Curse

wongba · Nov 14, 2005, 09:27 PM // 21:27

while i understand the chicken or the egg problem of having no fame in tombs, i also understand the mentality of fame requirements for groups. there's a reason that rank 9 pugs repeatedly hold halls. (i'm still rank 5 btw, and i don't form my own groups so i'd still have lots of problems getting into a group on my own)

understanding ur skillbar is only a small piece of doing well in tombs. u may get lucky and get to halls a few times w/o really knowing how u got there, but to get there and hold it regularly u really have to understand what tactics u need to employ in many different situations. that kind of knowledge comes only from experience in tombs itself. this wouldn't be a problem if they had relic runs and altar maps outside of tombs (team arena type), but there is currently no other way to get this knowledge, not even gvg. ppl who don't have experience in tombs maps won't know things like when they should let the hero die, when not to kill an enemy priest, or even more basically what path to run when capping the flag. ppl who make their own builds might not have included relic run or altar camping/denial skills and will get slaughtered on those maps. i consider myself very lucky to have gotten an invite from a guild whose members knew what they were doing who also tomb every night.

the only thing i can say is that u need to try to find a promising guild to join that tombs often. i doubt that i could have learned so much about the tactics to employ in random pugs. arena experience is simply not enuf and i'm not saying this strictly out of elitism. i realize ppl have gotten to rank 6 thru iway and they may not have a deep understanding of the game, but they'll almost certainly know the goals of each map and generally how to achieve them. given the choice between two otherwise unknown quantities, if u were a group former, would u choose a rank 0 or a rank 6 for ur team?

Kariston The Swift · Nov 14, 2005, 09:36 PM // 21:36

You guys should start a thread for people who aren't R3+ and want to do Tombs. That way you are almost guareenteed a team.

Zelnox · Nov 14, 2005, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Sometimes, you have to be flexible and use skills to complement a team. Certain skills/combinations work fine to a certain extent in Arena, but 8v8 is very different. Being flexible can help join balanced builds more easily.

borkbork · Nov 15, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Yes exactly... I remember asking for an earth WARDER, and the non-ranked pickup insisted on running Obsidian Flame + Stone daggers + Eruption + Quake + Aftershock (without a res sig too!)

He kept trying to argue with me that his earth setup was better than the warding setup, so I had to flat out tell him - run the warding build, or just leave.

Another time, I asked for a Energy Denial mesmer, and again... I get some non-ranked mesmer that insisted that his Migraine + interrupt build was far superior to whatever mesmer builds were out there. And he apparently could interrupt Martyr without any help.

Blah.

Entropius · Nov 15, 2005, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Actually, what I'd like to see is a random team build system. Eight people hit "random team" and are then shown a screen showing the current skills of each, with a chat box. You have five minutes to discuss what you're bringing -- for instance, ensure that you have enough hex removal, etc. Classes, however, are fixed. After each match, if four out of the eight people request, you get another little while to fiddle with skills. ("OK, this isn't working. Can someone bring Smite Foobar?")

And, once you win five matches, you get thrown in Tombs.

If they choose, teams can elect to stay together after they lose, but once they win five (regardless of the number of losses), they wind up in Tombs.

People who leave are replaced by another random person from the pool. Tombs groups who lose a player to lag are replaced by someone from the pool of as similar a class as possible to the one who dropped, and are shown their new teammates' skillsets and given until the beginning of the next match to devise their own. Tombs groups with insufficient members (who elect not to use henchies) are likewise given random people from the pool.

Kariston The Swift · Nov 15, 2005, 12:57 AM // 00:57

But then the Devs would have to make a standard on what each team should be. 3 monks 3 Casters 2 Warriors etc etc.

Entropius · Nov 15, 2005, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Why would they? Nobody said that you needed 3 monks, 3 casters, and 2 warriors to make a good group.

Teams that just happened to land unlucky combinations of classes (or bad players) wouldn't make it to Tombs. The system is self-correcting. You land in a group of eight and discover that you've only got one monk -- deal with it! Bring self-heals, make the best of it, and you might just find that you do better than you think.

Kariston The Swift · Nov 15, 2005, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Isn't this the same as joining a blind invite pug group? We all know how those go...

tomcruisejr · Nov 15, 2005, 06:11 AM // 06:11

for starters who want to explore and be familiar with the tombs maps and how to win it, IWAY (with traps mod) is the best way. it doesnt require rocket science to form and run one. no need to ts nor vent. just know your roles and cooperate with your group.

you can be a warrior, a trapper, death necro or orders necro.

4 individual builds to choose from. good about this build is there are no monks to watch your back (unless your orders necro laced his skill bar with some monk spells). its the most challenging build to run, imho coz in this build, you need to self heal and you will not be watched by overhealing monks

. you will learn to be independent while working in a team. and most of all, the only defense is your offense so any errors will lead to your teams demise. and this build, the general rule of bringing a res signet is strictly followed.

i first played an orders necro when i first immersed with iway.tried it 2x then shifted to trapping. i only wanted that deer emote but from 15 fames (which i got early weeks after release before i shifted to fulltime PVE), now i got that cute wolf, almost all of the fames from trapping for iways. this build taught not only how to win a map or where is the relic and stuff, but also some important strategies,

.

making contacts helps if you wanna have a constant tombs (iway) party. i suggest you to be friendly with people. if you fail in a match, dont yell or insult people. just be patient with them. do 1-2-5 times run. while you learn from your mistakes and be familiar with your roles, you notice that youre getting comfortable with each other. who knows, maybe theyll be your constant tombs buddies or guildmates in the future.

the people that i first played with when we were losing the first or second or third maps i kept in my list. now theyre my guildmates and we do the tombs when most of us are online. whenever we play, there are no double talkings coz we already know our roles.

iway (with traps) is a good headstart. dont mind if some elitist say that its noobish, simple and mindless.

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." - Leonardo DaVinci

there is more to iway than simple chop chop, trap, tainting or ordering.

before i forget, there are iway groups (organized pugs) winning the hoh lately, fyi.

have a nice day.

---------

we were happy earning 1 or 3 fames per tombs zone. we died and learned a lot from our mistakes. now, we still commit mistakes tho, but minimal.

product of our perseverance..

proudly running warriors, rangers and necros.

lishi · Nov 15, 2005, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guizzy

It's even harder for me to get a group as I use a very uncommon character (Fast Casting Water Ele).

I mean: I'm certainly one of the best Water Eles in PvP seeing as I use it exclusively (In TA/CA/PvE). But when it comes to finding a Tombs group, I'm never picked.

Because no one wants rank 0 players, nevermind that I've seen all the maps and been to the HoH.

Because no one wants Water Ele, nevermind that I've single-handedly defeated a minion factory group and won 2 fights in a row with a 4-hench/4-men team.

Ahhh, if there was a way to measure SKILL... Fame ain't it, and I've previously been into a very long argument here about how fame is killing the community.

mhh i see a probrem here

you said , "i play very inusual build."

this is one of the reason not ranked player arent seen well

they dont want change build to fit in team build.

jules · Nov 15, 2005, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

product of our perseverance..

proudly running warriors, rangers and necros.

Our team got wiped by you guys.. I was the lamer asking what 54 squared was in all chat.

Fantus · Nov 15, 2005, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by wongba

the only thing i can say is that u need to try to find a promising guild to join that tombs often.

[...]

if u were a group former, would u choose a rank 0 or a rank 6 for ur team?

Many, many players are in PvE guilds with good friends and don't feel like leaving it, you know? I want to do BOTH PvE and PvP and I am not interested to give one up for the other. I actually know many people who feel that way.

And yes, of course I can understand you guys picking Rank 6 people over guys like me (still working on Rank 1).

(slight rant coming up:

)

But there is ONE thing I can tell you, too: If the current trend keeps that way, and if you leave people like me standing around in Tombs for 1.5 hours before taking them into a group, you will run out of teams to fight pretty quickly.

Geez, people: Tombs ARE dying already. The couple of hundred Rank 9+ players are definitely not enough to keep it alive. Don't believe me? Well, here's the current playerbase in American Tombs (~1pm EST):

9 Districts open
District 9: 0 people on
District 8: 0 people on
District 7: 0 people on
District 6: 0 people on
District 5: 4 people on
District 4: 20 people on
District 3: 15 people on
District 2: 20 people on
District 1: 50 people on

Allright, it isn't primetime, but THIS is what currently is fighting in Tombs in ALL OF AMERICA!

To me it looks like either you start accepting dedicated "new" players into your elite club every now and then or soon all you will have left to fight will be the Unworthy.

I have TS, a mike and a character I feel comfortable playing with. I can run pretty much any Mesmer build you guys want me to and will change my skillbar whenever needed. If you ask me politely enough, I can get a Monk, Ranger or, Ele, too. Yes, I know how to play these classes, too (1,500 hours of GW have to be good for SOMETHING). I have like 25k of faction, so the pace of PvP doesn't really surprise me anymore. I will listen to target calling and I do react to drawing on the radar. If you use TS to tell me not (or when) to attack priest or hero, I will do it. No, I am not an expert on the maps yet - but you guys are. Lead the way, I will follow. Eventually I will learn the maps, too. Is it so hard to believe that a Rank 0 player like me can be a little bit useful, too? Is having to wait another 30 minutes for the last Rank 3+ player to complete your group really SO much better than getting that little Mesmer standing right behind you?

(end rant)

romO · Nov 15, 2005, 06:29 PM // 18:29

no one plays in american districts. check the international districts if you want to see where the people went.

Mystical · Nov 15, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Unfortunatly the Inernatinal Districts are even worse at wanting rank than the American districts. Been there, only had one whisper for a group compared to the American districts quite a few more.

Being only R2 (took me awhile to get here) I know a little secret, and that secret (as I posted before) is this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystical

Alot of people looking for rank 3 don't really care about rank but put that up to encourage people to get in thier group. Give them a whisper and tell them you know what you're doing, I bet they'll let you in.

Fantus · Nov 15, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

no one plays in american districts. check the international districts if you want to see where the people went.

6 Districts open, like 40-50 people in each of them... Still not THAT much if you ask me. At least not when you consider that GW sold 1 - 1.5 million copies by now.

And yes, the fame requirements there are handled even more strictly then in Home Districts...

Rey Lentless · Nov 15, 2005, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Good post wongba.

I see some common similiarities with the people complaining about finding groups in tombs.

First, if you aren't in a guild.. that's a choice you made. If you're in a pve guild and want to remain in it, that again is your choice. If you want to join a pvp guild, there are a lot of different places to look. This forum isn't a bad place for one, lots of pvp guilds advertise in tombs, and better yet.. people who you've played with that you liked that are in a guild. If you don't pursue any of those options, that's a choice you make yourself and it will hurt your pvp experience.

Second, a lot of you say 'i play a great so and so', which to me means you have one character with a certain build and intend to use that. This isn't acceptable to most groups. Your build needs to conform to a team build, and rerolling is needed 95% of the time. If you want to use your certain build with your current skill bar, this is going to limit your options in joining a group. It also shows that you're generally inexperienced and not willing to adapt. It also suggests that you're going to do your own thing and not follow the directions given. I'd much prefer someone who plays multiple or all profs, as these people are more likely to understand the game as a whole and be a better player, compared to the player who understands his one prof with his own bar setup.

Rank does mean something, and means more to me than what guild you play for. There are bad players in every guild, and you could join a guild based on who you know, not your skill level. While I think people who have gvg'd often are much more likely to succeed in tombs as an unranked player, compared to the player who has only done arena.. it's still not tombs experience. There are a lot of different maps and while it shouldn't take too long for people to understand the maps, you do need some level of tombs experience to be proficient with tombing. Tombs experience also shows that you've played or played against some of the current builds you're likely to see, and are experienced, comfortable, and prepared for them. GVG builds do differ quite a bit. There's only so much you can cover over vent at once, and you have to expect the other 7 players to make good decisions based on experience and skill with their current prof/bar. Getting ranked players makes that more likely to happen.

They say they're a very good pvp player, just unranked right now. This isn't a good sign to me. I'd rather take someone who thinks they're a noob. That would at least show that they think they have room to become better and will be looking at future pvp experience as a chance to get better and learn. If you think you're already a good player and know everything, you aren't going to get better and you're probably not going to listen either. Also probably means you're coming from CA, which IMO forms bad habits and prepares you negatively for 8 on 8 a lot of the time.

If you're unranked and want to get into tombs, there are a number of things you can do. Try to change what you're doing.. instead of expecting us to change, or ANET to implement changes that fit what you're doing.

Patrograd · Nov 15, 2005, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

To me it looks like either you start accepting dedicated "new" players into your elite club every now and then or soon all you will have left to fight will be the Unworthy.

I really do sympathise with this, having spent along time pre-IWAY getting to Rank 3, but you know PUGs are rarely ideal under any circumstances, except where they are groups of friends from various guilds who have played with each other before.

Generally we do tombs with an 8 man guild team (we set up the guild for exactly this reason, to avoid the nightmare of playing in PUGs) but on the occasions when someone drops we dont advertise for rank, but we will need the player concerned to have the same skillbar as the person that left that group, and we will need them to have voice comms and a mic. This sint being elitist I dont think.

Generally, if you want to get into the better PUGs get Vent or IRC and hang around in the GW general channels chatting to people. Some of our guildies have got to play with Power of My Rangers and other famous PUGs this way, despite being less than rank 3.

So my advice would be, make sure you have both TS and vent and a working headset (not the 'Mine is broken' sort), look for Guild teams (I have always found them less elitist than PUGs, most of my pre rank 3 fame came from playing with various Guilds) and whisper them even if they are asking for rank 3. Tell them your skillbar, tell them you have comms. If they are worth playing with I'm sure they'll take you in.

Fantus · Nov 15, 2005, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

I see some common similiarities with the people complaining about finding groups in tombs.

[...]

If you're unranked and want to get into tombs, there are a number of things you can do. Try to change what you're doing.. instead of expecting us to change, or ANET to implement changes that fit what you're doing.

Don't know if you're kinda responding to my post or it was more in general, but maybe this will clear it up a bit:

- I nowhere claimed to be equally good or better than a Rank 3+ player. I know that I am not. Also I nowhere said that Rank is meaningless.
- I nowhere claimed to be a good Tombs player. I know that I am not. I said I am somewhat experienced with GW in general after having played it for 1,500 hours and I did claim to understand required basics like target calling (seemed worthy to point that out because even half of PvE players seems not to be able to follow a target call...). Nothing more, nothing less.
- I said I was totally willing to change my skillbar as needed. I would even get another class if people would want me to, but the latter never happened. It's probably because people don't recruit a Mesmer when they need a Monk...
- in the MAJORITY of unranked PUGs I got into so far, people WERE willing to change their builds if someone asked them to. Not ALL <Rank 3 players are brickheads, I guess...
- I know that not being in a PvP guild will not be exactly helpful for me to get into PvP. If I was in a PvP guild I wouldn't need to basically beg for getting into a team. Yes, it's my choice. One that has something to do with friendship and loyality, among other things.

If I sum your post up correctly, you're basically saying that there is no place for the likes of me in your elitist club, right? Or in what way I am supposed to "change" since obviously being willing to learn and listen seems not to be enough?

Del12 · Nov 15, 2005, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Download TS server, install on your computer, and start making your own groups using that. That's what I did. I still think the lack of group-post-board still sucks. I wouldn't play Tombs at all if I sat there spamming LFG for an hour, which is what everyone goes through at first.

As for rank, I usually advertise looking for rank3+, but if someone msgs me and is like rank 0 or something, I just ask their skills, that is a definite newb giveaway. If they have a decent skillset I'll take them regardless of rank - and things usually go well.

Fantus · Nov 15, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Download TS server, install on your computer, and start making your own groups using that. That's what I did. I still think the lack of group-post-board still sucks. I wouldn't play Tombs at all if I sat there spamming LFG for an hour, which is what everyone goes through at first.

As for rank, I usually advertise looking for rank3+, but if someone msgs me and is like rank 0 or something, I just ask their skills, that is a definite newb giveaway. If they have a decent skillset I'll take them regardless of rank - and things usually go well.

I actually RUN a TS server for my guild, this wouldn't be the problem. But if you are going to set up a group yourself, people are (rightfully) expecting YOU to set up the build, skills and so on. I am kinda reluctant to do that since I am really not that experienced in Tombs. I'd be much more comfortable with filling a role someone would assign to me and learn things that way. But maybe you are right - at least having to spam LFG for 1 hour+ seems not something I want to do very often (well, as a Mesmer having played lots of PvE you are used to it, but still...

)