Curse

DieInBasra · Apr 14, 2006, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Melandrus

Ranger/Mesmer
Level: 20

Expertise: 14 (11+3)
Wilderness Survival: 12 (10+2)
Marksmanship: 11 (10+1)

Melandru's Arrows [Elite] (Wilderness Survival)
Dual Shot (Ranger other)
Savage Shot (Marksmanship)
Distracting Shot (Expertise)
Whirling Defense (Expertise)
Pin Down (Marksmanship)
Favorable Winds (Marksmanship)
Resurrection Signet ()

RottingHP

Necromancer/Monk
Level: 20

Soul Reaping: 6 (5+1)
Blood Magic: 16 (12+4)
Death Magic: 11 (9+1)
Healing Prayers: 8

Offering of Blood [Elite] (Blood Magic)
Order of Pain (Blood Magic)
Rotting Flesh (Death Magic)
Blood Ritual (Blood Magic)
Putrid Explosion (Death Magic)
Heal Party (Healing Prayers)
Convert Hexes (Protection Prayers)
Resurrection Signet ()

OrbHP

Elementalist/Monk
Level: 20

Energy Storage: 13 (10+3)
Air Magic: 13 (11+2)
Healing Prayers: 10

Lightning Orb (Air Magic)
Blinding Flash (Air Magic)
Windborne Speed (Air Magic)
Enervating Charge (Air Magic)
Heal Party (Healing Prayers)
Ether Prodigy [Elite] (Energy Storage)
Draw Conditions (Protection Prayers)
Resurrection Signet ()

BoonProt

Monk/Mesmer
Level: 20

Divine Favor: 16 (12+4)
Protection Prayers: 10 (9+1)
Inspiration Magic: 9

Mend Condition (Protection Prayers)
Guardian (Protection Prayers)
Protective Spirit (Protection Prayers)
Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
Holy Veil (Monk other)
Divine Boon (Divine Favor)
Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)
Energy Drain [Elite] (Inspiration Magic)

CripApply

Ranger/Mesmer
Level: 20

Expertise: 14 (11+3)
Wilderness Survival: 7 (6+1)
Marksmanship: 12 (10+2)
Inspiration Magic: 7

Dual Shot (Ranger other)
Savage Shot (Marksmanship)
Distracting Shot (Expertise)
Apply Poison (Wilderness Survival)
Crippling Shot [Elite] (Marksmanship)
Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)
Whirling Defense (Expertise)
Resurrection Signet ()

EvisExe

Warrior/Elementalist
Level: 20

Strength: 11 (10+1)
Axe Mastery: 16 (12+4)
Air Magic: 8

Eviscerate [Elite] (Axe Mastery)
Executioner's Strike (Axe Mastery)
Disrupting Chop (Axe Mastery)
Bull's Strike (Strength)
Rush (Strength)
Shock (Air Magic)
Frenzy (Warrior other)
Resurrection Signet ()

FreezeHP

Elementalist/Monk
Level: 20

Energy Storage: 9 (8+1)
Water Magic: 16 (12+4)
Healing Prayers: 10

Ether Prodigy [Elite] (Energy Storage)
Deep Freeze (Water Magic)
Shard Storm (Water Magic)
Ice Spikes (Water Magic)
Heal Party (Healing Prayers)
Draw Conditions (Protection Prayers)
Armor of Mist (Water Magic)
Resurrection Signet ()

InfuseWoH

Monk/Mesmer
Level: 20

Divine Favor: 11 (10+1)
Healing Prayers: 16 (12+4)
Inspiration Magic: 8

Word of Healing [Elite] (Healing Prayers)
Healing Touch (Healing Prayers)
Infuse Health (Healing Prayers)
Dwayna's Kiss (Healing Prayers)
Holy Veil (Monk other)
Mend Condition (Protection Prayers)
Inspired Hex (Inspiration Magic)
Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)

So yeah. The basis is that the two rangers and the necro spread Poison and Bleeding and Disease throughout the opposing team while the Axe trains adren on someone. Three copys of HP and only one warrior makes disease very usable. Once the warrior has full adren a spike is called on someone esle (monk more often then not). The necro throws up OoP and the rangers Dual--> Savage while the Warrior Shock--> Evis--> Exe, and the Eles (depending on if they're there or not) contribute as well.

This build has alot of movement control and the ability to dual-run very well. Both of the eles can do it just fine. I'd use the Air to run when you're against a spike or want to play offensively. Use the water to run when you're vs a rspike, are having trouble with enemy warriors, or need the Prod powered HP there all the time.

The reason for Whirling on both rangers is so that they can go deep for the Dshot on an enemy's HP and come out alive. I don't think warrior needs healsig due to the three HP's going on in the background, and I value the disrution of Dchop over endure pain.

The necro stays pretty far back. He runs up to the monks to give them BR if needed, but he should try to stay out of the fight. The monks and the ele are fairly basic, maybe the Trident instead of Prod on the ele is a bit odd, but I really like it as a snare.

A split would look like:
Crip, Mel's, Axe, Boon attacking, and Nec,Water,Air,Infuse defending.

A few questions:
Is WoS on the necro out of place/useless?
Is Trident on the Water a bad idea?
Is ihex better then drain on the CripShot?
Am I really putting out any pressure with the condition rangers?

Anything blatently wrong with it?

EDIT-Got rid of WoS and added putrid , changed Draw to Convert on the necro, got rid of Trident, added Draw on the water.

SaintGreg · Apr 15, 2006, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Is WoS on the necro out of place/useless?

It doesn't really seem that good, but not uber-crap-terrible. It weakens his attributes - Rotting Flesh is more effective at higher death, but it is still powerful at moderate death as well. Getting more out of heal party is never a bad thing. Well of Suffering isn't THAT bad, they certainly can't afford to stay in it long, which gives them less options, and you more options. Well of the profane seems like a much heftier version though. Instead not being able to stay in long, they can't go in at all. And WoP doesn't even seem that good.

Is Trident on the Water a bad idea?

Running with water attunement alone isn't going to keep him going long. I would swap them out for ether prodigy and another utility slot, perhaps draw conditions or another hex removal. As a snare, you would want a slowdown hex on him anyways if you were thinking about casting water trident, in which case the slowdown hex may be enough. If it isn't, your warrior can simply shock or bull's strike (or just rage him to death).

You also don't need 16 water to hit the relevant breakpoints, 14 for both shard storm and ice spikes. Those points are better spent into energy storage and healing prayers.

Am I really putting out any pressure with the condition rangers?

Certainly not nearly as much as any sort of mesmer, but the ablity to spike hard is powerful. Would the melandru's arrow ranger be better as a sword warrior? Most likely.

twicky_kid · Apr 15, 2006, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Add a sword war with 2 rangers

gash
galrath
final
bull strike
virulence
frenzy
rush
plague touch

Remove the from tainted and add draw conditions.

rii · Apr 18, 2006, 09:20 AM // 09:20

You'll get a lot of pressure out of the rangers if you give them enough tools to disrupt their counters. Heal party is the obvious one, distract either that, or preferably ether prodigy to stop them coming with frequency.

Martyr and restore are also problems which need to be equally dealt with, which means your rangers need to be on their toes if the other team is specced heavily against conditions.

In a similar build im putting together, concussion shot made an interesting addition. It gets fast covered by poison/bleeding, but mainly serves as another interrupt. It at least causes problems for people who just like to draw stuff around the team until someone removes it, or martyr.

WoS isnt that good - life siphon or something to spam in between doing other things can be thrown in - its alright degen and some self heal, and pressure is pressure. It also isnt countered by people walking 10 feet left.

Trident would be good if there was BIP in the team somewhere. Mega spam along with the other things. As it is, its reasonable, but i might either go ether prodigy and throw in blurred vision or go me/e and go duel attunements fastcast/watersnare. 3 copies of HP is a little overkill

Drain enchant and ihex give practically the same amount of energy over time (at 10 inspir they give exactly the same). Its up to you... it depends what utility your team needs. Personally i would stick with drain enchant, more enchantments removed is just more pressure. I also had success for a while going /w and using flurry with cripshot. With a zealous bow i can't remember whether it gives a net return of energy, but your slow bow gets a lot faster, and more poison is more good.

edit: also, i would leave the axe warrior as is with the two rangers. It gives a more physical damage presence, so if you do loose the condition damage in a big way there is a solid backbone of decent dps/m

Patrograd · Apr 18, 2006, 10:34 AM // 10:34

from my experience of playing this kind of build I would say that you need to bear in mind that your single warrior will attract ALOT of hate, and will be effectively shut down for the entire match. Most pressure teams build for at least partially disabling two warriors, so if you only have one then he is going to attract all of that.

This isnt necessarily a bad thing for your build, but you need to discount any damage your warrior might do as being a bonus rather than include it as part of your calculations or strategy. If it was me running a single warrior, I'd make him a W/Mo with COP and try and keep him enchanted with long lasting enchants like tainted or prot spirit so he can at least do what he can to keep himself clean.

Speaking of tainted, running rotting flesh without either an elite condition removal or tainted on your team is a very dangerous game to play IMHO. If you dont want tainted, then you really have to fit in either restore conditions or martyr somewhere or else that disease is going to get you as much as it gets them, and disease is a serious pain.

SaintGreg · Apr 18, 2006, 01:07 PM // 13:07

He has three copies of heal party, even if disease gets on all of your own team, so what?

Patrograd · Apr 18, 2006, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

He has three copies of heal party, even if disease gets on all of your own team, so what?

I think it is generally a good idea to avoid making the enemy team's job any easier.

Infecting all of your own team with disease with no means of efficient removal makes their job alot easier IMHO and adds considerably to the pressure already being exerted on you by them. I think you should avoid aiding the enemy wherever possible, and whilst disease is a powerful tool it is very much a double edged sword unless it is handled correctly.

SaintGreg · Apr 18, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

You dont purposely put it on yourself. If it gets on your team, and even if spreads to most of them, you have enough heal party to easily survive more or less unharmed until it expires. Even still it will be on the other team much longer than its on you, and will hurt them more, especially since the rangers may be able to distract a heal party. Especially in this build, you certainly wouldn't remove the disease just because you don't have tainted.

Patrograd · Apr 18, 2006, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

If it gets on your team, .

I dont believe that there is an if about it, it will spread to your team.

What i have been trying to say in my usual blundering ineloquent way is that if the nett result of the disease is neutral, then you are better off without it because you have an energy comittment in spreading it to begin with. In other words, If it costs you as much energy to control the disease in your team as it costs the enemy then it is pointless.

I think disease creates -6 degen, or -12HP per second (please adjust the following figures if that is ioncorrect). Heal party at 10 healing heals for 58 points at a cost of 15 energy. Therefore, you will need to cast one heal party every five seconds just to keep control of your own disease. That is a cost to your team of 3 energy per second, or 180 energy per minute, just to control your own disease. if the other team can handle the disease in a more efficient way through the use of for example martyr or restore conditions then you are in a hole that gets deeper the more you apply the disease.

Even if the other team has to use heal party to heal over it, you are still no better off than you were without the disease. The effect is neutral, both teams are expending the same amount of effort and energy to cope with the problem caused by the disease. As everyone brings at least one heal party, this is the best scenario you can hope for.

As for this specific build, of the three heal parties in this build, only one is backed by prodigy, the other two are far from spammable, and one of those is only 8 healing. I dont think you could maintain the kind of HP spam needed for any significant period.

You're going to distract their heal party? Ok, thats easy to say, and easy to do in a build where your distracting shot guy is babysitting the heal party guy, but in this build both of the distracting shot guys are also the primary source of degen and as such will be required to both tab around applying conditions AND distract the heal party. It can be done for sure, but it takes a really top class experienced player to pull off consistently.

On the other hand.......

Tainted Flesh at 13 death provides protection from disease for 41 seconds, at a cost of 5 energy. If applied to the entire team every 40 seconds, that is a total energy cost of 1 energy per second, or 60 energy per minute, to control the disease. Now you are ahead against any team that doesnt bring martyr or tainted, as the disease is costing you 2 energy per second less to control than them. In this scenario, the more you apply the disease, the deeper the hole you are digging for them, as the effect of the disease is to give you an energy advantage which will really bite over time

of course, these numbers are in a vacuum where the only thing either team has to contend with is disease. in reality you will have to contend with blind and weakness on your own rangers and warrior, and usually poison from the other team. In such an environment, your disease is going to give you real issues as it may well cover these other conditions preventing quick removal from any source other than an elite condition removal. This is why most teams that bring rotting bring martyr if they dont bring tainted, as martyr can be cast every 10 seconds for 5 energy, mopping up not only the disease but all the other stuff that needs removing too, a hugely efficient tool in this kind of build.

Energy efficiency and the management of your teams overall energy requirements is a very important aspect of the game and should always be considered in build design. Putting yourself at an energy loss seems a bad place to start a build design to me. Again, this is clearly only my opinion, but I would put either tainted or martyr on that necro every time.

Greedy Gus · Apr 18, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Disease is 4 pips, 8HP/S. I really disagree with your idea that rotting flesh will generally have a neutral net result, or if you weren't saying that, I find fault with mentioning it at all. It's on your bar, you decide exactly when to launch it, hopefully at the most backbreaking time where you can punish a group of enemies or an opposing team that is on the vergy of breaking. You know exactly when it's being dropped, so your heal party can be standing by in case of it spreading to your team, while your interrupters can be ready to snipe their heal party.

And even in a point where the disease is technically energy inefficient, it's all about timing. You don't launch it to gain an advantage, you do it to press an advantage to rout the enemy group. It's a momentum skill.

Personally, I really don't like tainted flesh. The fact that you keep it up affords the enemy a steady reapplication of disease, but they know that, so there is no surprise element, they can deal with it. And it takes up your elite.

DieInBasra · Apr 19, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

This isnt necessarily a bad thing for your build, but you need to discount any damage your warrior might do as being a bonus rather than include it as part of your calculations or strategy. If it was me running a single warrior, I'd make him a W/Mo with COP and try and keep him enchanted with long lasting enchants like tainted or prot spirit so he can at least do what he can to keep himself clean.

Mmm, with at least one Eprod powered draw in the midlines, two on occasion, I don't think the conditions on my warrior will be a problem. I agree with hexes, though, so I added Convert on the necro. I think that draw will be a little impractical on him anyway, as he should be a backline character, only poping forward to drop disease.

Quote:

In such an environment, your disease is going to give you real issues as it may well cover these other conditions preventing quick removal from any source other than an elite condition removal.

Or Draw conditions.

I really can't think of what to replace WoS/Putrid with. Should I spec into prot for an ageis? I don't think LT would work well, seeing as it'll be ripped off in a second due to how few hexes I have.

SaintGreg · Apr 19, 2006, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

As for this specific build, of the three heal parties in this build, only one is backed by prodigy, the other two are far from spammable, and one of those is only 8 healing. I dont think you could maintain the kind of HP spam needed for any significant period.

The build changed, now it has two 10-healing ether prodigy HP's and one OoB 8-healing HP. But even before it had 1 ether prod powered, and one OoB powered (2nd best or close to it behind ether prodigy). On the OoB guy, he doesn't really have any spammables besides disease itself and order of pain anyways. You could easily sacrifice OoP for the duration of your teams disease to mop it up if you absolutely had to, and you could still OoP for spikes anyways.

The problem with tainted is that you waste an elite and a skill slot to do the same thing that you could do with an elite-powered heal party.

Patrograd · Apr 19, 2006, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Clearly it is a matter of personal opinion and intended usage, I'm not going to fall out with anyone over it. I have played in similar concept builds in maybe 50 or more GvG battles as its something we ran alot when the last balance patch first came out, and I guess that what i am saying is that my experience would be that unless you either use the disease sparingly (it was mentioned to use it as a momemtum thing for example to apply extra pressure to an already weakened team) or you build in some form of extremely efficient removal if you intend to use it as a major part of your degen from the off, you might find yourself digging a very deep hole that you cant get out of.

Dont get me wrong, I love disease, it is a great pressure tool and I would always try and find ways of fitting it into a pressure build, but you absolutely have to be aware that it works both ways, and I have seen teams collapse from winning positions under the weight of their own disease when they have been unable to remove it efficiently for whatever reason. Use it with great care.