spam.

It's not the devs limiting builds, it's just one FoTM beats another, and hence people don't use it anymore and go with the stronger one. If anything, the devs are forced to 'nerf' in order to encourage people to change builds.

For example, if smiting wasn't 'nerfed', you wouldn't see any IWAY around, trust me. For one, people were happy with the dual-smite that was around and would continue to run it until god knows when, just because it was so powerful at the time. The second reason being that 'balanced' teams were getting beat by it as well, very often high ranking guilds, proving to the average PUG that it must be a powerful build, so no need to find something different to run (goes without saying that the fame was good too).

Then smiting becomes nerfed, and there's a general amount of confusion going around. Along comes some absolute genious and invents IWAY. Holy shit, the crowd goes mad and now everyone wants to do it.
Except this time there hasn't been a (significant) nerf, and IWAY has stuck around for a pretty long time now. And you're blaming the devs for this lack of creativity/will to *change* in your average PUG? You have no idea how much nerfing IWAY would free up people to finally start experimenting with all kinds of skills you'd never seen before in Tombs. As it stands now, balanced teams are forced to dedicate a number of skillslots specifically for IWAY and those who have a solid defense are just sick and tired of facing IWAY after IWAY... but that's a different story.

The point is, as long as there is a dominant build out there, why change to something if you don't either 1. know enough people to start a successful non-iway group, 2. enjoy running the FoTM (which I'm sure a lot of people do), and 3. can't run anything else? As long as there's no nerf, IWAY is going to stick around...

Hope that made sense.

minor · Jan 06, 2006, 01:27 PM // 13:27

I ve changed my thoughts on the rank system and heres my story why.

I was in the tombs at a very slow time d1 was maybe 75% full.I don't tombs very often because I have to carry a ranger that can trap or spirit spam to get a team quickly such as IWAY or the odd MF. Anyway nothing was really going on but there was a group spamming forming rank 6 iway need trappers and necs. I waited about 20mins couldn't find a grp so i messaged them stating my skill bar attribute lvls and that i wasn't rank 6 but knew the build LOL and they had been looking a while. I got no response so i got on another IWAY we won one lost one i came back to d1...Guess whos still spamming for trappers?

The rank 6 leet iways.

So they had been there over an hour spamming while i had actually played!! So u know what all the ppl like that plz stay just same and waste ur time trying to make a grp instead of letting ppl who haven't farmed iway enough yet to reach ur lvl play with u.

PS i know there are rank 6s who are great players and deserve the 6 or 9 but the ppl who farm iway to it and then say their rank makes them better than others make me laugh.

Kabale · Jan 06, 2006, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Another reason to do something about IWAY

all these players bragging about their rank, having played only 1 maybe 2 different types of builds.

lhurgrokoyv · Jan 06, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

first off, rank means nothing, some of the worst players i have ever seen were rank 9+, and some of the best pugs i've been in consisted of unranked players
secondly, if you cant get a group, learn some patience, find some friends, and get a guild
thirdly, have fun with the game, dont be like the "1337 players" who do nothing but farm fame with lame builds or fotm builds
fourth, make your own build, get friends to run it with you and have a good time

i did used to have the problem of finding a group myself, although being rank 6 and all, i was just picky with the people i'd go with
so i went around, met new people, started hanging out on sb, prp vent, and the vent servers of other high rank guilds
now i test builds, win hoh from time to time and have fun

leeky baby · Jan 06, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by minor

I ve changed my thoughts on the rank system and heres my story why.

I was in the tombs at a very slow time d1 was maybe 75% full.I don't tombs very often because I have to carry a ranger that can trap or spirit spam to get a team quickly such as IWAY or the odd MF. Anyway nothing was really going on but there was a group spamming forming rank 6 iway need trappers and necs. I waited about 20mins couldn't find a grp so i messaged them stating my skill bar attribute lvls and that i wasn't rank 6 but knew the build LOL and they had been looking a while. I got no response so i got on another IWAY we won one lost one i came back to d1...Guess whos still spamming for trappers?

The rank 6 leet iways.

So they had been there over an hour spamming while i had actually played!! So u know what all the ppl like that plz stay just same and waste ur time trying to make a grp instead of letting ppl who haven't farmed iway enough yet to reach ur lvl play with u.

PS i know there are rank 6s who are great players and deserve the 6 or 9 but the ppl who farm iway to it and then say their rank makes them better than others make me laugh.

Rank 6 IWAY lmao, i cant see the difference between any ranked iway as it has no skill in it at all. Iway just gets owned all the time it dont need to be nerfed FREE FAME

antialias02 · Jan 07, 2006, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Ugh. It's incredibly difficult to find a group in Tombs if you're not IWAY or in a Guild. I tried tonight for an hour and a half. I had one group interested in me as a nuker, but when my Me/E appeared on the scene, the guy had the nerve to tell me, "You can't be a nuker, go home, we don't want you," when clearly I knew how my own build worked. (It's a fast cast power nuke build.)

I sat around for another half an hour, FINALLY to get invited to a group, when my game crashed. Upon returning to GW land, they were gone.

So I decided I was done for the night. Point being, the only builds running were IWAY, IWAY, and... oh.. one other one... I remember it now!

IWAY.

How balanced REALLY is a team build that ends up being the only one run in Tombs? I hate saying IWAY needs to be nerfed. The nerf bat ends up being and endless cycle of everybody getting upset. Lots of people are STILL upset over past nerfs. I don't want to continue the spiral of decreasing power.

However, it still pokes in the back of my mind that something should be done about the fact that very few people want to play anything but IWAY.

Siliconwafer · Jan 07, 2006, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Well, in tombs, as Kabale stated, the mass of players, mostly casual, means the metagame needs be given an occasional shove by the devs. He's right in saying this:

Quote:

Except this time there hasn't been a (significant) nerf, and IWAY has stuck around for a pretty long time now. And you're blaming the devs for this lack of creativity/will to *change* in your average PUG? You have no idea how much nerfing IWAY would free up people to finally start experimenting with all kinds of skills you'd never seen before in Tombs. As it stands now, balanced teams are forced to dedicate a number of skillslots specifically for IWAY and those who have a solid defense are just sick and tired of facing IWAY after IWAY... but that's a different story.

Usually a metagame shifts when someone comes up with a build that defeats another regularly, forcing the beaten build to change, to beat the newer build, right? I've personally been in a guild that's run pretty much the exact same tombs build for four months, and beats IWAY 90% of the time-the other 10% would be when we completely lose concentration and make a tactical mistake. In GvG, this would force a metagame change because people review builds often, and can pretty easily try new ones out; not to mention the penalties for carrying an outdated build are very severe. In Tombs? Oh well, the IWAY team says that we lost, let's just go in again. And again. And again. No metagame change there.
Tombs needs metagame changes to spice the place up; if IWAY gets nerfed, I have no doubt a new build will come out, that people will quickly become familiar with, and the whole cycle would start again.

Would more frequent skill rebalances shake up tombs enough that people don't have an urge NOT to play FOTM? I mean that a lot of new players here are crying out that their only choice is IWAY. Even though Izzy would probably crack or something-skill rebalancing is pretty tricky, having seen the thousands of "why did you nerf" threads plopping up every time they happen-I think that a more active metagame in tombs would get more people willing to 'grind' FOTM, instead of experience the stigma goes with playing it-the "oh noes you're playing IWAY, how will you learn to play anything else" syndrome.

Lorien of Mandos · Jan 07, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by antialias02

Ugh. It's incredibly difficult to find a group in Tombs if you're not IWAY or in a Guild. I tried tonight for an hour and a half. I had one group interested in me as a nuker, but when my Me/E appeared on the scene, the guy had the nerve to tell me, "You can't be a nuker, go home, we don't want you," when clearly I knew how my own build worked. (It's a fast cast power nuke build.)

Well, I am not saying you don't know your own build, but you must display some degree of ADAPTABILITY or no group will want you. Granted, they over-reacted when they kicked you instead of just asking you to re-roll to Ele/whatever for the build. In all PvP, however, your individual build means shit if it does not mesh with the other 3 or 7 people to form some kind of cohesive unit. I'd kick a rank 12 from a group if he/she was unwilling to reroll to what was needed for the team.

[EDIT] I am (still) in awe that this thread continues to live (even more in awe that I continue to post in it)

Zeldawind · Jan 08, 2006, 01:22 AM // 01:22

I've quit tombs and GW for a month im on my way back now. But i've noticed the builds havent changed much maybe a bit more hexes a bit more natures renewal.

But leaving that out of sight. My advise for newcomers is to first run the FotM build id even like to give them some advise how to run it. (yes i've run it aswell a little while jsut to learn how to build works and how to counter and at the start i really liked iway). But back to what i wanted to say.
i've made a slight mistake to start PvP in tombs. I thought i've learned in PvP what every profession purpose was but i've quikly learned that some basics are just different in PvP and in PvE. Now im making new character builds i test them first in CA or TA. Mt advise for starters is to start in CA, learn the basics of every profession try out some builds. I have some experience in tombs (atm 451 fame). Of course some of this fame are from iway or ranger spike i've even been a little while whit the smiting although i didn't had enough experience to use it well in tombs. But i did used the same skills in my solo farming builds back then. But my point as a somewhat experienced even i still train in CA on builds, i to know that 4 vs 4 cant be compared to 8 v 8 there are 4 more chars 32 more skills to face against different combinations or better combinations or any other difference, maybe even the difference because of the usage of teamspeak and ventrilo. I learned today how important TS (hmm more another reason), i hda to face Illusionary Pets in a balanced group (my favorite build btw), i noticed how to recognise what their attack was and how to counter it (maybe for more experienced ppl it is easy to counter iP, i dont know), but we didnt used ts and i was dead as 1 of the first persons i was wathcing iP and learned how their attacks worked but because we didnt used TS i was to slow in explaining how to counter them (I'm not a very fast typer whit a lot of errors in my typing). So That is my second advise make sure you have Teamspeak or ventrilo, a microphone isn't really required for it but just make sure you can listen.

Well i do have a other advise but i am not really able to explain it (but i'm gonna try it anyway:P). But try to maintain overview over the battle stay calm and watch how the enemy is moving, even as a iway warrior you should and you can learn from it (of course not as much as playing it yourself) but it still stays a very usefull experience.

So to say it short practice a lot to learn the basics, try to get into a lot of different builds to learn the base of those builds what the weaknesses are what the strong points are, then try to use it against them. And while practicing/playing try to get as much as experience as you can, because i bet even rank 12 or i dunno what rank the highest are, can learn new things from lower ranks or whatever in tombs/GvG/CA/TA from other ppl just by ovserving playing as the enemy team or playing in that team.

I had to get through the hard part aswell but now ive practiced a lot in CA/TA observing from the sideline talking to ppl from GW on msn what the changes are in the month ive quit i still learned some about the PvP in GW, but my most important lesson in the month was: You may run the strongest build there is in Tombs/GvG whitout having fun in the game or be able to work together whit the people your playing whit, you still won't make it to the very top become well known in the GW community. So get friends behind you or/and a Guild (i know LOTS of people have said this before but it is the best advise there is) for the start because they can learn you the most and support you in the hard part.

By the way some other things, í'm really sorry about my grammer at some parts or my vagueness but i haven't really mastered english as my own language so i hope it's somewhat understandable for you people who are reading this:P. But i wish you all good luck and don't forget to have fun while playing the game

Gogetter · Jan 08, 2006, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Ive been playing GW since the 1st E3 beta. I use to play PvP alot then started making my 4 PvE Chars, when i left only a select few people were Rank3. I missed the spiking boom and IWAY spam and now everyones Rank 10+ and im left in the wind

Just spent 5 hours in Tombs and i got 3 Fame. So it only takes somone 300 Hours to get to Rank 3. If You dont sleep and spend evey waking hour u can have a rank 3 in 13 days.

I think if ANet made different districs for levels it would be much easier to get a team. Like one area where you have to be <R3 to enter and a R3+ area.

That way even the new guys can have a fun time playing with other new guys that dont have elite cookie cutter builds.

/Rant

Siliconwafer · Jan 08, 2006, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

That way even the new guys can have a fun time playing with other new guys that dont have elite cookie cutter builds.

But they still have to play AGAINST other players that do have elite cookie cutter builds. I think seperate districts would further separate people, and place more emphasis on rank-and, as we've all seen, rank quite controversial.

But that said, being pitted against far better teams might give people the urge to actually stick around and not ragequit-after all, if the districts are seperated, they've nowhere else to go but back to PvE/Arenas. But I still don't think officially sorting districts by rank is a very good idea.

Former Ruling · Jan 09, 2006, 01:51 AM // 01:51

I say, Don't nerf IWAY. The "master" Tombs-ers can find builds that beat it.

IWAY is the only way a non-rank3+ player can Tombs outside of having friends or a guild. And even then some guilds are Elitists and only let their rank3+ people tomb, and the others have to TA.

The key is, atleast until rank3, to bring a class not many people are bringing.

Right now IWAY teams are DESPERATE for necromancers running orders or tainted.

I don't go in Tombs much, but I see rank3 or even rank 6 IWAY PUGS taking any necro that will come..

And it isn't even that hard. Cap Tainted Flesh or Order of the Vampire (and have the other Order) on any character, make a new PvP necro (either n/mo or n/e depending). You dont even have to have unlocked many necro skills lol. GuildWiki has some common IWAY necro skillsets - get as close as you can.

When the match starts, the rangers are going to set their spirits, and you are going to put up the orders, or cast tainted on everyone. You..don't do much else..thats why it is so easy. Sometimes the tainted trys to cast maelstrom and such, and on maps where people need to run fast (like relic or altar) they'll windborne speed those people, but mostly the necros try to avoid battle and just do thait little job.

Its really an easier way for unexperienced Tombs people to try to get in and get rank.