Curse

Ensign · Apr 16, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

I will simply re-iterate that if the other team provides you with enough time to aggressively remove hexes and/or conditions, then they are terrible and you have nothing to worry about.

Peace,
-CxE

Myodato · Apr 16, 2006, 11:52 PM // 23:52

On the topic of swapping foci to hide energy, does anyone else use a peppermint shield, or is that just me ?

wheel · Apr 17, 2006, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myodato

On the topic of swapping foci to hide energy, does anyone else use a peppermint shield, or is that just me ?

I would rather prefer to have a +8 AL, +30 HP shield, or a +25 HP, +5 AL, -2e focus than a peppermint shield.

Rustjive · Apr 17, 2006, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

I would rather prefer to have a +8 AL, +30 HP shield, or a +25 HP, +5 AL, -2e focus than a peppermint shield.

The added benefit of such shield is that you can get -2 dmg received while enchanted mods on them as well. The +5 HP/-2 damage received/+3 AL is much more useful, IMO, than the -2e provided by the CoA scroll. Use a +45 while enchanted shield if you're more daring.

a cadet · Apr 17, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Returning to the OP’s original question, (what’s the best way to deal with e-denial and mindwrack?)

If a mesmer is using Mind Wrack on you that’s doing 90-100 damage, you can expect them to have a 15-16 in domination, and most likely they will have Energy Burn, possibly Energy Surge, etc. With that in mind, watch them as they e-denial you: if they un-cleverly spam all their denial at once, or if they’re more clever, and wait a bit in between. In any case, there is a definite pattern to how they use their skills. (I’m not asking you to on-the-fly discover exactly what they do; more a simple “ok, they used ___ x seconds ago, I can expect them to use it again in approx. 15 seconds”). Then, swap your focus item so that you have –15 energy, before you expect them to burn off your energy. Wait for them to use their e-denial, then switch back, use your skills, etc. The point where Mind Wrack comes in is that if you manage to control the amount of energy you spend in such a way that you only reach 0 at a time you choose, (i.e. when you focus swap, and thus trigger Mind Wrack), if needed you can ask for hex removal exactly then.

To be honest, what I mentioned above will most likely never be followed to the letter; in most cases when you see yourself taking that 90 damage every 2 seconds its because you’re spamming – either over healing, or unsuccessfully attempting to funnel water off a sinking ship.

What energy denial mesmers really do is force you to pace yourself, as a monk. If things go bad, the ‘pace’ at which you are healing may be insufficient to keep your party alive (that’s actually ok – a lot of people don’t get it and waste themselves saving random Leroys, and then let the party die); most likely that’s not your fault, but your teams fault.

In a 4-4, it is incredibly hard as the single monk on the team. It’s way harder than working a 3, or even 2 monk backline in 8-8. And really, in 4-4 a lot of it comes down to what everyone else on your team is doing. It’s not like in 8-8 where you essentially create a 5 man offense, slap on 3 monks and off you go.

Best of luck monking around.

dansamy · Apr 17, 2006, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

The mend ailment nerf also stops monks from sitting in fire to get huge heals over and over in the lava level, which was a shady tactic to begin with.

Oh, you caught me red-handed. That was a favorite tactic of mine. Silly wamos with mending thought they could kill me.

Divineshadows · Apr 17, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Good teams distribute removal duties to avoid overloading any one character. It's downright retarded to expect your most popular target to not only keep himself and your team alive, but to handle all the cleaning duties as well. What exactly are the other 3 guys on the team doing that's so important?

I'd sooner run 0 targeted hex removals on a booner in 4v4 than 2.

Peace,
-CxE

Ensign is absolutely right about this point. No matter how good of a boon protter you are, you are not superman and good teams will punish you for loading all of the defense (healing, condition removal, and hex removal) onto a single player. Doing so creates a single point of failure. This was a difficult lesson for me to learn as a monk that had been used to playing in teams structured in this way. A more robust build for team arenas involves some of the following skills on other players on the team -- holy veil, inspired hex, a fast-cast remove hex, draw conditions, mend ailment, healing breeze, and plauge touch. 2 to 4 of these skills spread across the other players go a long way toward team success. Plauge touch on a warrior is typically not enough as secondary condition removal, because opposing teams' monks and mesmers can just e-deny the plauge touching warrior.

Scrubs complain when you, as a monk, ask them to put skills like this onto their bars cause ZOMG they do so much damage as an ele or mesmer or necro and how dare you take away some of their damage potential. Good players come into your group with one or two support skills already on their bar. Rangers are difficult to work with, because these support skills are tough to fit onto their bars and many are too energy intensive for them. In addition, they are another player you have to keep free from blind, faintheart, spiteful spirit, etc. in addition to your warrior. However, a skilled ranger offsets the opponent's hexing output somewhat with use of interrupts.

In GvG, running secondary condition removal on a midline character becomes even more crucial to keep the warriors clean without your monks having to move up and easily expose themselves to the opponent's nasty dom memsers.

On the topic of mind wrack and focus swapping, the damage from wrack is neglible if you build your team right as Ensign suggests and you have players that know how to kite. Against wrack memsers I try to stay on my negative energy set (23 total energy) to be at 0 energy as often as possible. Sometimes the wrack can be a benefit to you when you swap up and cast inspired hex to take it off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

I would rather prefer to have a +8 AL, +30 HP shield, or a +25 HP, +5 AL, -2e focus than a peppermint shield.

This has to be a gold shield and not Victo's Bulwark to get +8 armor from not meeting the requirement, correct? Sounds expensive. The cities of ascalon scroll is nice, because you get the armor bonus and health bonus unconditionally unlike a shield that has armor depending upon the opponent's relative position to you.

mariano · Apr 17, 2006, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

So I'm getting the hang of focus-swapping on my boon prot, and it helps a lot against most energy denial. [...] But I'm still having problems against e-denial mesmers who use Mind Wrack.
[...]
I suspect there is some sort of strategy I could be using to manage these situations better, but I can't figure out what it is. Please help!

I am not an expert, but I use to play a mesmer in RA.

I agree with those who suggest to attack the mesmer, but, in the case that there is a monk in the other team, as your team is bussy attacking the mesmer their monk is free to do whatever... and the mesmer may attack you again at the first breath.

Nevertheless, I do not use Mind Wrack because I think that I need too many slots to make it effective. My more common tactical skill bar is designed i) to defend from warriors, for this I need 3-4 skill slots, and ii) to shut down monks, for this I use the remaining 4-3 slots, the 8th is for the res-signet.
I do not expect to be able to easely trigger Mind Wrack with just Energy Surge and Energy Burn - both have 20 seconds of recharge time- I prefer to use the enrgy in Diversion instead. When I have tried Mind Wrack I had Energy Surge , Energy Burn , Signet of Weariness and Energy Tap with me.

With this I mean, that a mesmer who uses Mind Wrack in a RA or TA, may be either not enough strong to cause you real problems with e-denial and Mind Wrack, or not enough strong to avoid or to defend himself from damage from a warrior. If the mesmer can harm too much you with e-denial plus Mind Wrack , then just attack that mesmer, and if the mesmer can not do that, then attack their monk.

Byron · Apr 17, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

First, Contemplation is obvious, so I won't go into that one.

I think you're overrating CoP here. Used with MoR it can be a life saver, but as for reliable hex removal, it shouldn't even be considered IMO. If you get a hex stack 5 seconds after casting MoR (as you often will), then that CoP will bring a fresh 20 energy to deny or surge along with removing the hexes. Then, for 25 seconds, you have the option of swapping into mind wrack or sitting around waiting for enough energy to recast boon. If you're in 4v4 and playing versus a mesmer, then that mesmer is going to camp you all round without mercy. MoR and boon against a dedicated mesmer is, I believe, an energy disaster waiting to happen.
Which leads to the fundamental rule: Mesmer>Monk.
That said, CoP versus Migraine is FTW everytime, but Migraine is more often dismissed as "amateur."

Quote:

mend ailment's recharge is going to keep your warrior blind for practically the whole match.

That's why I would highly suggest W/Mo with mend himself, or W/N for 4v4 play.

Quote:

It's rare in arenas that you'll find yourself with a condition you can't live with, and if that ever does happen you can CoP it off.

To use CoP for condition removal is probably a bad idea, considering you'll have MoR and boon beneath that condition. If you get hit with an Eviscerate->Axe rake, then I would forgive you. You've got mend, why not use it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

if the other team provides you with enough time to aggressively remove hexes and/or conditions, then they are terrible and you have nothing to worry about.

Absolutely so... If they're just throwing out degens and snares at a whim, then they obviously lack coordination. Any team worth their salt, IMO, is going to use conditions/hexes to distract you, but centralize their efforts and stack for the kill.

sno · Apr 17, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I think you're overrating CoP here. Used with MoR it can be a life saver, but as for reliable hex removal, it shouldn't even be considered IMO. If you get a hex stack 5 seconds after casting MoR (as you often will), then that CoP will bring a fresh 20 energy to deny or surge along with removing the hexes. Then, for 25 seconds, you have the option of swapping into mind wrack or sitting around waiting for enough energy to recast boon. If you're in 4v4 and playing versus a mesmer, then that mesmer is going to camp you all round without mercy. MoR and boon against a dedicated mesmer is, I believe, an energy disaster waiting to happen.
Which leads to the fundamental rule: Mesmer>Monk.
That said, CoP versus Migraine is FTW everytime, but Migraine is more often dismissed as "amateur."

Ok, I suppose it wasn't as obvious as I thought, so I will go into it... The reason CoP is so great is because it's almost instantaneous hex removal. If you get backfire (or migraine, or shame) on you, simply CoP it off and re-boon and you're good to go. Also it helps greatly when you get a fast-recharge with MoP, which happens a lot since I use 2x 20% recharge weapons. That's 36% of the time that I'll have MoP ready to recast if it gets stripped or I have to CoP it off. I'm not saying it should be used all the time, as if you can certainly use inspired or veil first, but in an emergency CoP is priceless.

As for MoR being bad against a dedicated mesmer, I actually find that with practice it can help a lot. If you know you're going to be edenied (which is generally fairly obvious with TA mesmers) switch to your negative energy set (30 total energy) and cast MoR (before you switch if you're already low.) that will give you 23 energy plus another 24 when you switch back to your main energy set (12 with offhand and 5 with weapon, and removing the -5 weapon and -2 offhand.) that 47 energy is "hidden" from the mesmer, and he can't take it unless he first strips the MoR, which can be a: covered, and b: recast.

Quote:

That's why I would highly suggest W/Mo with mend himself, or W/N for 4v4 play.

Personal preference of course, but I prefer to have my offense focus on offense, as long as I can handle the defense. With mend condition I don't have a problem ripping conditions as they're applied, even with a dedicated blinder.

Quote:

To use CoP for condition removal is probably a bad idea, considering you'll have MoR and boon beneath that condition. If you get hit with an Eviscerate->Axe rake, then I would forgive you. You've got mend, why not use it?

Again, only in emergencies would I do something like that. And again back to the fact that mend ailment is a 5 second recharge, way too long for effective team condition removal.

Divineshadows · Apr 17, 2006, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

Ok, I suppose it wasn't as obvious as I thought, so I will go into it... The reason CoP is so great is because it's almost instantaneous hex removal. If you get backfire (or migraine, or shame) on you, simply CoP it off and re-boon and you're good to go. Also it helps greatly when you get a fast-recharge with MoP, which happens a lot since I use 2x 20% recharge weapons. That's 36% of the time that I'll have MoP ready to recast if it gets stripped or I have to CoP it off. I'm not saying it should be used all the time, as if you can certainly use inspired or veil first, but in an emergency CoP is priceless.

So your skillbar is:

Divine Boon
Contemplation of Purity
Holy Veil
Inspired Hex
Mantra of Recall
Mend Condition
Reversal of Fortune
Guardian

Divine Favor - 16
Protection - 9
Inspiration - 10

This should work reasonably well in TA, but it is much too introverted for my taste as a monk. Also, not really digging the tripple hex removal of CoP, holy veil, and inspired hex -- you have a team of people with you after all. For TA, I prefer to be able to have some impact on how the battle turns out beyond just protecting/healing/removing conditions and hexes:

Divine Boon
Contemplation of Purity
Inspired Hex
Energy Drain
Drain Enchantment
Mend Condition
Reversal of Fortune
Guardian

Divine Favor - 16
Protection - 10
Inspiration - 9

You get to decide who you drain energy from and which enchantment you would like to drain which gives the monk player a bit of offensive flair.

CoP is nice for emergencies and is on 95+% of my TA monk builds. For HA and GvG, it is less of a necessity.

sno · Apr 17, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Also, not really digging the tripple hex removal of CoP, holy veil, and inspired hex -- you have a team of people with you after all. For TA, I prefer to be able to have some impact on how the battle turns out beyond just protecting/healing/removing conditions and hexes:

Personal preference here then, although I use my veil/inspired very often when I'm in TA, and it still isn't enough sometimes. I pull off everything, from lightning surges to SS, backfire, conjure phant, I try to keep everyone clean. If I can keep my team clean then they're more than capable of taking care of the other team on their own. If a mesmer gets backfire buried on him then he's totally shutdown for 10 seconds. Not being able to take care of him is not worth being able to use drain enchant once in awhile, as he's quite capable of doing that on his own.

I'm clearly quite the opposite thinking when it comes to monking, as I think my job is purely defensive, and as long as I can keep my team safe and hex/condition free, they should be able to handle all the offense. This seems to work well for me

.

wheel · Apr 17, 2006, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

This has to be a gold shield and not Victo's Bulwark to get +8 armor from not meeting the requirement, correct? Sounds expensive. The cities of ascalon scroll is nice, because you get the armor bonus and health bonus unconditionally unlike a shield that has armor depending upon the opponent's relative position to you.

You can always use a PvP character with a +30 HP shield; it'll produce mostly the same effect.

coldplay · Apr 17, 2006, 10:48 PM // 22:48

peppermint shield dont do you anything when you running or no getting hits at front, ascalon scroll is sure better, +5armor is globe

Tigris Of Gaul · Apr 18, 2006, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

You can always use a PvP character with a +30 HP shield; it'll produce mostly the same effect.

Green items, collectors, and PvP shields all will give 3 AL, not 8.

Rustjive · Apr 18, 2006, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Slightly off-topic (but I didn't derail the thread!), but what are the effects of shields on non-projectile spells? Deathly Swarm, for example, or Lightning Strike? What about spells with a specific origin point, such as flame burst or After Shock (emanating from the caster). I assume that projectile spells would be subject to the usual shield direction criteria.

Tigris Of Gaul · Apr 18, 2006, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustjive

Slightly off-topic (but I didn't derail the thread!), but what are the effects of shields on non-projectile spells? Deathly Swarm, for example, or Lightning Strike? What about spells with a specific origin point, such as flame burst or After Shock (emanating from the caster). I assume that projectile spells would be subject to the usual shield direction criteria.

Your shield's AL is a global bonus to your armor.

nebuchanezzar · Apr 18, 2006, 05:30 AM // 05:30

I was under the impression that shield AL bonus is global. That being said the peppermint/gingerbread are 10AL for no att. Only 2 E more than the scrolls, +5AL but not the bonus 25hp. I have the scroll too but more often use the shield. Is there proof that shield AL is not global and the scrolls is because my damage is reduced even when Im running away not just when im backpedalling.

Rustjive · Apr 18, 2006, 06:15 AM // 06:15

There's no dispute from here that shield AL is global, nor that shield AL is active only in the forward arc. What I'm asking is how spell direction operates. I assume that spell projectiles operate under the same mechanics as bow and melee attacks, and the spells in question are non-directional spells (lightning strike, earthquake) or directed PBAoE spells (flame burst, which emanates from the caster...or does it?)

I did do some limited testing, and non-directed spells count shields globally. Projectile spells, to my surprise, also don't carry a 'direction'. I didn't test, but I see no reason why PBAoE spells would deviate from this. So I guess Tigris answered it.

Bast · Apr 18, 2006, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

I should've mentioned that I'm playing in 4v4, so switching to Restore Condition just to fight energy denial would, I think, be a really bad idea.

edit: Also, if it helps, my current build looks like this:
Energy Drain (E)
Drain Enchantment
Mend Ailment
Holy Veil
Reversal of Fortune
Guardian
Divine Boon
Contemplation of Purity

Try swapping Holy Veil for Inspired Hex and Drain Enchantment for Signet of Devotion. When you swap down to your -energy set, use Signet of Devotion as your main heal. If you need a faster or bigger heal, swap up and fire off one of your spells, then swap back down. You can also use Signet of Devotion to increase your efficiency (like Word of Healing does for healing builds), which is energy management of sorts. It's also a pretty decent way to heal up the Mind Wrack damage. Inspired Hex doesn't remove as many hexes as Holy Veil, but it's also energy management.