Curse

BeowulfKamdas · May 09, 2006, 12:53 PM // 12:53

now that they added 5 AL to the existing platemail, i was wondering if that was enough incentive for warriors to start switching from their old gladiator armor to the new platemail?

Also I was wondering why gladiator's armor has been preferred for so long. A guild mate asked why use glads when all that matters is energy regeneration in the long term and I really couldn't come up with a decent explanation.

Thanks in advance.

GranDeWun · May 09, 2006, 01:16 PM // 13:16

5 armor is an 8% damage reduction, so not likely. Energy > armor because offense (powered by energy) > defense.

Although the energy benefit from gladiators is not regen, it provides an initial boost, plus it is a larger battery to fill up from all the skills that restore energy.

ghostof · May 09, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

If a Warrior needs more then glads armor the team your fighting sucks or your secondary classes died, you dont have a rez and the fight is over.

Warriors are pressure in pvp not damage soakers. In PvE yes more armor is good. In PvP monks take the brunt of the damage, then mesmers then necros then elementalist/ritualists, Assassins/rangers then warriors are targeted.

I only put on my plate if I am running a relic in HoH.

Alot of Shock Warriors will add in Dragons Chest and Leggings because they can afford the energy by using artifacts.

JR · May 09, 2006, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

If a Warrior needs more then glads armor the team your fighting sucks or your secondary classes died, you dont have a rez and the fight is over.

Warriors are pressure in pvp not damage soakers. In PvE yes more armor is good. In PvP monks take the brunt of the damage, then mesmers then necros then elementalist/ritualists, Assassins/rangers then warriors are targeted.

Warriors are generally not priority targets to begin with DUE to their high AL, which they need to extend into your opponents lines with a higher degree of safety. The argument is a bit circular. They aren't targeted because of their high AL, therefore they don't need higher AL, but they can't do their job without high AL.

Not that I am saying you should take Plate every time now, but saying they don't need higher AL because they aren't a priority target to the other team is flawed. Personally on something like an Axe Warrior who may be fairly non energy intensive; I would take Plate now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

Alot of Shock Warriors will add in Dragons Chest and Leggings because they can afford the energy by using artifacts.

So they swap the energy from glads and the defense of a shield, for the energy of a focus and the defense of a different chest/legs piece? Seems a tad silly to me.

Iraqalypse Now · May 09, 2006, 03:35 PM // 15:35

A lot of the damage a warrior takes will end up being armor ignoring anyhow... so I would recommend running Berzerker's set (except for weapon helm and knight's boots, of course). If you really need an AL vs elemental damage set, I'd run sentinel's as an armor swap, perhaps with the peice with minor strength having a swap to major/sup strength for when your base strength is 10 or 11.

I'd say that berzerker's and Gladiatior's is what you should be using almost all the time, with a sentinel's set for when you really need AL vs elemental damage.

ghostof · May 09, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Warriors are generally not priority targets to begin with DUE to their high AL, which they need to extend into your opponents lines with a higher degree of safety. The argument is a bit circular. They aren't targeted because of their high AL, therefore they don't need higher AL, but they can't do their job without high AL.

Not that I am saying you should take Plate every time now, but saying they don't need higher AL because they aren't a priority target to the other team is flawed. Personally on something like an Axe Warrior who may be fairly non energy intensive; I would take Plate now.

So they swap the energy from glads and the defense of a shield, for the energy of a focus and the defense of a different chest/legs piece? Seems a tad silly to me.

Shields only protect the area immediately infront of a target while a +90 Dragon is constant. Not at all silly.

The reasons warriors can exist in the backline is because monks can heal you. End of story. It has nothing to do with AL in PvP. High armor mitigates very little damage vs standard builds (blood necro/Earth Spike, Conditions, Hexes) Why a warrior works is because it has health and some armor and goes after the other parties "soft" targets. Forcing the monks to focus on healing themselves vs. there party members. Monks do not fear a warrior at all. I can mitigate warrior damage very easily. It is the pressure along with the rest of your build that hurts monks. Say pressure then a spike. Bottomline is more ar is completely unnecessary and I have never died warrior to warrior because my armor was not sufficient.

JR · May 09, 2006, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

Shields only protect the area immediately infront of a target while a +90 Dragon is constant. Not at all silly.

A myth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

The reasons warriors can exist in the backline is because monks can heal you. End of story. It has nothing to do with AL in PvP.

That is ridiculous. Warriors regularly have to over-extend into opposing lines to spike backline targets; your monks will not be in range of them when they do that unless you put them in a very risky situation. In these situations the higher AL makes a huge difference, and it is the reason why warriors need it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

High armor mitigates very little damage vs standard builds (blood necro/Earth Spike, Conditions, Hexes)

None of which are standard builds? Blood and Obs Flame spike are rare in GvG, for a reason; they are easily outplayed. Condition builds? Very much a thing of the past as far as I can see. Hex builds may make a come-back, but that is no reason to discount armor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

Why a warrior works is because it has health and some armor and goes after the other parties "soft" targets. Forcing the monks to focus on healing themselves vs. there party members.

They work because they have health and some armor? Not really seeing your point there. And yes they are decent pressure on backlines, but they are not some secondary offense that just opens up for something else as you imply. Warriors are the killers, decent warriors will rock your face with adren spikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

Monks do not fear a warrior at all. I can mitigate warrior damage very easily.

This statement alone just discredited your entire post. Warriors are the single biggest DPS source in the game, full stop. You can mitigate a warriors damage easily? No, you can't. They have a stronger ability to pressure than any other class in the game, and they have the ability to pull off devastating spikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

It is the pressure along with the rest of your build that hurts monks. Say pressure then a spike. Bottomline is more ar is completely unnecessary and I have never died warrior to warrior because my armor was not sufficient.

I'm sorry but your post sounds more and more like it is based on experience in Random Arena.

ghostof · May 09, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Ya ok JR. No one runs spikes in GvG. Or you could simply state +20 vs. Physical is better then +16 with added energy also allowing you to switch to a shield for over 100 armor protection against spikes. Of course I am a random arena noob to you.

Warriors dps is now secondary. Conditions are as critical as ever to gvg.

Your damage output can be halved unlike any other build with 1 hex. Most warriors are totally dependent on a monk to survive.

I see lots of warders in gvg with obsidan spike. I see lots of necros on teams as secondary monks supporting healing and blood spiking with an aderline spike. I see lots of warrior hate. Warriors may be the single most over-rated blow hards in the game who over empathize there importance on all aspects of the game.

I love my warrior but it is not even the most critical role to be played in a group in gvg. Frankly alot of groups and builds dont even need warriors primary or secondary warriors that is how much the build isn't as superior as JR plays them up to be.

All "spikes" are easily outplayed. Good spike teams require a specific hall that prevents spliting. I am well aware of GvG strategy. However, for anyone that plays RA and can have success eat it you elitest snob. As if anyone that plays any random arenas couldn't possible know more then you or have any inkling as to how this games mechanics work.

Here is a suggestion. Next time you recommend people dont use an armor type check the math and why it makes sense as I stated it can and does make sense to use different chest/legging in certain warrior builds. Shock warrior for instance.

Auntie I · May 09, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I'm curious Ghostof, what guild are you in? What is your guild rank?

The things you're describing aren't what I see when I watch the top guilds play.

BTW I am NOT in one of the top guilds but I do enjoy watching them and learning.

JR · May 09, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

Ya ok JR. No one runs spikes in GvG.

Nobody truly decent runs a pure gimmick spike in GvG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

Warriors dps is now secondary. Conditions are as critical as ever to gvg.

So why does virtually every top tier guild run two Warriors? Why do they get kills with those two Warriors? The simple fact is that you either run warriors or you run pure caster/ranger spike; because they are the only ways to get kills. And Warriors are far more flexible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

Your damage output can be halved unlike any other build with 1 hex.

Which will be removed by the hex removal in your build?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

Most warriors are totally dependent on a monk to survive.

Isn't every class in a build? Warriors if anything slightly less so. They do require more support to be effective, because they merit the other team bringing much more shut-down. The simple fact is that they earn bringing this support because they are some offensive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

I see lots of warders in gvg with obsidan spike.

I don't? I see Flashbots with Orb/Strike and a Ward Melee maybe. Very rarely you may see a top tier guild running a pure Earth Ele, I can't remember the last time I saw that though. What GvG's have you been watching?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

I see lots of necros on teams as secondary monks supporting healing and blood spiking with an aderline spike.

Which is more dangerous, that one necro with Shadow Strike or Gaze, or the two Warriors raging faces?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

I see lots of warrior hate.

Because Warriors are scary enough to merit people bringing that hate, and usefull enough to bring the tools to keep them clean to do their job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

Warriors may be the single most over-rated blow hards in the game who over empathize there importance on all aspects of the game.

Point me to a decent build, which get kills, that doesn't have Warriors in it. Aside from pure Caster/Ranger spike which I covered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

I love my warrior but it is not even the most critical role to be played in a group in gvg. Frankly alot of groups and builds dont even need warriors primary or secondary warriors that is how much the build isn't as superior as JR plays them up to be.

I don't play them up to be anything, I tell it like it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

All "spikes" are easily outplayed. Good spike teams require a specific hall that prevents spliting. I am well aware of GvG strategy.

"Good" spike will have the ability to win in almost any Guild Hall. Splitting against a spike team with a decent build and a good head for tactics is not an instant win strategy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

However, for anyone that plays RA and can have success eat it you elitest snob. As if anyone that plays any random arenas couldn't possible know more then you or have any inkling as to how this games mechanics work.

I'll ignore this little rant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

Here is a suggestion. Next time you recommend people dont use an armor type check the math and why it makes sense as I stated it can and does make sense to use different chest/legging in certain warrior builds. Shock warrior for instance.

Try running the numbers yourself, and checking it out. Your point is ridiculous because you don't even need the extra energy from a focus if you play the Warrior right. Maybe if you are the type of person that likes to exaust yourself down to 0 energy with shock, and then cry that you don't have the energy to use Frenzy...?

It is slightly unsurprising to see that your Guild isn't on the ladder.

Parkerbsb · May 09, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Ya ok JR. No one runs spikes in GvG. Or you could simply state +20 vs. Physical is better then +16 with added energy also allowing you to switch to a shield for over 100 armor protection against spikes. Of course I am a random arena noob to you.

Lots of teams run spike, not many GOOD teams run spike

Quote:

Warriors dps is now secondary. Conditions are as critical as ever to gvg.

Your damage output can be halved unlike any other build with 1 hex. Most warriors are totally dependent on a monk to survive.

So conditions can be removed easier than hexes are applied (restore conditions, extinguish MARTYR) but warriors are useless and conditions are critical?

Quote:

I see lots of warders in gvg with obsidan spike. I see lots of necros on teams as secondary monks supporting healing and blood spiking with an aderline spike. I see lots of warrior hate. Warriors may be the single most over-rated blow hards in the game who over empathize there importance on all aspects of the game.

Mo/N's are fairly uncommon now in GvG's at least at semi high levels... as are obs spikers granted you do see them OCASSIONALLY but not as often as you seem to imply - also yes there is alot of warrior hate, that's because left unchecked they will kill you.

Quote:

I love my warrior but it is not even the most critical role to be played in a group in gvg. Frankly alot of groups and builds dont even need warriors primary or secondary warriors that is how much the build isn't as superior as JR plays them up to be.

Gimmicky builds - as we've seen numerous times in the true tournaments, balanced pressure > gimmics.

Quote:

All "spikes" are easily outplayed. Good spike teams require a specific hall that prevents spliting. I am well aware of GvG strategy. However, for anyone that plays RA and can have success eat it you elitest snob. As if anyone that plays any random arenas couldn't possible know more then you or have any inkling as to how this games mechanics work.

You are right there, if someone ONLY plays RA they wont' know as much as the people that spend hours testing and playing at high level... by definition, random can not possibley be high level play.

Quote:

Here is a suggestion. Next time you recommend people dont use an armor type check the math and why it makes sense as I stated it can and does make sense to use different chest/legging in certain warrior builds. Shock warrior for instance.

I havn't tested out the numbers so I won't say anything about this point, altho I doubt very much JR would say something w/o knowing what he's talking about.

Edit: apparently I type to slow

icemonkey · May 09, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

I want to say something but im not going thru that guys crap line by line like JR- did. One thing i have noticed is that RA exists in a wierd little vacuum. There are many builds that do very well in RA but are just garbage in any other PvP format. Similarly, I can take a standard shock axe warrior adrenaline spiker from a GvG build(with healing signet for self heal of course) and even if i can get my conditions wiped by a monk, its still not that effective in RA. theres so much goofy shit in RA, like inteptitude and more stuff like that. That stuff you never see outside of RA.

So the take home lesson is what works in RA does not in GvG necessarily work, and vise versa.

Vermilion Okeanos · May 09, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Personally, I believe 2 berserk set is the way to go. One set with 2 sup rune, another with no -hp at all.

But being on topic...

The only place that gladiator armor would sux is when your opponent is energy hungry and burning mesemer.

ghostof · May 10, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

I am in a guild that runs balanced. I am not into the game of tossing names out but I am in a +300 rank guild.

My Original retort stated warriors dont need more AR and JR commented they operate in the backline over-extend. I pointed out that dragons +90 +10 vs physical and the ability to swap out for either energy or a shield make dragons chest and legging a viable alternative to glads for some build such as shock warriors. 90 + 16 is 106 vs. All dmg and is 116 against physical. Glads is 80 +16 96 vs. all dmg + 116 against Physical. Especially against spikes. Which his response was "no one good runs spikes".

So with dragons you have an all around higher ar vs. more damage types and the usage of a artifact swap gives you more energy to shock, stance, shout throughout the battle and the lose of +5 energy while the shield is equippedis not that substanial considering you'll be swapping out as soon as possible to continue your pressure of the monks and mesmers.

I see alot of guilds are running W/Mo with CoP now. I saw last pride running it the other night. I am not saying I use Dragons, all I said was it is not a noob decision to use dragons chest and leggings.

Finally, my first point was warriors don't need more armor. Somehow this is lost in JR's responses.

Medion · May 10, 2006, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Now, I am not 100% sure about this, but don't shields also have additional bonuses such as +45 health and -2 received damage?
Now you said obsidian spikers and blood spikers are around a lot, and lets say that's true. Obsidian Flame and I think blood spike too ignores armour totally, so it doesn't differ if you use 200 armour or 80 armour. The -2 damage on the shield does make it different against Obsidian Flame though, and the +45 health even more I'd say.
But then again, you are in a top 300 hundred guild while I am not...

BLODORN · May 10, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

I'd take Berserkers armor in place of Gladiators, not Dragons.

ghostof · May 10, 2006, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medion

Now, I am not 100% sure about this, but don't shields also have additional bonuses such as +45 health and -2 received damage?
Now you said obsidian spikers and blood spikers are around a lot, and lets say that's true. Obsidian Flame and I think blood spike too ignores armour totally, so it doesn't differ if you use 200 armour or 80 armour. The -2 damage on the shield does make it different against Obsidian Flame though, and the +45 health even more I'd say.
But then again, you are in a top 300 hundred guild while I am not...

Ya but I could be the worst 300 ranked member ever

The warrior is never spiked first in any spike group I played with unless they are way over-extended. I never said dont take a shield in your build. That would be silly. Take a shield, an artifact and 2-3 different weapons that you swap out. I like a +12 energy +30 health air artifact and a +30 health -5 (20%) str shield as a shock warrior.

The point of whether more ar is necessary I already said no warrior needs more ar.

It's just not noobish "RA" as JR implied. 5 energy or 10 more ar seems a reasonable decision to make and if someone chooses 10 more ar is it that stoopid?

I agree on berzerker armor for added health. Better choice.

That is all.

Blow Up Doll · May 10, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Wow - r300+ guild - once you get out of the top 500's - you could win most matches with a decent PUG - if you focus on GvG, any decent team can make the top 300's without any problems. There is a huge difference however between top 300's and top 100's...trust me - JR knows what he is talking about and I would soil myself with laughter if you think you could survive in a GvG vs Evo for more than 10 minutes...

A major misconception is that the top guilds do not run a spike. As JR has said - they do not run a gimmick spike...- Look at any decent balenced build in observation mode - if you target a player being attacked - look at the damage they are recieving (not all from obsid or whatever but lots of different sources) and tell me that they are not doing a spike.

GvG and Ra are different yes but i do agree with JR (and just about every other sane person -i.e. not ghostof) armour does make a difference for warriors as he said 'Isn't every class in a build? [Dependant of monks for survival] Warriors if anything slightly less so.' So why are warriors slightly less dependant - Because of armour...

Ghostof said 'I have never died warrior to warrior because my armor was not sufficient.' So according to him armour does not make any difference when fighting against another warrior (try taking your armour off before you fight if you really think it makes no difference...)...I'm not even going to start explaining why that is total crap. I think my six year old brother would realise that if armour protects you and you have more armour than the other person then you are better protected...

Zui · May 10, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

Ya but I could be the worst 300 ranked member ever

I dbout that, I just checked the ladder, there is no guild with the tags "TV" on it anywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

I like a +12 energy +30 health air artifact and a +30 health -5 (20%) str shield as a shock warrior.

-5 20% chance shield... Do you use a sundering axe too?

Byron · May 11, 2006, 01:14 AM // 01:14

This argument is a little picky IMO. If your warrior is overextened, is 10AL really going to save him from an enemy team spike? Unlikely; the best warrior defense is battlefield awareness. A warrior should be focused on the offensive spectrum, picking armor that will enchance his offensive capability (ie glads for energy, others for survivability on a third-line attack). If you ask me, the actual armor rating shines in target descrepancy: Warriors are seldom targets while they have support or healer allies in range due to their high armor.

As for the spike argument, I agree with JR-'s statement. Even an amazingly practiced and teaked spike such as Illicit Awakening (a few months ago) never made it to the top five. Rifts might go top five intermittently, but I doubt they last long there - even though I'm a fan and hold great respect for their ability. When player expereince and ability are assumed to be equal, flexibility = power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

-5 20% chance shield... Do you use a sundering axe too?

I like those shield specs: constant health bonus. On a pure warrior build, i use that shield. Same idea as a bulwark.