Curse

Blow Up Doll · May 04, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

My top Ta build is a balenced build however the damage it deals will be spike like.

Axe Warrior (W/R)

Axe mastery - 12+3+1 (16)
Strength - 9+1 (10)
Beast Mastery - 9

Skills:
Eviscerate {E}
Axe Rake
Executioner's Strike
Disrupting Chop
Bull's Strike
Sprint
Tiger's Fury
Signet of Resurection

Air Elementalist (E/Anything)

Air Magic - 12+3+1 (16)
Energy Storage - 12+1 (13)

Lightning Orb
Enervating Charge
Lightning Strike
Blinding Flash
Gale
Ether Prodogy/Elemental Attunement {E} (depends on your preference).
Air Attunement
Signet of Ressurection

E-Surge Mesmer (Me/Anything)

Domination Magic - 12+3+1 (16)
Fast Casting - 12+1

Energy Surge {Elite}
Energy Burn
Mind Wrack
Diversion
Guilt/Shame (again; depends on preference)
Power Leak
Blackout
Signet of Resurection

Boon Prot Monk (Mo/Me)

Divine Favour - 11+2+1 (14)
Protection Prayers - 10+2 (12)
Inspiration Magic - 10

Reversal of Fortune
Guardian
Mend Ailment
Inspired Hex
Holy Veil
Mantra of Recall {E}
Contemplation of Purity
Divine Boon

The basic tactics for this build are as follows:
The warrior builds adrenaline on a random target.
The air elementalist spams blinding flash and damage to generally hamper the other team.
The mesmer uses e-draining skills on enemy casters.
The monk just keeps everyone alive.
The warrior acts as caller.
When he calls a target (this does require ts/vent) he and the air ele will spike with the following skills: Warrior - Eviscerate > Axe Rake > Executioner's Strike. Elementalist - Lightning Orb > Enervating Charge > Lightning Strike.
Just before the spike the mesmer will blackout the enemy monk. If there are two monks... the mesmer has a harder job. He must try to e-drain one monk then just before the spike put shame/diversion on him and then blackout the other monk.
This is a spike of about 500-600 damage (also the deep wound inflicted by eviscerate that will take the average 500 life target to 400 life must be taken into consideration). With monks 'blackout'ed for 7 seconds and then imediatly piled with shame/diversion when blackout finishes, there is very little that can be done to stop you killing them off.
Any critism/improvements?

Liquidus · May 04, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

I'm not a expert on team arena, but have you considered a hammer warrior instead of axe? They do less damage but with a knockdown chain, the target will be unable to move or use any defensive skills during the spike. Just a thought. Everything else looks good.

Divineshadows · May 04, 2006, 11:10 PM // 23:10

I am sure this type of build will win you several matches, but...

This build has 0 enchantment removal skills, is very light on condition removal, has no sup divine favor rune on the monk (needed for better boon healing), and the three non-monk characters offer no relief to your monk (not even a heal sig on the warrior). Also, your mesmer has no energy management whatsoever. I would qualify this build as a "monk stomping build" in which you immediately go after the opponent's monk and if it fails then your team's monk will be stomped instead. Many teams run heal other or healing breeze on a E/Mo or a N/Mo and this alone can help stop the monk stomp. Drawing deep wound and crippled off the monk saves the monk's life as well.

Usually for TA, I like to have one E/Mo or N/Mo caster bring draw conditions and heal other and yet another teammate to bring either inspired hex or holy veil. Fill the rest of their bars with shutdown, offense, and of course energy management (unless one is a ranger). It makes for more dynamic characters that can adapt to the situation. Your two /Anythings with only two attributes seem like one-trick ponies to me.

On a functional note, I would not run Ether Prodigy with Air Attunement ever since Prodigy will remove all enchantments currently on you.

Liquidis is right about hammer warriors being good in team arenas. A shock axe is good too, but your warrior lacks reliable knockdown. Bull's strike is easily worked around by smart players knowing the recharge. Frenzy > Tiger's Fury even on an axe warrior.

Zui · May 05, 2006, 01:00 AM // 01:00

This build is obviously designed to kill the other team's monk, but it also has absolutly nothing to defend YOUR monk. What's to prevent the other team from killing your monk(since he has almost no support, save blinding/enervating which easily is countered by a ??/mo with draw conditions).

I'll break down my further criticisim of this by the classes, in the order they were posted:

W/R Axe warrior:

1. Ranger secondary offers almost nothing except the stance Tiger's Fury, which is far less effective in energy than frenzy(which lasts only 1s shorter for no attribute investment, at 1/2 the energy cost, with less than 1/2 of the recharge), and requires you to divert points from other areas. Mainly due to the energy requirment Tiger's Fury will force you to use a zealous axe haft, and due to the high probability of being blinded/price of failured/spirit of failured, you'll be missing a fair bit, as it's almost impossible to totaly keep up with theese hexes and conditions. Not to mention your target WILL be kiting you, which you've put bulls strike and sprint in for, of course tiger's fury will disable theese for 5 seconds, and consume alot of energy. Plus it'll be hard to put tiger's fury back on if you knock the target down, due to the 10 second recharge rate(and the fact that you spent 10 energy to use it, 5 for bulls, 5 for sprint, 10 more for TF 30E total...). OK so hopefuly now you see that Tiger's Fury has way too many drawbacks in this instance to be even remotely effective.

2. Axe Rake is nice for cripple, and for a coverup condition for Evicerate, but all in all Penetrating Blow will give you much more damage. The combo of Eviscerate, Rake, Executioners is also bad, any support class with Draw Conditions should have removed either the deep wound(causing cripple to not cause effect) or the deep wound and the cripple.

3. Disrupting Chop can be a great skill, but due to it being 1s to hit under IAS it's far too slow to actualy inturupt a boonprot, or mesmer with even 9 fast cast(using 2s cast spells), unless you find a pattern in skill usage and time it perfectly(or just get lucky). Besides, don't forget that it's extremely common in TA to hit a team with a blinding flash ele, or a necromancer with Shadow of Fear of Faintheartedness.

4. Bull's Strike is a great skill, but can be worked around by knowing the recharge(although I get the feeling that it's intended to not be used alot, and the ele's Gale is the primary knockdown).

Here's how I'd suggest improving this charactars overall effectiveness:

Change secondary to Necromancer. Bring Plauge Touch instead of Tigers Fury. This will help with condition removal, and even let you throw back certain conditions, which can be extremely fun(like blinding that blinding flash ele, causing his lightning orb to miss).

Replace Axe Rake with Penetrating Blow, and use the combination of Penetrating, Executioners, Eviscerate. This way you deal more damage, and reduce the possibility of deep wound being removed before the spike is complete(which it should be as soon as you land your Eviscerate).

Replace Distupting Chop with Frenzy.Possibly replace Sprint with Rush, to allow you to switch out of frenzy every 4 hits if need be, instead of that nasty 20s recharge on sprint(plus rush has a longer duration than sprint).

Now for the Elementalist/whatever:

Air Attunement can easily be stripped(and WILL be if you use Ether Prodigy), and is dependant on you casting a spell to get the energy back. If it's stripped early, it's essentialy been useless, except to give the other team's mesmer some energy, or deal some damage to you. Same goes for Elemental Attunement(although Ether Prodigy is truely great, by far the best energy managment skill there is).

The Gale is truely great for this team setup, as it can keep the Warrior's target down long enough for him to get off all his skills, and you can still help the spike with orb(2.75s after gale) or strike1.75s after) meaning you'll hit before or about the same time as the evicscerate if you do it right.

My suggestions to change this charactar would be quite simple:

Secondary monk, 10 healing prayers, 9 energy storage, 16 air magic, rest in prot.

Heal Other instead of Air Attunement, this takes some stress off your monk.

And another change you could possibly make is dropping Ressurection Signet for Draw Conditions. Obviously this isin't a great option but IMO it's far better than not having this skill or heal other. Your other choice, which I should have mentioned earlier is making the W/E a shock axe, and replacing your Gale with Draw Conditions. But I for one think that it will probably work better without the Ressurection Signet.

You'll just have to be careful with your energy, as if you use Gale and Ether Prodigy too much, you might find yourself in trouble.

For the Mesmer:

You're going to need Enchantment Removal, that's the major flaw in this charactar.

Also, Power Leak is a great inturupt, but it's not that great against boonprots(unless you want to inturupt Guardian, or Mantra of Recall/Edrain). Against their ele(assuming they have one) it'll cost them a bit of energy, but nothing they can't afford to loose, esepcialy with them running Ether Prodigy. If you're using it on their Necromancer, most of the curses skills like Shadow of Fear that would really be spammable and harm you are just that, spammable, unless you focus all your ED on them, and inturupt once in awhile, they're going to be able to massively spam it, even with all that they'll get it off enough to be quite effective.

Guilt/Shame, ok, Shame is great. It can help against any ??/mo support class by preventing them from casting for a bit, or causing a critical spell to fail, and it's great against boonprots too, for the same reasons. As for Guilt, only works against spells cast on Foes. Meaning it'd only be useful on that guy shutting down your warrior, or that other mesmer, and only for one spell. Basicaly making Guilt not hurt them enough to merrit using.

Blackout, absolutly wonderful skill, but I don't see a real need for it here. You'll already have one player knocked down doing nothing while spiking, the monk being energy denied(and with enchant removal enchantment stripped, and can be shut down temporarily by Shame) Plus you have the flashbot that will mostly keep their warrior(if any) from building adrenaline.

Diversion is nice, but for this there are far better uses for your skill slot.

Lastly your fast cast is way up there, and will save you .22s off 9 fast casting, on your Burn or Surge. Guild Wiki has a nice chart if you look around, the ideal number for it is about 9.

Here are my Suggestions:

Rebalance your Attributes:

I usuauly use 9 fast casting, 14 Domination, and the rest in Insperation(10 or 11, I don't remember).

Use Shame instead of Guilt.

Replace Power Leak and Blackout with Energy Drain and Shatter Enchantment(which gives you some energy managment, and some way to aid in spike damage, while totaly frusturating the opposing monk).

As for Diversion, I'd go for Inspired Hex in its place. This will remove some of the burden of multiple hexes on the monk, and again give you some energy managment.

For the Monk and what I'd change:

Skill bar list looks pretty solid.

Attribute points should be 16 divine favor(as this is where you get your healing from) but only versus a non-spike, if you're against a spike swap down to a minor divine rune. Protection at 10. Insperation at 9(as you only get +1 energy from both inspired hex and mantra of recall for that 1 point, which could benefit protection more, IMO, although it doesn't really matter that much)

I think that should clean up the problem with not enough support, and make the mesmer more effecient, without loosing sight of what you were aiming for with the build, or drasticaly changing any of the charactars roles.

EDIT: Wow, that was alot longer than I expected.

Jornac · May 05, 2006, 04:06 AM // 04:06

tigers fury disables sprint.
Evis and execs take forever to charge.
You do not have mend ailment.
You have no healing skills.

If you can't take care of yourself, how do you intend to take care of others?

Zui · May 05, 2006, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Jornac, please only post on what you understand/comprehend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jornac

You do not have mend ailment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jornac

You have no healing skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blow Up Doll

Boon Prot Monk (Mo/Me)

Divine Favour - 11+2+1 (14)
Protection Prayers - 10+2 (12)
Inspiration Magic - 10

Reversal of Fortune
Guardian
Mend Ailment
Inspired Hex
Holy Veil
Mantra of Recall {E}
Contemplation of Purity
Divine Boon

Notice how he does have Mend Ailment. Although I assume you're meaning Mend Ailment on the warrior, which is extremely dumb.

Divine boon+the divine favor bonus is a 121 point heal at 16 Divine Favor, plus whatever damage that is prevented(or healed) from the protection spells. Although again I assume you mean healing on the Warrior, which is again extremely dumb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jornac

Evis and execs take forever to charge.

Under IAS it will take 8 seconds to charge them both, assuming no failures to strike and constant hits every 1 second. Without IAS it will take just less than 11 seconds(10.6 to be exact), assuming no failures to strike, and constant hits every 1.33 seconds. In the scheme of things, that's really not that long, especialy since after executing both of them at 16 axe mastery, just with the skills alone(not including actual weapon hit damage) 84 damage, and inflicted deep wound, since you can easily get hits over 100 on a target(with the skill+the weapon damage) with 60al, you'll have done around 200 damage+inflicted a deep wound. Wow, pretty good damage wouldn't you say? Find me one or two skills that do comparable damage(that can be maintained), and that are able to be both executed in under 2.66 seconds.

You do have one thing right though, Tiger's Fury really does disable sprint.

Jornac · May 06, 2006, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Jornac, please only post on what you understand/comprehend.

Notice how he does have Mend Ailment. Although I assume you're meaning Mend Ailment on the warrior, which is extremely dumb.

Divine boon+the divine favor bonus is a 121 point heal at 16 Divine Favor, plus whatever damage that is prevented(or healed) from the protection spells. Although again I assume you mean healing on the Warrior, which is again extremely dumb.

Under IAS it will take 8 seconds to charge them both, assuming no failures to strike and constant hits every 1 second. Without IAS it will take just less than 11 seconds(10.6 to be exact), assuming no failures to strike, and constant hits every 1.33 seconds. In the scheme of things, that's really not that long, especialy since after executing both of them at 16 axe mastery, just with the skills alone(not including actual weapon hit damage) 84 damage, and inflicted deep wound, since you can easily get hits over 100 on a target(with the skill+the weapon damage) with 60al, you'll have done around 200 damage+inflicted a deep wound. Wow, pretty good damage wouldn't you say? Find me one or two skills that do comparable damage(that can be maintained), and that are able to be both executed in under 2.66 seconds.

You do have one thing right though, Tiger's Fury really does disable sprint.

Before you can take care of anyone else, you must be able to take care of yourself.

If the monk dies, the warrior is screwed because it cannot heal or remove conditions.

A good team atleast is comprised of self sufficient people, who know how to deal damage, not calculate numbers.

---

I guess this thread is point in fact as to why this game has gone to hell so quickly.

Iskrah · May 06, 2006, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jornac

Before you can take care of anyone else, you must be able to take care of yourself.

If the monk dies, the warrior is screwed because it cannot heal or remove conditions.

A good team atleast is comprised of self sufficient people, who know how to deal damage, not calculate numbers.

Yeah and a good center in basketball needs to know how to steal passes around the perimeter? Has to be self sufficient and all that.
Hell, a good monk should be self-sufficient and able to dish major damage too.

It's a team game, so it requires specialization and organisation. Not 8 W/Mo with self heal.

NightOwl · May 06, 2006, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Biggest problem I see is lack of energy management on the mesmer. I'd dump Power Leak for Power Drain, and blackout for Drain Enchantment. As is, he has a ton of shutdown power...but once the energy pool is spent, he's only casting rarely (when energy permits) or after a long wait for energy to build up to near max for another splurge of wtfpwn. If the other side is able to manage through the first run, then they're home free for a while and able to operate fairly freely until the mesmer is able to do something again.

Also, perhaps adjusting the ele to have Mend Condition with a very modest investment into Prot (replacing Air Attunement) for the save on your monk in a pinch. Removing Weakness from the monk stops some types of knockdown, leaving some hammer wars fairly impotent, and the ele knockdown (stoning, isn't it) less effective as the weakness would need reapplication. Alternatively, going /me for some type of interrupt protection can be handy as well, also in place of Air Attunement.

Zui · May 06, 2006, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jornac

Before you can take care of anyone else, you must be able to take care of yourself.

Wrong. Maybe this is a good mindset for RA. This is a team game. That is why there is a team arenas. All upper forms of PvP play require you to have a team. Please understand in a team you have to depend on members of said team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jornac

If the monk dies, the warrior is screwed because it cannot heal or remove conditions.

This is what a "Ressurection Signet" is for. Notice how in my suggestions I also give the Elementalist the ability to remove conditions, and heal some. Wow, a team build for a team enviroment in a team game. By the way, I'm using the word team alot to try and impress upon you that you're not the self-sufficient solo whammo pwning everything and everyone 1 vs 4(or 8).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jornac

A good team atleast is comprised of self sufficient people, who know how to deal damage, not calculate numbers.

In random areans that's a great team. In actual games self-sufficiency to a point can be quite nice.

Doing the math on every build is extremely nice, sure it won't always be perfect due to the other team trying to throw a wrench in what you're doing, but it'll at least give you a general idea if what you're doing will cut it, or not cut it. Knowing how to execute your skills properly at the proper time, is also a great thing. Doing the math can help with this too, especialy in a balanced group, know your teammates skill recharges, so you can coordinate if need be.

Dealing damage is insanely simple. If you can't deal damage as a warrior please stop playing now.

Blow Up Doll · May 06, 2006, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Thankyou very much to everyone for the suggestions (especially Zui) - definatly some mods to be made - i have never actually played this build but when playing as the only monk, just to be blacked out is a big problem if the other team has much damage. The point of an axe warrior rather than hammer is for the fast attack and high damage along with the deep wound. knockdown are good but pointless if you can just kill the target anyway.
I think w/n + e/mo + mo/me are good to balence out the build a bit however i have played mesmer a lot in Ta - (i do use shame rather than guilt myself Zui) diversion really does help - if thier healer is a boon prot relying on RoF for his main healing skill - an extra minute (57 seconds acutally) of recharge on that is a major problem - i can't see any skill he can do without and itis resonably spammable - blackout is also nescessary as it is what makes the spike hard to stop - if you put on diversion after the blackout comes off then any healing that thier monk needs to do will means that he must disable one of his skills for over a minute or possibly lose another party member.
Finally - Jornac - i have seen your posts in a few other threads. Please. Stop posting on these forums for a while. Go and play guild wars. Enjoy it. Learn about the game then post when you actually have some idea what you are talking about.

JR · May 06, 2006, 12:06 PM // 12:06

- Draw Conditions instead of Air Attunement on the Air Ele. Assist with keeping your warrior free of blind or cripple, without making your monk have to spam condition removal.

- On the Warrior; go W/E instead of W/R. Take Shock instead of DChop, Frenzy instead of TF. Learn to love Frenzy. Learn to love Shock.

- Mesmer; Shame over Guilt and Drain Enchantment over Power Leak. Blackout is great, keep it. I would consider a fast-cast Remove Hex over Diversion, it allows you to remove a load of hexes over the span of a game.

- On the Monk why do you appear to be running two Major runes? That is totally inefficient.

Better Attrib set-up:

Divine Favor: 15 (11+3+1)
Protection Prayers: 11 (10+1)
Inspiration Magic: 10

Aside from that, good solid build.

And Jornac, any further idiocy will be deleted.

Blow Up Doll · May 06, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

thx again for help - suggestions noted

yesitsrob · May 06, 2006, 10:30 PM // 22:30

I agree with most of JR's suggestions - Shock and Frenzy is what I'd do

Maybe also find room for Convert on the emo, I find it helpful to be able to clean the warrior before he spikes

Liquidus · May 06, 2006, 11:11 PM // 23:11

It's true that Axe warriors have good damage and probably have a stronger spike than a hammer warrior. But using a kd warrior will prevent your target from running away or using some kind of defensive spell. With some assistance with the Ele or Mesmer or even sometimes alone, a hammer warrior should be able to kill a target. Just a thought, I also enjoy playing axe warriors too.

yesitsrob · May 07, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

in the case of expecting to face bad monks all the time, which i'd say in TA you largely do - hammer warriors are definitely a killer for them - since you can insta kill them a lot of the time with Devastating > crushing > irr > hammer bash.. since most monks don't know to Cop/prot/reversal - in the middle of a knockdown chain.

I run hammer often when doing random arenas quite often

__

Jornac, I don't know if you are being serious, or trying to have a laugh... but the roll of a warrior is not to heal... or keep himself alive, you have a monk for that

with probably very few exception, if I see a warrior take any other form of healing except healing signet you are probably running a horrible horrible build.

I personally like self sufficiency in team arenas, and with having one monk it's cruicial that you can protect him, since unprotected it's not hard to spike them out with them having nothing they can do about it. Whenever applicable I bring distortion on my mesmers, trolls on my rangers.. yada yada..

On my booner attributes I personally always go 14 divine (minor) 9 prot 10 inspiration.. I don't really run superiors anymore except at the start of the battle to get a better divine boon, which may well end up being copped off anyway

Liquidus · May 07, 2006, 12:52 AM // 00:52

yesitsrob, do you find much use for irresistable blow? At first glance it seems like it would be nice against monks but if they use guardian, one irresistable blow probably will not be enough to kill them. You might as well switch to someone else. I guess the extra damage would be nice for the chain if theres nothing else to put in there, but I can't find the skill slot for irr, and I find my energy already very tight. Heres the skill bar I use:

Frenzy, devastating, crushing, heavy blow, shock, bull's strike, rush, res sig

What do you think? I'm considering whether I should keep bull's strike because shock serves a simliar purpose.

Blow Up Doll · May 07, 2006, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Yes - hammer warriors can be nice but the target won't be going anywhere with the gale on the ele. The axe warrior is for the higher damage and the deep wound if the targets gets up after gale and tries to do something, he can just be shocked...

rii · May 07, 2006, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Irresistible Blow is fantastic. It hits for 100ish damage, making it an excellent skill as part of a spike, and has a short recharge, meaning it can be used not just as a spike skill, but also as (you mention) guardian hate. Guardian is an excellent skill against warrior pressure and putting people on the floor for 3s (with a recharge of 4s and a swing time of about 1s) makes using guardian sometimes horribly inefficient.

Personally I run:

Warrior/Necromancer

Hammer mastery: 12+3+1
Strength: 8+1
Tactics: 10+1

Backbreaker [e]
Crushing Blow
Irresistible Blow
Mighty Blow/ Plague Touch
Frenzy
Sprint
Healing Signet
Resurrection Signet

I find Bulls occasionally useful, but as you say energy becomes a problem. Iresistible usually covers enough non-spike KDS through their guardian to be a decent alternative. Shock seems totally unrequired... I don't need to KD them before a spike with shock, I have Backbreaker...it can be used defensively but there arent enough slots tbh. In TA/RA heavy blow is ok... after that it becomes a little dangerous, since the weakness variable can be stripped fairly fast.

yesitsrob · May 07, 2006, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

yesitsrob, do you find much use for irresistable blow? At first glance it seems like it would be nice against monks but if they use guardian, one irresistable blow probably will not be enough to kill them. You might as well switch to someone else. I guess the extra damage would be nice for the chain if theres nothing else to put in there, but I can't find the skill slot for irr, and I find my energy already very tight. Heres the skill bar I use:

Frenzy, devastating, crushing, heavy blow, shock, bull's strike, rush, res sig

What do you think? I'm considering whether I should keep bull's strike because shock serves a simliar purpose.

Yeah, I'm quite a big Irrisistable blow fan, I definitely use it as more of a spike measure than guardian hate, though it works fine for that too.

I _always_ build adrenaline on another target first, preferably another squishy so that the damage can't go unignored, once full. I spike with the knockdown chain mentioned above. In the situation when I'm in TA with the guild, with an orb in the spike too and whatever else we may have... the monk will probably die before he gets up again. I think Irrisistable adds a significant amount to the spike to take it simply for that...

That said, Bulls Strike is great, just in team arenas the way we tend to play is, when we attack the monk... then it's to kill the monk. Some opt for constant pressure on the monk, I like to spike em out

. My opinion on your build is that it's absolutely fine... I know at times when running hammer warrior I wish I could bulls people down at times

I personally wouldn't consider backbreaker in Team Arenas - or at least not without For Great Justice... since to the limit won't be too effective in TA, I think it would take a loong time to get the adrenaline for it - and one blackout can do a lot of damage to you

- though, if you do happen to get a backbreaker off, it's largely gg solo monk