Curse

ibex333 · Dec 15, 2005, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Hey guys. I didnt know this thread was still alive! I started it a long time ago. I am very greatful for your insight and feedback. It helped me get into more teams and get 160 fame, although I'm still having a lot of trouble in tombs. I guess some things never change... Either way I can see that my post was useful , and many people feel the same way I do about tombs. I hope this thread stays alive and helps people like me. Keep up the good work!

minor · Dec 15, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

I already said my piece on the whole rank IWAY thing just a response to person who said you didn't have to be a good player just because your on a top 50 guild.
I was out with the guild playing as one of the 8 when we beat other teams that were in the top 100 . Anyone who plays high ranked gvg and wins is at least a decent player and should have some way to prove it. All u can do now is say that "My guild wins when i play ...." and no one belives u. Like i said pretty silly when u see the name of the game.....

dbgtboy · Dec 15, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

Ah, noone with any knowledge of the game is afraid of IWAY.

MATH, how the hell can u play iway to rank 9. It just astonishes me about MATH. Why?? Why wouldn't you want to explore all the other skills, builds, and professions that the game has to offer; spike builds, pressure builds, shutdowns, e denial, etc.

Gees you're mising the best part of the game just to get a game fix.

I'll never understand why you'd want to just got about it in such a small bubble of knowledge.

NOTE: One thing I've hated about IWAY is that it has prevented the development of melee heavy builds since everyone carries counters for the only melee build going around. So IWAY has ultimately hurt the game.

we have played all those builds before iway and we find iway the best, its none of your business why we like iway the most, why do people like playing balanced all the time? we play iway for the same reason, IT IS A FUN BUILD!

glenn_rolfe · Dec 15, 2005, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbgtboy

we have played all those builds before iway and we find iway the best, its none of your business why we like iway the most, why do people like playing balanced all the time? we play iway for the same reason, IT IS A FUN BUILD!

What I'm saying is that I'm just dumbfounded that you could play one style of build to rank 9, let alone only one character like a trapper. It's like farming ecto and shards for 20 fissure armours.
When the game has infinitely more variety to offer that people can get trapped in a small niche just amazes me to no end.

Well if the rumoured change to party structure of max 3 of one primary profession gets put in, be interesting to see what happens.

crimsonfilms · Dec 15, 2005, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

It's barely complicated though... it's probably the difference between going 15 in axe mastery as opposed to 16 and using those 20 points + other leftovers for about 6 in the attribute for the spirits

And the difference wit ranger spike or aeromancer? Or E/Mo smite?
Really arguing the complexity of IWAY is moot. The point of FoTM build is to be simple. Why make a complex build when you can win with a simpler one?
This is not art school.

Quote:

but I want semi intelligent people on my team. So to an extent I do care

How does rank equates intelligence?
Intelligence is rather difficult to measure in a normal process let alone trying to do it with a simple expression as rank/fame.

Quote:

very inconvenient for an opposing team when pets are named to "ghostly hero" or "frozen soil." It's pretty low going as far as naming your pets after spirits to make things difficult.

Inconvenience? That is the point of it. They are not there to make it easy for you to win. A winning tactic does not only mean who can spikes the fastest. They are not there for your convenience.

Quote:

My complaint is that decent teams are losing to very poor teams at times just because the build the poor team is running is IWAY

Then run a build that can beat IWAY. Its like complaining to nerf something because you got beat. Its their fault for being beaten as it is the other teams fault if they got stomped by a FoC spike.
Trying to place the burden on the build instead the people who made the wrong choices is rather illogical.

AncientPC · Dec 15, 2005, 10:59 PM // 22:59

IWAY is a simple but effective strategy that allows for PUG groups to win a higher percentage of the time than other builds.

Calling something stupid or noobish simply because it is simple is a poor attitude to take.

PUGs are going to always have a FOTM strategy because it is difficult for players not in Tomb Guilds or have a large circle of Tombing friends.

tomcruisejr · Dec 15, 2005, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

What I'm saying is that I'm just dumbfounded that you could play one style of build to rank 9, let alone only one character like a trapper. It's like farming ecto and shards for 20 fissure armours.
When the game has infinitely more variety to offer that people can get trapped in a small niche just amazes me to no end.

what's wrong with playing one style of build to rank 9?

jimi hendrix was (and is) jimi hendrix because hes a great guitarist, nothing more nothing less. 8D

if you cant reach rank 9 playing only a single class and be a bitch to those who can, you are sour graping. sorry

and i did not reach rank 9 alone. im proud of doing it with very great players, my guildmates.

and whats the fuss about rank? its just a farking emote.

dont worry man, i wont join your rank 9 pug as a "rank 9 mesmer".

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

When the game has infinitely more variety to offer that people can get trapped in a small niche just amazes me to no end.

Well if the rumoured change to party structure of max 3 of one primary profession gets put in, be interesting to see what happens.

sorry man, you just contradicted yourself. there will be no variety if you put limit to something. (3 max primary). what if i want to run an 8 monk primaries, each of them having skills from their secondary just for the kicks/fun? what if i want to run 5 monks and 3 mesmers? what if i want to run 7 monks and 1 mending warrior/monk? what if i want to run 4 eles and 4 monks? etc etc?

;D

this thread has gone from people who are frustrated from not getting into groups because of rank system to people who look down on those people who got their rank because of playing only the build which gave them chance to enjoy the tombs.

its not the fault of iwayers. look above.

do you want challenge? do you want skilled pvp? do you think tombs is everything? look below please.

http://ladder.guildwars.com/

glenn_rolfe · Dec 16, 2005, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

what's wrong with playing one style of build to rank 9?

Well if eating McDonalds every time you eat is your thing, knock yourself out.

yesitsrob · Dec 16, 2005, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

And the difference wit ranger spike or aeromancer? Or E/Mo smite?
Really arguing the complexity of IWAY is moot. The point of FoTM build is to be simple. Why make a complex build when you can win with a simpler one?
This is not art school.

I didn't actually play tombs around the e/mo smite period - but from what I heard it was also a very simple build to run, but that was also helped with Ether Renewal being completely ridiculously good.

There's a massive difference between IWAY and Ranger Spike imo, in IWAY there is immense room for error, while a good IWAY team like MATH is generally going to be more successful than a bad one, a bad one is still capable of winning against superior opponents, just because it's a really simple build to run. I repeat, that my main concern about it, is that a game that is supposed to be about skill, this build suggests otherwise.

In rager spike you have to be reasonably well coordinated. An effective Ranger Spike is MUCH harder to pull off than an effective IWAY against a good team. And on a similar note, a poor IWAY is quite often going to cause you more problems than a poor Ranger Spike. Regardless of what you may believe Infusing Health or RoF'ing against a spike that takes over 2-3 seconds isn't that hard, unless you have the reactions of a 75 year old. And the longer it takes for a spike team to kill you... the greater the advantage you will get as the match goes on. There are no where near as many ranger spikes in the tombs as there are IWAYS and it's because they aren't at all as easy to play.

About taking skills to stop IWAY - a few would be Spiteful Spirit, Empathy, Sympathetic Visage, Aegis, Ward Against Melee.... the thing is, when you don't come up against an IWAY a lot of these skills lose their effectiveness. Spiteful Spirit for instance barely justifies it's eliteness when you're against a spike. Obviously Aegis isn't one of these and is generally a great spell.

Quote:

Inconvenience? That is the point of it. They are not there to make it easy for you to win. A winning tactic does not only mean who can spikes the fastest. They are not there for your convenience.

And back to the whole guild wars is about skill thing.... this "tactic" isn't - /namepet is not skill

Appologies if the english in my post is poor - i haven't slept

Navaros · Dec 17, 2005, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

MATH, how the hell can u play iway to rank 9. It just astonishes me about MATH. Why?? Why wouldn't you want to explore all the other skills, builds, and professions that the game has to offer; spike builds, pressure builds, shutdowns, e denial, etc.

Gees you're mising the best part of the game just to get a game fix.

I'll never understand why you'd want to just got about it in such a small bubble of knowledge.

Ok well I'm a r9 MATH guy now and I'll answer this in regards to myself. Just speaking for my own self with the following comments.

Prior to being in MATH, I was in Apathy for 4 months. Apathy players are top of the line, among the best of the best. Yet with Apathy I could not get to r9 by playing in Guild groups alone.

Why? Because the best players only have a certain time amount of time during the day to play. Let's say 3 hours per day. Which is understandable because people have wives, kids etc. However, given that reality, that's not a lot of time with which to earn fame.

Out of that 3 hours, maybe 1.5 of it is wasted on test builds that lose a few rounds in. I say wasted, because IMO test builds are pointless. The point of Tombs is to win and get a tiger IMO, not waste time on using losing builds.

I don't see how the "best" part of the game is losing 3 rounds in time and time again with test builds. Losing is not fun. Winning is much more fun.

In addition to that, waiting for everyone to reroll in a diverse group takes eons and eons of time. Totally boring.

In summary, why I recommend IWAYing to r9 is:

IWAY is a winning build = fun.

IWAY does not take eons to make a group = fun.

Exploring different builds wastes lots of time and leads to mucho losing = not fun.

dbgtboy · Dec 17, 2005, 02:38 AM // 02:38

i recommend iwaying to r12 lol, it CAN be done, iway is hands down the best way to gain fame, some guildies that play a lot are making over 100 fame per day, while other guildies that dont play a lot (like me, approx 2-3 hours a day) make around 50, it takes time to form the groups though so thats about an hour and a half of actual tombing. If i was playing balanced i would be making what, 10 - 20 fame per day? (1 hour for group, probably not getting to hoh, 2 runs or so)

Manfred · Dec 17, 2005, 03:11 AM // 03:11

"The point of Tombs is to win and get a tiger"
And that's the difference between people who love IWAY and people who don't like IWAY. Being ub3r1337 is all well and good, but farming fame != ub3r1337!7ud3.

Navaros · Dec 17, 2005, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manfred

farming fame != ub3r1337!7ud3.

I find this really ironic because MATH does not fame farm, and neither do 95% of other IWAY players. Yet everyone still incorrectly refers to what they do as fame farming. I would know what real fame farming is, because I'm the guy who invented actual fame farming with IWAY. In fact MATH specifically told me when I joined that I'm not allowed to farm fame with MATH guildies cuz they don't farm fame in MATH.

Most IWAY players and MATH Guild play every map and try to win Halls (and often do) with IWAY. That's not fame farming, that's simply beating inferior teams and being fairly rewarded for that success.

Everyone needs to stop labelling players who play every map with IWAY parties as fame farmers, because that's != to fame farming.

If such unfair and inaccurate derogatory labels against non-farming IWAY parties continue, then perhaps a derogatory label of equal value should be applied to those who do not accumulate much fame for playing in other legitimate, non-IWAY builds.

Mighti · Dec 17, 2005, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbgtboy

iway is hands down the best way to gain fame, some guildies that play a lot are making over 100 fame per day, while other guildies that dont play a lot (like me, approx 2-3 hours a day) make around 50

Well, we easily make about 100-200 a day with a normal decent balanced build...
I think iway'ing is pointless because it sucks on altarmaps but that's what tombs are all about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

dont worry man, i wont join your rank 9 pug as a "rank 9 mesmer".

Relieved to hear that. Well, I would never let a MATH or rP Person join my team anyway.

dbgtboy · Dec 17, 2005, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mighti

Well, we easily make about 100-200 a day with a normal decent balanced build...
Relieved to hear that. Well, I would never let a MATH or rP Person join my team anyway.

yeah, and how many hours does that take??? unless i join a balanced and hold hoh for 5 matches on the first run, i would never make over what i am making with iway, and MATH would never want to join any teams that we always beat anyways...

Maagus · Dec 17, 2005, 01:45 PM // 13:45

I understand that IWAY is good for newcomers to Tombs. They can learn at least basics of maps. But going with IWAY to r6 or even 9 or higher (playing all the time only one mindless build) ? What will you do when IWAY will be the past and the new FoTM comes (lets say surge mesmers for example) ? You will apply for a ranked team with your mesmer (unlocked by playing iway) claiming that you are r9 ? But in fact you have played nothing but w/r with pet or trapper until that rank so you are as good as first-time mesmer with knowledge of maps only and people will pick you instead of truly experienced mesmer just because you are claiming your rank is 9.
Being versatile (know how to play other classes and have experience and overview about their style of play, builds and skills) > specialization.

Navaros · Dec 17, 2005, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Well, there is an old saying: "Jack of all trades, Master of none" and it certainly applies to Guild Wars. A good player may be be "pretty good" at all classes, but it is doubtful that he would be a true Master of any of them if he tried to play them all.

I disagree with my MATH comrade to some extent when he said fame should not carry to other classes, because I feel that 4665 fame is enough time/experience in which to master at least two different classes. It is not however, enough time/experience to master 6 different classes. This is probably another reason why IWAY is so vastly successful: because non-IWAY pugs have people rerolling to whatever class the group happens to need, despite the fact the the rerollers are nowhere close to being Masters of those classes.

As for claiming to be a r9 on other FOTMs: that's not such a big deal. The reason why FOTMs are FOTMs is because they are simple to play, and do not generally require a full mastery of the class being played. Hence it is highly likely that any r9 player would be vastly better than anyone else on a new FOTM build, because chances are the others in the pool of potential players are not masters either, and the r9 would be a better overall player.

tomcruisejr · Dec 17, 2005, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mighti

Relieved to hear that. Well, I would never let a MATH or rP Person join my team anyway.

well, we are diverse. lots of people in our guild are great healers, necros etc. navaros for one has proven himself to the pvp community long time ago. as ive said, before we played iway, we played almost all the classes.

i was just speaking for myself. dont generalize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

I disagree with my MATH comrade to some extent when he said fame should not carry to other classes, because I feel that 4665 fame is enough time/experience in which to master at least two different classes. It is not however, enough time/experience to master 6 different classes. This is probably another reason why IWAY is so vastly successful: because non-IWAY pugs have people rerolling to whatever class the group happens to need, despite the fact the the rerollers are nowhere close to being Masters of those classes.

opinion respected, mate

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maagus

What will you do when IWAY will be the past and the new FoTM comes (lets say surge mesmers for example) ? You will apply for a ranked team with your mesmer (unlocked by playing iway) claiming that you are r9 ? But in fact you have played nothing but w/r with pet or trapper until that rank so you are as good as first-time mesmer with knowledge of maps only and people will pick you instead of truly experienced mesmer just because you are claiming your rank is 9.
Being versatile (know how to play other classes and have experience and overview about their style of play, builds and skills) > specialization.

as ive said, we played IWAY like hell and we almost know all the tricks of the trade. we beat almost all of the teams that we face. same concept. if we decided to play a new working build or FOTM, we'll just play it like hell and "specialize". and our experience from iway as warriors, trappers, necros will always be there.

its not enough to know how to play a class. you must be the best of it. its bs if someone comes to and say, "i can play that class"

again, only views.

Maagus · Dec 17, 2005, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

Well, there is an old saying: "Jack of all trades, Master of none" and it certainly applies to Guild Wars. A good player may be be "pretty good" at all classes, but it is doubtful that he would be a true Master of any of them if he tried to play them all.

Well, I don´t agree with this at all. The true Master of one class must be able to know how other classes are played. This will provide you the necessary knowledge about weaknesses, strengths, and style of play of your opponent.

For example : I learn most of the weaknesses of class I play by being outplayed. I realized how dangerous is for example Wild Blow when it has been used on me. Then when building warrior build I know the Wild Blow potential. The same goes for with spike and antispike. To find out what can shut down spike the most effectively best solution for me is to play the spike and find out what will shut me down.

Maagus · Dec 17, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

its bs if someone comes to and say, "i can play that class"

It is but it is not rare that you invite someone to the group (who claims to be rX and play all) and then in fight you find out that he plays the desired class for the first time and farmed his way up by playing with only one class (why is he applying for another then ?).