Curse

Kieren · Apr 30, 2006, 04:19 AM // 04:19

But Loch,

One of the biggest draws to the old system of Alliance battles, was that it rewarded you for spontaneously (or pre-planned) teamwork. Those players that took the lead, and could qwell the horde, got great results, and were even more effective. Your work is a perfect example, as players got used to the system, they naturally would want to work together and cooperation would be fostered through experience.

Now though, because we're forced to pretty much be split squads (ty no communication, lol) the inherent advantage is lost, as it turns into like others said, just another 4v4v4v4v4v4

Yes the randomness could be bad at times, but those players simply added an awesome random factor, all you 4v4 guys could be battling it out, but the tide would nicely turn when the horde of zerglings managed to bust through the middle. Organized Vs Unorganized made for great fun and encouraged everyone else to group on their own accord.

Plus, lately it's been a pain and a half to actually get into the missions, no Luxons seem to want to fight

A User Name · Apr 30, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

Note: I've experienced Alliance Battles in the FPE, as a random player in a 12-man mob, and as part of a 4-player squad doing what it could to capture the map (which is what everyone has to do now, apparently).

I won't repeat anything I said, but I think people should think about why it was changed to 3 teams of 4 before you say the mode is unplayable. Try playing as a balanced, self-sustained squad of four. (Hint: bring a monk, a warrior with "Charge" to help you run around, and two other characters of your choice). Try running around capturing resource points. Try skirmishing against other squads. Try running away from larger mobs. You'll find more depth than the previous mindset of "ZOMG RANDOM CHAOS EVERYONE RUN TO THE MIDDLE AND BASH EACH OTHER SILLY!"

You know what? Even with this extra "depth", it's still not as hardcore a mode as Heroes' Ascent, so anybody can play it. Hell, maybe it's even less hardcore than Team Arenas, since you have 8 other teammates to help you out if you're not that good at skirmishes.

Of course, I still agree that there should be some way to communicate to the rest of the 12-player team. But I disagree that Guild Wars needs a 12v12 random chaos mode - even when playing as a 4-player team in FPE, the mode itself was much much more relaxed than Heroes' Ascent or Team Arenas.

It seems like ArenaNet wants Alliance battles to strike a balance between the tactical nature of built teams and the relaxed atmosphere that comes from random teams, so that casual PvP'ers will be interested while not offering just a larger-scale Random Arenas.

*cough* loch you're wrong *cough* For the FPE you do realize that there was many poeple who were just starting the game due to an invite?

Meaning it was prolly a bit more disorganzied than it would be usually, but aside from that leaders could arise and organize the random people into teams. For my first round i had no idea what i was doing but a player told me to get into one of the groups of 6 and do your thing. After i had become experienced with it i began to do the same and organize the random poepel into teams that i had little control over but still would stay in a group and i could support when playing as a monk. I agree that heal party and such shoulld only work per group of 4, but you really should be able to SEE your ALLIES health bars and TALK to your ALLIES. Also, loch these causal gamers hate to wait to get into a group. I am one of these casual gamers playing
about an hour a day, usually less. I DONT want to spend a quarter of the time getting a group together. Now about tatics while being able to TALK to your ALLIES if you saw the Luxons for example had a group of 8 people in one area you could talk to everyone and prolly get people to come and help you out. Now if you see that there is a group of 8 luxons coming at you, You say, "Oh, ummm help plz" on all chat during that time your 2 groups of team mates may capture 1 point since one group of 4 will meet up with the other, and the other will prolly only capture 1 and since your group of 4 has just been smashed by 8 players they equal out. By limiting it 4v4v4 vs. 4v4v4 you have also limited the tatical uses of it compared to 12v12 operating as a team.

Kodoku67 · Apr 30, 2006, 09:09 PM // 21:09

They should just change it back to the way it was and limit the effect of party spells to 8 closest (like someone mentioned). Heal party and aegis already affect up to 8 in gvg...makes sense to just limit it to that.

I also think that they should increase the party invite size to 12 so people can organize if they wanted to. Same thing happened in FPE when guilds would form groups of 4 and hit join at the same time. But to get this to work well Anet would have to enable random joins to fill the spots that are left if you couldnt fill the 12.

With these enabled you can still form coordinated parties or just click enter and join the chaos.

Change it back!

-Kod

Mynghul · May 01, 2006, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Is it possible to do ABs with a PvP character? I made a PvP character and searched my GH for the alliance NPC but I couldn't find him. Maybe because my guild has a new guild hall? Any help would be appreciated.

JiggyFly · May 01, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

This new stuff blows, I did about 50+ matches during the Preview event and it was fun. You could go with guildies or simply zone in by yourself. Quick, fun, 12v12 battles.

The not being able to communicate with your team part, is the stupidest thing I think I have seen Anet do yet. It doesn't even make any sense...

Simple fix, if you leave your allaince loses rating (or whatever it is they will have), and make the amount of rating lost based off of how bad your team lost. Thus, if you leave you greatly hurt the chances of your team winning or losing by less and thus hurt your alliance alot more.

Honestly, I didn't think it would have been possible for Alliance battles to go from being the most fun I've had in quite awhile, to being downright lame unfun versions of their former selves.

neocloud · May 02, 2006, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Im not an avid pvp'r because i don't like forming 8 man hoh groups and have never been a real guild person. I like random arenas but one leave and your group is SOL. So i played FPE and LOVED the 12v12, i could join a group up to 4 player, or go in alone, and work with the whole to win, and the majority it seemed I won. Leader were apparent, and for 12 people having control of the radar, only the few trying to direct people used it, it was GREAT, granted many skills were imbalanced due to thier effect of 12 people, but there are many ways to solve that problem...

I propose as someone earlier mentioned that the other 8 players appear as allies, but I also expect the ability to join a alience battle as a single person and get grouped into a party of four.

I rushed out and preordered two copies of factions (i have two accounts) the day after FPE because the 12v12 battles had sold me on the game, and then they change it into a glorified TA.. please

Change it Back

Loch · May 02, 2006, 04:59 AM // 04:59

You people act as if getting a group of 4 is impossible. IT'S NOT THAT HARD.

I mean, how the hell do you guys even PvE if you don't know how to get THREE OTHER PLAYERS for a party??? Wouldn't you rather put together a group, just so you can be assured that you have a monk and some decent damage output?

PvP isn't for you if you can't put together a rudimentary 4-person party.

Mysterial · May 02, 2006, 05:34 AM // 05:34

I care less about requiring four people (although I see no need for it) and a lot more about not being able to tell the status of the other eight people on my team. It makes the whole game feel more disconnected. Even if it was because Heal Party and friends were overpowered with 12 people, that's no excuse for not making the other team members show up as "Allies", nor being unable to communicate with them.

Eviance · May 02, 2006, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Loch you are missing the point - have you been in the alliance battle arenas?

It was a pissing contest between the guild members of ...err I can't say can I?
Anyways it was because their leet guilds only wanted leet players and refused to take the odd man. And who wants to pull a four man PUG group together only to have 3 of your 4 leave ... Now You have no one!

In pve you can simply get henchies (they used to not even talk back to you >_>). Like a lot of people have said it took the fun right out of it and I still am not sure I want to pick up my copy of Factions - This was the seller for me, in the FPE I played the alliance battles and even controlled a few to victory! It was great! There were some poor individuals that were new, so throw them a bone and say follow me or follow so and so... Now you cannot help them - they can't enter alone and my guild wont go near those battles without a 4man guild group because they dont want to pick up random quitters.

It's turned into a fame fest just like HA and TA... Heck even some of the missions in Cantha had people shouting Rank 6 warrior looking for group! and those were for the missions!

It's just sad that GW went from being newb friendly to elitest frenzy!
(and this is why people are upset)

Red · May 02, 2006, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

PvP isn't for you if you can't put together a rudimentary 4-person party.

ANALOGY TIME! (yay!)
So while preparing for a trip to the beach, you call a hotel. Upon finding that it has a shuttle service to the beach and room service to clean your towels, you reserve a room.

After you arrive at the hotel, however, you are told in no uncertain terms that you will not be provided with a shuttle, and that you can use the laundry facility on site. "What, you drive yourself to this hotel," the manager says, "but you can't make it to the bloody beach? And it's just a washer and dryer, for pete's sakes! Shut up and deal."

Please understand, my friend; it's not that this new condition is unbearable. It is that we were promised one thing, and given another after we made our committment by paying for a copy. We can say 'promised' here, because as neocloud stated: I rushed out and preordered two copies of factions (i have two accounts) the day after FPE because the 12v12 battles had sold me on the game.

The Guild Wars team knew full well and good that, by letting new players enter in through invites, that this is what they would experience--and this is what they would base their decisions on (the Prophecies trial being all too short). I know that almost all of my guildmates went BONKERS over the Alliance Battles--PvE guildmates who I couldn't pay Globs of Ectoplasm to come to Hall of Heroes with us, spent the entire FPE doing nothing but Alliance Battles.

And now, "it's just a washer and dryer, for pete's sakes!" So sorry, but what ANet did here violates both the merchantability and fitness concepts of Implied Warranty. Secondary link that's easier to understand about Implied Warranty.

><

sir lockt · May 02, 2006, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mynghul

Is it possible to do ABs with a PvP character? I made a PvP character and searched my GH for the alliance NPC but I couldn't find him. Maybe because my guild has a new guild hall? Any help would be appreciated.

Yeah it is... the guy is in the GH if your alliance has an alliance standing. So your alliance leader should fix that

art_ · May 02, 2006, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redly

ANALOGY TIME! (yay!)
So while preparing for a trip to the beach, you call a hotel. Upon finding that it has a shuttle service to the beach and room service to clean your towels, you reserve a room.

After you arrive at the hotel, however, you are told in no uncertain terms that you will not be provided with a shuttle, and that you can use the laundry facility on site. "What, you drive yourself to this hotel," the manager says, "but you can't make it to the bloody beach? And it's just a washer and dryer, for pete's sakes! Shut up and deal."

Please understand, my friend; it's not that this new condition is unbearable. It is that we were promised one thing, and given another after we made our committment by paying for a copy. We can say 'promised' here, because as neocloud stated: I rushed out and preordered two copies of factions (i have two accounts) the day after FPE because the 12v12 battles had sold me on the game.

The Guild Wars team knew full well and good that, by letting new players enter in through invites, that this is what they would experience--and this is what they would base their decisions on (the Prophecies trial being all too short). I know that almost all of my guildmates went BONKERS over the Alliance Battles--PvE guildmates who I couldn't pay Globs of Ectoplasm to come to Hall of Heroes with us, spent the entire FPE doing nothing but Alliance Battles.

And now, "it's just a washer and dryer, for pete's sakes!" So sorry, but what ANet did here violates both the merchantability and fitness concepts of Implied Warranty. Secondary link that's easier to understand about Implied Warranty.

><

Typing in a different font makes you right.

Elrodien · May 02, 2006, 09:11 AM // 09:11

I was so looking forward to playing Alliance battles after the factions weekend, it was the one highlight of a pretty lame beta imo.

AND THEY CHANGED IT??

12 vs 12 chaos was pure condensed fun and they took it away from us..........

*sob*

Esprit · May 02, 2006, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redly

Please understand, my friend; it's not that this new condition is unbearable. It is that we were promised one thing, and given another after we made our committment by paying for a copy. We can say 'promised' here, because as neocloud stated: I rushed out and preordered two copies of factions (i have two accounts) the day after FPE because the 12v12 battles had sold me on the game.

ANET never promised how Alliance battles would work after the FPE, we just assumed since everyone seemed to enjoy it so much. We were told that the content in the FPE was not finalized and that changes could be expected.

Eviance · May 02, 2006, 06:20 PM // 18:20

That is why it is called "Implied" Warranty

Most everyone was under the understanding that it would be at least mostly like the original and thusly we put in our orders for the game based on that and that alone. It now is nothing like it used to be!

The implication was a 12 v 12 battle even the hotkeys for for 9-12 IMPLIED that it would still be the same or at least close to the same.... Now it's team arenas on a larger scale.... NOT implied with the FPE.

I think that is the only point - we understand that things change, and I see so many shouting about "THIS IS WHAT YOU ASKED FOR!" or "You KNEW they were changing it!"

Nope I never recieved that memo on either account and had I known either way I would be protesting it the same as I am now!

JR · May 02, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by art_

Typing in a different font makes you right.

That post just earnt you +15 e-street creds!

Echis · May 02, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

the sole reason i bought factions was for the alliance battles. if anet doesnt get it's act in gear about changing stuff like this (selling us on one point, then changing it before we buy it with 0 warnings. see the "skill > time played" promise, the "no grind" promise, and the 12v12 implications) then they will have lost any future sales to me. the time it takes to unlock a good ammount of skills has already lost them a few of my friends.

Egg Shen · May 02, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

Note: I've experienced Alliance Battles in the FPE, as a random player in a 12-man mob, and as part of a 4-player squad doing what it could to capture the map (which is what everyone has to do now, apparently).

I won't repeat anything I said, but I think people should think about why it was changed to 3 teams of 4 before you say the mode is unplayable. Try playing as a balanced, self-sustained squad of four. (Hint: bring a monk, a warrior with "Charge" to help you run around, and two other characters of your choice). Try running around capturing resource points. Try skirmishing against other squads. Try running away from larger mobs. You'll find more depth than the previous mindset of "ZOMG RANDOM CHAOS EVERYONE RUN TO THE MIDDLE AND BASH EACH OTHER SILLY!"

You know what? Even with this extra "depth", it's still not as hardcore a mode as Heroes' Ascent, so anybody can play it. Hell, maybe it's even less hardcore than Team Arenas, since you have 8 other teammates to help you out if you're not that good at skirmishes.

Of course, I still agree that there should be some way to communicate to the rest of the 12-player team. But I disagree that Guild Wars needs a 12v12 random chaos mode - even when playing as a 4-player team in FPE, the mode itself was much much more relaxed than Heroes' Ascent or Team Arenas.

It seems like ArenaNet wants Alliance battles to strike a balance between the tactical nature of built teams and the relaxed atmosphere that comes from random teams, so that casual PvP'ers will be interested while not offering just a larger-scale Random Arenas.

I hate to pile on you, as many others have addressed your points, but I'm really struggling to understand where you're coming from. It's almost like you think the way it was during the preview FORCED random chaos. I'm sorry, but that just isn't the case.

All the things you asked us to "try" were actually easier to do w/ the former set-up. I did them all many times during the preview, and you're right, it was fun. But you do realize that it was entirely possible to form a balanced group of four prior to entering the battle before the changes, right? (that's an honest question. . . not trying to be a punk) If all the other clowns are in a massive free-for-all at the center point, your group can still play tactically w/ your pre-formed squad of four.

And, as others have noted, forcing us join a group of four is just increasing the number of clicks I must perform to get in a game. I see a group of three and I invite myself until accepted. Big deal.

Eviance · May 03, 2006, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Our guild isn't doing alliance battles till it goes back to at least some semblance of what it was... I know many guilds aren't... The place is virtually empty: from 7:45pm - 8:00pm GMT there were TWO American districts
D1 had an estimate of about 40people
D2 had a total of EXACTLY 2 people

I can already tell that people are loving it... If it was so great the way it was there would be at least 4 districts with at least 2 being full.

Yeah I know what some of you are thinking: "So some people don't have factions yet!"
But the Market Place has 6 districts (had a guildie check it out for me)
(These are all American Districts just so ya know)
The first lvl 20 mission has 2 districts usually (didnt get to check tonight).
The Kieneng Center is still pumped with districts.

People aren't lacking Factions - Alliance Battles are lacking People! and with good reason!

Again for those of you who are spouting "You asked for it". No I saw the link to the thread and I read the horribly long dribble of that thread and at least 75% (I am sure closer to 80% really) was against any change coming to Alliance Battles at all! Especially the random entering!

And strangely I saw very little of anyone saying anything about overpowering monkness o_O?

there were very few complaints about MMs but I saw a lot more of those than I did of monks being overpowered with heal party and aegis.

Please if you plan to post research the facts - very few asked for the change or if they did, they did so in private - for I have seen little about it as I am sure the rest of you who are so ticked off would agree!

Tell me how well this is going?

sir lockt · May 03, 2006, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by eviance

People aren't lacking Factions - Alliance Battles are lacking People! and with good reason!

True on that. Also a lot of ppl looked forward to the alliance battles, so they would start out to test them immediatly.

Quote:

re were very few complaints about MMs but I saw a lot more of those than I did of monks being overpowered with heal party and aegis.

The "uberness" of this skills only resulted in the need of less monks, which is a good idea. To have an equal division over all characters you should have 12,5% of each, so lets round that up to 2. With the division in this kind of groups you will need a monk in every group. Ending up with a minimum of 3. I think you will see it difficult to find parties for many non-monks in the current system.

Those massive heal party and aegis are a good way to limit the need of monks, leaving space open for other characters to safely enter...