Curse

Kabale · Dec 14, 2005, 12:15 PM // 12:15

2. U can get it by iway and not really know much about the game.

Fill up your friends lists with ranked non-iwayers while you still can, until they [anet] make IWAY obsolete, by which time there will be tons of ex-warrior, wannabe-other-things running around with r6+ and not have a clue about jack shit.

Sephir Demange · Dec 14, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

This thread is just scary. It has steamrolled through absolutely everything that is wrong with tombs, and alot of things that aren't necessarily wrong. I see no end in sight. The rank system DOES in fact help when screening for particular players. However, IWAY is truly throwing the whole system off way too much for it to be reliable for much longer. The other day I saw a r9 IWAY'er. All 9 ranks from IWAY. I sincerely considered just quitting pvp and going back to the sane AI on Prophets Path. Tombs isn't much fun when most of the teams are the exact same thing. And all of the american districts are nothing but IWAY and MF groups forming, so nobody ever learns anything. But is all this going to convince anyone to stop what they are doing? Are we truly going to get new comers to pvp groups and stop the evil IWAY machine in it's tracks by sitting around eloquently discussing the damage it is causing to the pvp metagame? I doubt it, I'm going to look for a group now.

crimsonfilms · Dec 14, 2005, 06:25 PM // 18:25

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All 9 ranks from IWAY.

Point? So? If they win with IWAY and probably even and hold the halls - does it matter? They can beat other IWAYs and probably a lot of the generic builds. More power to them.

I mean I can get Rank 9 as being a monk or ranger, then do a PUG as a mesmer. I will be clueless as a IWAY farmer trying to do Ele spike.

The argument about IWAY rank farmers are useless players is utterly silly when you can apply the same logic to a ranger spiker, edge bomber, minion master, etc.

And some of my examples are worse. I mean edge bomb or minion master? Depending who you are in that build you do nothing except stand in one place and cast 1 MAYBE 2 skills. You dont need to find target, avoid traps, time a disruptive chop, etc.

So please, the IWAY is bad for rank system is selective reasoning. IWAY is no worse than any other FoTM builds out there. It is just easier to use.

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My personal problem i played with a top 50 guild and have no way of showing that i can play well on a good team caz u get no fame for gvg;

Playing with a rank 50 guild does not mean you are any good either.

I do agree, rank or somekind of reward is needed for GvG in order to show experience.

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Too all the r3+ ppl here i understand that U are better than most if u earned it the hard the way but alot of ppl didn't so using rank to define a players worth is just silly.

Exactly stop defining players based on rank. It is ONE of the many tools you can use to guage skill and experience. Who cares if a Rank 9 player flashes his emote before THK?

I will repeat - rank is not the problem - it is how people are using it is the problem.
Its like saying a level 20 PvE player must be good. You know that is wrong.

But make no mistake about it - RANK DOES MEAN SOMETHING.

Sephir Demange · Dec 14, 2005, 07:45 PM // 19:45

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Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

Point? So? If they win with IWAY and probably even and hold the halls - does it matter? They can beat other IWAYs and probably a lot of the generic builds. More power to them.

I mean I can get Rank 9 as being a monk or ranger, then do a PUG as a mesmer. I will be clueless as a IWAY farmer trying to do Ele spike.

Ummm, a VAST majority of rank 9 players have touched base on every role on their way to rank 9. The problem is you have people accumulating 4665 fame from A SINGLE CLASS. That is freaking retarded. Thats why there even ARE all r9+ groups. Because while it is feasable to amass 1000 fame (Rank 6) by running a single fame farming build, it is a safe bet to assume that a rank 9 is a bit more versatile. I don't know about you but I would NEVER play a single class through four thousand some odd fame. That sounds more like work than play. Also, the scary part about IWAY is that it is a relatively recent inception. Meaning people are attempting to farm apalling amounts of fame in roughly the past few months. We've seen a HUGE influx in r6+ players, coupled with an equally HUGE devaluing of the average r6. Why? Because IWAY doesn't teach you CRAP about the game. Nothing at all. You see something, you kill it. If you're a good iway you'll have some team coordination. Congrats, you've now covered roughly 2 proffessions. But then again perhaps not, because most decent builds need W/R's that can intelligently call and stick specific targets at specific times. Good luck learning that from IWAY, or for that matter any other build you feel like playing for all 4665 fame. Go play some other game for the love of God and let us all have fun with this games myriad combinations of skills and character classes.

crimsonfilms · Dec 14, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

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The problem is you have people accumulating 4665 fame from A SINGLE CLASS.

The best monks are just that - monks 24/7 with some exceptions.

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it is a safe bet to assume that a rank 9 is a bit more versatile.

No *you* assumed that.
Rank is amount of wins in Tombs - nothing more, nothing less. It does not equal how you communicate in TS/Vent, how well you can call, recognize builds in seconds, coordinate positioning, can create builds, etc.

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coupled with an equally HUGE devaluing of the average r6. Why?

They have not devauled anyhting. It is the players who put too much value in rank to begin with has inflated rank - IWAY is just correcting it - the same way E/Mo smite did. Rank is something not everything.
Yes IWAY allows easy fame farming. So what - it is no different from any FoTM builds (easy non complex builds).

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If you're a good iway you'll have some team coordination.

And winning or losing with IWAY is not learning?
If you lose check if you have the right spirits, the right axe skills, attribute allocation, spirit location, right caller etc.
If you beat up on some "balance build"? If they got trashed then its their fault. Not like IWAY build is a secret. If you got smashed by IWAY why would a noob spend time learning that mechanics of your build?

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But then again perhaps not, because most decent builds need W/R's that can intelligently call and stick specific targets at specific times.

IWAY has become from a simple 8 W/R to a more complex build that includes trapping, 1 or 2 different necros and in some instances Monks. IWAY has evolved. To me it seems IWAY people are learning.

If I was bold enough I would even say people not accepting the reality of IWAY are those not learning. Come on - how hard is it to kill 2 warriors in the beginning and putting frozen soil down?
If those intelligent people have learned anything, they should be capable of creating an anti IWAY build thus making IWAY obsolete right - thus no more IWAY farming?
Unless IWAY needs to be nerfed but that is not wha tyou are arguing about.

Sir Aurik · Dec 14, 2005, 09:04 PM // 21:04

sephir i acually agree with you, IWAY has thrown off the rank system, and i hate it when ppl say the hold halls with IWAY, theres no need to lie, u might hold 2 in a row, but never more then that, thats not holding, thats just 2 in a row. The rank 9 IWAY'er had to have bought his account off ebay, noone u can get 4665 fame with IWAY...

Sephir Demange · Dec 14, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06

I never said that IWAY was ineffective did I? I simply believe that it sincerely cramps the amount of variation that Guild Wars has available. I also simply stated that it restricts learning how to play other builds. Ummmm, and I play often with r9 groups, and in my experience they are all very versatile. They spend time playing to their preferences, but most are able to play anywhere. Also, IWAY has learned only 1 thing, and that is how to run IWAY better. Big friggen deal, 1 team build in a game that engenders countless numbers of combinations. IWAY may have evolved but that doesn't speak anything for the individual players learning anything outside of the little IWAY box. I never even said that IWAY should be nerf, all I said was it is messing up the rank system because people hit r6 with minimal experience. It stunts progress and original thinking. I do not begrudge people who feel like running it when they have a limited amount of time before work or school or something like that, but people milk it for everything they can. What is the point of playing a game like this with all these proffessions if you only use one or two proffessions? I just don't understand the motivation. There are several reasons that may be present for running IWAY. 1.) Lack of time to put together a solid group. (this reason I can sympathize with, when I am pressed for time I prefer to put on an FPS. Others run IWAY I am fine with that.) 2.) They lack the ability or friends to get them into decent balanced groups. This screws up the rank system because they run iway until they have the rank to get into a good group, but don't know how to play other positions. 3.) They enjoy the rush of quick battles that result in what I can only assume is a majority of wins. To this I can only say that holding HoH is much more fun than the feeling of quick battles. Also, if you are only interested in quick battles go play an RTS deathmatch, or go play some FPS. This is all I could come up with, if anyone has any different reasons, feel free to enlighten me. And please, read the post thouroughly before criticising my post or my opinion, thank you.

Sephir Demange · Dec 14, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

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Originally Posted by Sir Aurik

sephir i acually agree with you, IWAY has thrown off the rank system, and i hate it when ppl say the hold halls with IWAY, theres no need to lie, u might hold 2 in a row, but never more then that, thats not holding, thats just 2 in a row. The rank 9 IWAY'er had to have bought his account off ebay, noone u can get 4665 fame with IWAY...

Is it so wierd that you'd agree with me Famous? Also, the r9 IWAY'er was a member of the guild MATH, who are notorius for running nothing but IWAY in tombs, now I may be judging them too harshly, but I'd say it's a safe bet that they did it IWAY.

geminisaga · Dec 14, 2005, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Originally Posted by Sir Aurik
sephir i acually agree with you, IWAY has thrown off the rank system, and i hate it when ppl say the hold halls with IWAY, theres no need to lie, u might hold 2 in a row, but never more then that, thats not holding, thats just 2 in a row. The rank 9 IWAY'er had to have bought his account off ebay, noone u can get 4665 fame with IWAY...

nah i won and held hall with iway 5 times in row and its during miday weekend , so stop the bs about it :P.

Sephir Demange · Dec 14, 2005, 10:58 PM // 22:58

*sigh*

Livpooolsupafayn · Dec 14, 2005, 11:22 PM // 23:22

IWAY is effective because its an idiot proof build, requires no timing, and hardly any co-ordination.

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And winning or losing with IWAY is not learning?
If you lose check if you have the right spirits, the right axe skills, attribute allocation, spirit location

Yes and making sure you have 6 spirits between 6 people and lay them down one time at the begining of the battle requires a ton of thought and skill

Other spirits such as fertile and frozen actually do require timing in order for them to be effective, which in turn requires battle awareness.

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right caller etc.

IWAY groups do not need to call targets or even follow them in order to be successful. You can easily smash your way few the first 2-3 rounds without anyone calling targets. Repeat 2-3 times and youve made yourself close to 20 fame.

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If those intelligent people have learned anything, they should be capable of creating an anti IWAY build thus making IWAY obsolete right - thus no more IWAY farming?

There are plenty of anti IWAY builds out there, everyone knows them but why should we be forced to play a build that specifically counters IWAY and is mediocre against another balanced build or spike team? MY build are contunually pushing further away from anti iwayness, because I know that the real threat comes from those R9 + teams that you encounter in halls.

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Also, the r9 IWAY'er was a member of the guild MATH, who are notorius for running nothing but IWAY in tombs, now I may be judging them too harshly, but I'd say it's a safe bet that they did it IWAY.

Ive encountered a few MATH players in team arenas trying to run balanced builds, using mesmers, monks etc... All I have to say is ROFL

dbgtboy · Dec 14, 2005, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Aurik

sephir i acually agree with you, IWAY has thrown off the rank system, and i hate it when ppl say the hold halls with IWAY, theres no need to lie, u might hold 2 in a row, but never more then that, thats not holding, thats just 2 in a row. The rank 9 IWAY'er had to have bought his account off ebay, noone u can get 4665 fame with IWAY...

MATH has held halls for 5 games before and has held for 3 many times, you can get r9 from iway lol, if you can get r6 from it, why cant you get r9? MATH has 6 r9 now i think and many are VERY VERY close to it (under 500 fame).

Edit: MATH doesnt do team arenas lol, only tombs, why are you all afraid of iway lol? just take it from me right now, if i am able to make 50-100 fame a day with iway, why will i join a balanced group? Most iwayers stay with iway, not many start doing balanced after r6, also, just because someone iways doesnt mean he is a noob and cannot play any other class, before people even started iway they mustve played at least 2 other classes before it and understand them pretty well. Ive seen members of Prav, sE, and VIKI playing iway before, sometimes even with us, so are they now noobs?

yesitsrob · Dec 14, 2005, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Playing IWAY won't teach you anything, if you lose with it, that doesn't mean you know why you lost with it - I could probably tell them they lost because some necromancer echod a spiteful on two warriors and destroyed them, but most of them won't take it onboard, they'll quite happily frenzy through more of them.

I've played in an IWAY team once, they were absolutely terrible players yet managed to beat a guild team that has slaughtered our guild team before - who are also one hell of a lot better than this IWAY team I was on. You can't judge people by rank at all - people on this team could probably get about 10 fame an hour by pure luck - that's 1800 fame a month if they played 6 hours a day, and they'd still be crap.

There's the whole argument it's so easy to beat, it really is I suppose. Doesn't change the fact everyone and their mother is running it in tombs, just ruining the game a little, and you have to put some thought into how you'll deal with it in builds, which sucks in a way as you'll probably have to adjust what would under normal cirumstances be a good build... and top guilds do still lose to IWAYS in tombs, again we've been beaten by teams in tombs who beat us because they were better, who have then gone on to lose to an IWAY the next game when they sure as hell weren't the less skilled team. Throwing out a load of spirits which can damage others builds isn't hard. Finding these spirits amongst a bunch of god damn wolves called pet - natures renewal is.... how about being able to click on the spirit you have on you to target it? that would be nice...

What really sucks is when some of the higher ranked guilds run it too, it's not an IWAY... sure. Being coordinated and somewhat good at the game doesn't make it not IWAY.

It's not really like other flavour builds either
EOE bomb isn't really hard to handle when you know it's coming.
Spike builds that aren't perfect are easily beaten with Infuse Health.

In fairness, we do beat the greater majority of IWAYs we play, the annoying thing is though, some are closer than we'd like, and if these same opponents weren't playing IWAY they'd be flawless.

MATH is a weird scenario, they are good players but they really shouldn't be so sad as to be running IWAY or a "pet build" - bit too much of a pick up group style thing for a high ranked guild to be doing in my opinion.

crimsonfilms · Dec 15, 2005, 12:47 AM // 00:47

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Yes and making sure you have 6 spirits between 6 people and lay them down one time at the begining of the battle requires a ton of thought and skill

Depending on your IWAY variation - yes. With 2 necros and 1 trapper you are down to 5 W/R. Considering none of the spirits are on the primary attribute (Axe) it becomes more complicated. Nobody wants to bring a spirit that last 20 seconds.

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IWAY groups do not need to call targets or even follow them in order to be successful.

Thus more proof that IWAY is as efficient, if not more efficient, than a balance build. If you got rocked by a non coordinated build - IWAY or not - why blame the build that beats you? Isn't that backwards logic?

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why should we be forced to play a build that specifically counters IWAY and is mediocre against another balanced build or spike team?

If you don't want to play anti IWAY, dont play it. Its your perogative not to - your choice. As is its people's choice to run IWAY.

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Playing IWAY won't teach you anything, if you lose with it, that doesn't mean you know why you lost with it

This is such a fallacy. Even if we accept this as truth, so people don't learn anything - so what? Last time I checked people are there to farm/win.
I mean I don't think iQ is running a ranger spike build to elevate our collective intelligence. I love iQ and all (rooting for them in fact along with Te and SNA) but last time I checked they don't tell people their GvG build openly.

Do you really care about the intelligence of the community?

So lets get off the "IWAY is dumbing down the community argument." Its a build not your parents.

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how about being able to click on the spirit you have on you to target it? that would be nice...

Isn't that anti-intelligence? That promotes laziness also. Why not add a feature to find who gave me the hex while we are at it.

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Spike builds that aren't perfect are easily beaten with Infuse Health.

Infuse health is never been THE solution to spike. It is one of many. It only works if the user is good at it.

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In fairness, we do beat the greater majority of IWAYs we play, the annoying thing is though, some are closer than we'd like, and if these same opponents weren't playing IWAY they'd be flawless.

Huh? You are complaining because you did not get a flawless.

yesitsrob · Dec 15, 2005, 01:19 AM // 01:19

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Depending on your IWAY variation - yes. With 2 necros and 1 trapper you are down to 5 W/R. Considering none of the spirits are on the primary attribute (Axe) it becomes more complicated. Nobody wants to bring a spirit that last 20 seconds.

a lot of spirits, winnowing and predatory season for example, don't even need that many points in their associated attribute to be that effective. It's barely complicated though... it's probably the difference between going 15 in axe mastery as opposed to 16 and using those 20 points + other leftovers for about 6 in the attribute for the spirits

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Do you really care about the intelligence of the community?

When I want to form a PUG, now this may come as a shock... but I want semi intelligent people on my team. So to an extent I do care

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Isn't that anti-intelligence? That promotes laziness also. Why not add a feature to find who gave me the hex while we are at it.

how about we don't.

My complaint here is that things can be made very inconvenient for an opposing team when pets are named to "ghostly hero" or "frozen soil." It's pretty low going as far as naming your pets after spirits to make things difficult. How my suggestion is the anti-intelligence I don't know... I just don't want to be playing where's waldo in a tombs battle that's all

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Infuse health is never been THE solution to spike. It is one of many. It only works if the user is good at it.

Where the hell did I say it was the _only_ one? And the user doesn't have to be that good at it... with a 1/4 second casting time you get a pretty decent time to react and plenty of time to heal yourself or get healed after, and the poorer the spike, the more time you have to react, which was sort of my point about poor spikes being easy to stop. I am aware there are other things to counter spikes such as RoF - or "Shields up" for ranger spikes

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Huh? You are complaining because you did not get a flawless.

My complaint is that decent teams are losing to very poor teams at times just because the build the poor team is running is IWAY - if this opposing team was running any other build, they wouldn't have a chance of beating these teams. Anet say how the game is about skill - and with IWAYs being around I think that is far from the truth

Kariston The Swift · Dec 15, 2005, 01:40 AM // 01:40

There is only 2 ways to get rid of Iway and fame farmers.
1. Nerf Iway(I don't really agree with this as something will replace it so its really only a short-term solution.)

2. Make getting into groups easier(Think about it. Iway is so widely used because people want to get their rank up to prove themselves to a team asking for a Rx+).

Whenever I make a group I ask for people on Sissy Boys vent that way I can atleast talk them through the build if they are unexperienced. Also going to Sissy Boys vent's LFG channel helps alot as they 75% of the time they don't ask for rank.

glenn_rolfe · Dec 15, 2005, 02:03 AM // 02:03

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Originally Posted by dbgtboy

Edit: MATH doesnt do team arenas lol, only tombs, why are you all afraid of iway lol? just take it from me right now, if i am able to make 50-100 fame a day with iway, why will i join a balanced group?

Ah, noone with any knowledge of the game is afraid of IWAY.

MATH, how the hell can u play iway to rank 9. It just astonishes me about MATH. Why?? Why wouldn't you want to explore all the other skills, builds, and professions that the game has to offer; spike builds, pressure builds, shutdowns, e denial, etc.

Gees you're mising the best part of the game just to get a game fix.

I'll never understand why you'd want to just got about it in such a small bubble of knowledge.

NOTE: One thing I've hated about IWAY is that it has prevented the development of melee heavy builds since everyone carries counters for the only melee build going around. So IWAY has ultimately hurt the game.

Sephir Demange · Dec 15, 2005, 03:34 AM // 03:34

I am trying one more time to explain this, then I'm never coming back to this thread that God has so obviously forsaken. No one ever said that IWAY is ineffective. It is effective in farming half serious, or test builds, or better yet other IWAY's. If it wasn't effective we wouldn't have all these r6 and *gasp* r9 IWAY'ers around. The problem is not with the efficiency of the build it's just that it severely limits the atmosphere of tombs. Why would I come on tombs to own a total of no less than 8 IWAY teams on the way to Halls? It's boring as hell. And if I want to try something different, and people need to think about some NEW roles to fill on the battlefield, I have to contend with the odd IWAY winning while everyone is getting used to something new, and then to have some arrogant simple minded IWAY'ers gloat over beating us. It's not hard to beat, it's just so damn inconvienient. And also, if it isn't obvious, it's far too overbearing. I can't step foot in an american district without running into nothing but IWAY groups forming. NOTHING ELSE. And this infection is spreading to the International districts as well. It's just depressing, I didn't buy IWAY Wars, I bought Guild Wars.

glenn_rolfe · Dec 15, 2005, 03:52 AM // 03:52

[QUOTE=Sephir Demange] And if I want to try something different, and people need to think about some NEW roles to fill on the battlefield, I have to contend with the odd IWAY winning while everyone is getting used to something new, and then to have some arrogant simple minded IWAY'ers gloat over beating us. QUOTE]

Ah yeah, how much do you hate that. We were messing with a heavy degen build yesterday and got rolled by a fissure armour IWAY group (we deliberately didn't run any of the typical IWAY counters to test what changes we would need as we develop the build). And what did we get; "We pwned you nubs with your gay build...hahhahaha....go back to arenas with your nub hexes"
And we didn't even say anything to them to start it off. This is typical mentality of what a brainless build brings to Guild Wars. And in the overall context of this thread, that's the most frustrating thing with tombs.

Actually, what am I still doing in this thread............dunno

tomcruisejr · Dec 15, 2005, 05:57 AM // 05:57

i got rank 9 only playing as an "IWAY" trapper. is it retarded? i dont think so.
playing only a class (aka specialization) imo is better than playing 6 classes in gaining r9.

saying "r9 mesmer" when you got your rank playing "32% monk, 22% warrior, 1% mesmer, the rest spirit spammer" is more retarded than me saying "rank 9 trapper", aint it?

anyhow, well different people choose different ways to play their game. some wants to torture themselves and some just wanna relax and have fun and win and get fame and sigils. we chose the latter. why? people have lives to lead. as people have pointed, why waste time in making groups that will get 4-5 fame per run? its a no brainer.

some of us [MATH] do iway coz of emotes, which is a reward. but most of us do treat iway seriously. its not rinse, repeat etc anymore. old math players orient its new members (with exception of new veterans of course), give them some pointers on how to run iway successfully. with the help of experience, we learned to deal with most balanced and almost all the iway groups that we encounter.

i personally think that some of its members will quit iway in the future. in fact, most ex members (which left coz theyre sick of iway) are in very decent quality guilds now.

as most balanced players said, iway is easy to counter, which is true. if you cant counter an iway group, it doesnt mean its overpowered. double check your skill bars, or your ranked balanced pick ups.

we just play serious iway. so serious that we even talk about how the other teams beat us and stuff and observe and learn from other teams. yep, our fame count and ranks prove it. if you do things seriously, chance of success is higher.

i still dont believe that higher /rank = uber pro leet you are. but since almost everybody is running iway, /rank kinda helps filtering good iways from bad iways

.

if the rank system will be revamped, it should be categorized according to the classes that you play. say you got fame as a mesmer, that fame shouldnt be carried if you play necro.

and the heck, why bother finding ranked pickups if you got a guild and friendslist?

cheers.

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Originally Posted by Livpooolsupafayn

Ive encountered a few MATH players in team arenas trying to run balanced builds, using mesmers, monks etc... All I have to say is ROFL

before we were IWAYers, we were (and are) mesmers, rangers, monks, necros, eles, etc doing randoms, teams, pve, pvp, gvg (1 member is an ex member of an alpha test guild, lotsa members are ex members of then-decent guilds). what's wrong with MATH doing some "balanced" in team arenas? eh? (yo, teh, i do some randoms, team arena :P)