Curse

icemonkey · Apr 11, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensign

They pressure the flagger early on as he's coming back to recap, beating the energy out of our monks and breaking our backline.

you make it sound like thats when you lost and not when you refused to change your build when they gg'd it with CoF and an int ranger

Vindexus · Apr 11, 2006, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

you make it sound like thats when you lost and not when you refused to change your build when they gg'd it with CoF and an int ranger

We aren't talking about build issues here, we're talking about play styles.

Patrograd · Apr 11, 2006, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

understand that you're getting away with something, you're not smashing them with smart play.

Thanks, thats what I felt was the case, as this is what happens when we play against the top few teams as we cant against such teams seem to spike down the runner as target #1 and return the flag before capping ourselves and bringing the spare as we would usually aim to.

I am a bit stuck though on how to double run the flag in a spike build, as typically that will only leave six at the stand for perhaps extended periods, two of whom will probably be monks, making the spikes much, much harder to pull off during those first few minutes when you build up the flag advantage. I guess we could make the monks have some spike utility.

[Edit] Just seeking clarification on this - is it better to relay the flags (one guy take it halfway before returning for the next spawn, other take it the rest) or to have two characters doing the full run, alternating on each spawn? Or does it depend on build or situation?

JR · Apr 11, 2006, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

[Edit] Just seeking clarification on this - is it better to relay the flags (one guy take it halfway before returning for the next spawn, other take it the rest) or to have two characters doing the full run, alternating on each spawn? Or does it depend on build or situation?

I would say generally it is better to relay. This allows the character actually bringing it the last part to the stand to be there more regularly with minimum down time, and therefore participate in spikes if you time them inbetween flag runs.

Poison Ivy · Apr 11, 2006, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Whatever you do, don't forget the Repair Kit (If there is one)

ump · Apr 18, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

A lot of good information so far. Can we briefly talk about popular builds and their roles as far as what they contribute to flag running, party support, and one-on-ones with other flag runners without making this a what is the best runner build and variations?

Crippling Shot runner
Skills:
Crippling Shot(to cripple opposing flag runners)
Apply Poision (to cover up crippling and to provide health degeneration)
Various run/self preservation skills

E/Mo runner
Skills:
Lightning Orb(to spike)
Enervating Charge(weakness + damage)
Blinding Flash(blind)
Gale(knockdown)
Heal Party(party support)
Windborne Speed(run)

Water runner
Skills:
?

Ice spells slow and do damage to other runner.

Are there other standard runners? Can you help fill in some information that I am missing?

Medion · Apr 18, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

I use Healing Breeze on the air-runner as well.

And in my opinion, the air-runner is better then the crip-shotrunner when your team can make sure it's around the flagstand all the time, but when the team can't do that the cripshot is better.
In other words; air-runner is better team-assistance with Heal Party and blinding and such but the cripshot has more survivability one on one or sometimes even against a few more people.

It should be noted though that I don't play on a very high level (many would call it low) and that the better players (such as JR and Ensign) are more reliable than I am.

Shen Xi · Apr 18, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

air runner is better one on one vs a ranger cripshot though. Blinding flash on the ranger -> the end

Medion · Apr 18, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

It is when you want to kill, but I never wanted to kill really when I came against air-runner. I always just survived on Troll Unguent and my armour.

JR · Apr 18, 2006, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shen Xi

air runner is better one on one vs a ranger cripshot though. Blinding flash on the ranger -> the end

Throw out a Distracting Shot as soon as the Ele gets into casting range, chances are it is trying to do the exact same thing with Blinding Flash. Learn to time it well enough, and in most cases you probably give them serious problems. If you don't hit with Distracting move in close and try to hit it with Savage untill Distracting recharges. Don't bother trying to do anything else untill you get it Distracted. If you do get blinded, just run, no point hanging around.

Wolydarg · Apr 21, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Water Ele builds I've seen are:
Water Trident {e} - Constant KD on flaggers
Blurred Vision - Self-explanatory
Armor of Mist - Run
Ice Prison - Snare
Shard Storm or Ice Spikes (forgot name)- Other Snare
Healing Breeze
Heal Party
Res

Ele runners should avoid being in the line of sight of the rangers until a flash is done, like hiding behind an obstacle or strafing their arrows (ranger flaggers generally don't have RTW).

Water runners should be able to dominate air runners in terms of being able to bring the flag to the flagstand. Since the only slowdown the air ele has is knocking them down for 3 secs at the cost of exhuastion.

::Edit::
I've also seen a Mesmer runner:

Crippling Anguish {e} - Snare/Damge
Conjure Phantasm - Covers anguish/damage
Illusion of Haste - Anti-crippling/run
Distortion - Avoiding those cripshots/pin downs
Maybe Illusion of Weakness
Other skills to benefit the party

Divineshadows · Apr 21, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolydarg

Distortion - Avoiding those cripshots/pin downs

Distortion gives 75% evade chance. Crippling shot cannot be blocked or evaded.

Wolydarg · Apr 21, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Yeah, I just remembered that after I posted it at school and had to leave.

But the 75% chance is still nice anyways, whether it be saving your hide from warriors or avoiding a pin down from a NPC archer, and since I can't think of the rest of the build I thought Distortion would be good for a Me flagger to carry.

Greedy Gus · Apr 21, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Here is the basic GvG flag runner:

-
Shard Storm
Ice Spikes
Deep Freeze
-
Armor of Mist
Ether Prodigy {E}
Heal Party
Healing Breeze
Blurred Vision -or- Ice Prison -or- Res Sig

It specifically does not have water trident in high level GvG. Water trident would be a really great skill if the arc wasn't so high, meaning you have to be quite close to your target to reliably get a lot of KDs. Ether prodigy is just so beastly at pumping out heal parties and the 3 main ice snares that it's basically always used.

Wolydarg · Apr 21, 2006, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Here is the basic GvG flag runner:

-
Shard Storm
Ice Spikes
Deep Freeze
-
Armor of Mist
Ether Prodigy {E}
Heal Party
Healing Breeze
Blurred Vision -or- Ice Prison -or- Res Sig

It specifically does not have water trident in high level GvG. Water trident would be a really great skill if the arc wasn't so high, meaning you have to be quite close to your target to reliably get a lot of KDs. Ether prodigy is just so beastly at pumping out heal parties and the 3 main ice snares that it's basically always used.

When they're in an ice prison they can't dodge water trident, and deepfreeze? We were looking at all the water snares and deep freeze was the only one ruled out immediately. 3 second casting, 25 energy. Don't think even prodigy can cover that. Though the recharge on it isn't too bad. Just that 25 energy seemed a bit too big.

I'll give it a run later to see how it is before I pass too much judgement >_>

JR · Apr 21, 2006, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolydarg

When they're in an ice prison they can't dodge water trident, and deepfreeze? We were looking at all the water snares and deep freeze was the only one ruled out immediately. 3 second casting, 25 energy. Don't think even prodigy can cover that. Though the recharge on it isn't too bad. Just that 25 energy seemed a bit too big.

I'll give it a run later to see how it is before I pass too much judgement >_>

Water Trident is an elite, and therefore can't be used with Ether Prodigy (the one skill that almost single handedly makes eles worthwhile.

Deep Freeze is awesome.

Divineshadows · Apr 21, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Deep Freeze is awesome.

Agreed. It is so awesome that it is worth casting even with 0 in the attribute to get the unconditional AoE snare effect for 10 seconds. Inspired hex anyone? A fast casting inspired deep freeze lets you target the snare even better.

Parkerbsb · Apr 22, 2006, 02:04 PM // 14:04

... and alot of people told me I was crazy for using deep freeze in my air build awhile back

Greedy Gus · Apr 22, 2006, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Agreed. It is so awesome that it is worth casting even with 0 in the attribute to get the unconditional AoE snare effect for 10 seconds. Inspired hex anyone? A fast casting inspired deep freeze lets you target the snare even better.

It would rarely be efficient or even possible to cast deep freeze as a mesmer, with such a small energy buffer (max energy) and no ether prodigy.

Quote:

I'll give it a run later to see how it is before I pass too much judgement >_>

Or, you know, actually watch some observer modes? Ether prodigy kicks out over 5 pips of energy, more than enough to power anything.

Dzan · Apr 22, 2006, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Deep Freeze is rather godly on a water runner.

The most common mistake people make when building a runner is building it with the #1 goal in mind to "solo the other runner." One on one duels with the enemy runner happen occasionally and you should definitely have a plan for that situation, but it shouldn't be the main focus of your running build.

In my experience running flag, you duel the enemy runner in about 1 out of 3 matches, so in 66% of matches its a senario that never happens. That said, in EVERY match you help out fighting at the flag stand or with the main group at least to some extent. It's that common situation that makes skills like Deep Freeze earn a spot on the bar of a water ele runner and why skills like Holy Veil usually do not.