Curse

Linkusmax · May 11, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

We were attacking on the Warriors Isle(I think) against Team Union and when VoD came along our runner had just hit the gate lock at the front of our base. Oddly the gate stayed open but you could not walk through it. Subsequently our Archers came round through the other gate (Which ended up being an advantage to us because their ganlk team was skirmishing our anti gank there while waiting to catapault our lord. and the archers came to assist us right by their front gate.

In the end we won when the Guild Lord Came out but it was a tad odd.

linh · May 11, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

That is the bug happen recently at VoD. I didn't know that it happened in Warrior's Isle too.
Team Union, I'm surprising where they went for a long time.

glenn_rolfe · May 11, 2006, 05:15 AM // 05:15

hmm, i can't remember the exact time (whatever the open and close time for the gate is) , but if you open your front gate about 17 secs before VoD it will will be shutting right on VoD time when it should opening. It then stays shut and your NPC's will go out the side.

It's a bug of sorts I guess, because there is no refresh at the gates, just like the walking through the closed gate situation.

I've seen teams use it as a gank cover at VoD.

Patrograd · May 11, 2006, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

I've seen teams use it as a gank cover at VoD.

Now that is *good* thinking

Wasteland Squidget · May 14, 2006, 05:59 AM // 05:59

We had the worst occurance of this bug tonight. We were beating the opponent flat-out - most of their NPCs dead, and most of them DPed out around 29:30 while they went to hide in their base. Unfortunately, both of the enemy gates were hit by this bug, and remained closed at VoD while graphically stuck in the open position.

Since they were both closed, the guild lord couldn't come out and the game wouldn't end. Their guild lord just sat near the gates, but wouldn't come out. He was out of LoS so the only damage we had on him was a water ele and catapult fire. The gates stayed closed and neither team could win.

Arenanet really needs to fix this. As an occasional bug its annoying, but as a stalling tactic it's just stupid and breaks GvG. In this case it was an accident, but any team could do the same thing if they set it up right and had proper planning.

Vanquisher · May 14, 2006, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Now that is *good* thinking

Or bug exploitation.

CAT · May 16, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Or bug exploitation.

Bug exploitation is different in rated matches when arenanet does not fix the big knowing its there... IMO use it to your advantage and expect other teams to use it. There is a certain level of honesty in not using glitches but when arenanet puts them in the game and other guilds use them while arenanet doesnt fix them, there is really nothing you can do.

Patrograd · May 16, 2006, 11:41 AM // 11:41

It is an interesting question.

For me, the responsibility to fix bugs lies with the game producer, and the responsibility for winning games in competitive play lies with the player. It is up to the game producer to make the game as fair as possible so that the competitive play has real meaning. What one person calls a bug, another calls a feature. What one person calls an overpowered skill, another exploits to the full. No-one is right, no-one is wrong, IMO Until such time as the bug gets fixed, or the skill gets balanced, it is a part of the game.

JR · May 16, 2006, 12:06 PM // 12:06

I have thought a lot about this issue over the past few days, and have listened to arguments from respected players about it. The way I see it, there are two good arguments:

1) Anet has not actually said that it is a offense to use the bug. Untill they do, it is still legit to use it. Why not, when teams you play may well be using it too? Play to win.

2) It's over the line. Click-to-pass was a bug that needed fixing, but not game breaking like this. It allows hardcore griefing, and can make the difference between a win and a loss.

I can see the merit in both points, but am leaning more towards the second. The problem is, Anet can't really outlaw the use of the bug. It has already been demonstrated by Char that it is quite easy to accidentaly trigger it, and you can't really justify disqualifying a guild from the tournament for doing something by accident. There is also the case where it is approaching VoD and you need to run a flag, repair kit, or for whatever reason need to get into or out of your base, but can't because you are afraid you will trigger it.

A lot of people bring Sirlin's 'Playing to Win' articles* in as a means of justifying the use of the bug; "If you don't play to win, you are a scrub". However they generally don't really have any idea what he was talking about, and don't actually bother trying to understand the message. This quote from Sirlin in particular sticks out to me, on this issue:

Quote:

"These things, though technically useful to those trying to win, are outside the path of continuous self-improvement that I’m talking about. You should use any *tournament legal* means to win."

You play at your best, or 'play to win' because it is what improves you as a player. Abusing a bug or hack is not going to improve your play. Here is another longer passege from Sirlin's part 2, about what I would consider a fairly simmilar situation:

Quote:

"Speaking of banning, forgive my tangent into the world of Street Fighter. In the 10 year history of the 30 different versions of the game, there has only been one banning issue which had any serious debate: the issue of “roll canceling” in Capcom vs. SNK 2 (CvS2). So-called “roll canceling” is a bug-exploit that allows a player to cancel a ground roll within the first 5/60ths of a second into any special or super move, retaining the invulnerability of roll during the special or super. Let’s try that again. Roll canceling is a bug requiring difficult timing that allows a player to have many invulnerable moves that the game designers never intended.

Some people claimed that players would never master roll canceling. That was just foolish, so I’ll pretend I never heard that. Players will master anything that will help them win. Some players claimed that if you can beat person A, but not person B, and both A and B learn to roll cancel, that you will still beat A but not B. Others believed that even if the game ended up being all about roll canceling vs. roll canceling, that there would still be a game. Others, including myself, believed that roll canceling would ruin the game, making it degenerately unplayable. The actual results are amusing.

August 9-11, 2002, we held the largest fighting game tournament ever in the United States. 20 players from Japan attended and CvS2 was one of the 3 primary tournament games. Most American players did not learn to roll cancel (including myself, I did not take the game seriously). Most Japanese players did. The 7th and 8th place finishers were from the US; the top 6 finishers were all Japanese. The player who won the tournament, Tokido of Japan, played Blanka and Honda(!?), using nothing but roll cancelled invulnerable versions of their self-projectile moves. This tactic absolutely destroyed the #1 US player (who even used roll canceling himself!), and the other Japanese finalist, who was clearly the better player. The “better player” just never got a chance to actually do anything during entire the set of games since the roll cancelled Blanka ball seemed unbeatable.

Should roll canceling be banned? I’m pretty sure it meets the standard of “warranted” since I’m satisfied that under serious tournament conditions, the game completely fell apart into a joke. Unfortunately, the ban would be practically unenforceable, since roll cancelled moves are exceedingly hard to actually detect or prove. I should note that many top players of the game believe that the tactic creates a different, but non-degenerate game, so it should not be banned."

Again a bug that is hard to prove the abuse of, that is potentially game breaking. 'Roll Cancelling' is obviously the more serioius of the two, but then there is the issue of where to draw the line. Basicly there really is no solution to either, other than for the developers to just sort it out it swiftly. They can't outlaw it because of the nature of the bug, and if it isn't outlawed, why shouldn't we use it?

The quote also cites the example of a better player being beaten by a lesser player, due to the bug, which then leads on to two possible responses: 'That's ridiculous, anything that allows lesser players to win through abuse of the game is clearly completely broken.' Or the alternate response of; 'Was he actually the better player? Surely the better player would be the one who learnt how to 'roll cancel'?'

I can see the reasons for justifying it's use, and would not be shocked to see any guild using it. However personally I will not use it, and I would sincerely hope other guilds have the same attitude towards it. Whatever your standing on the issue, I'm sure we can all agree that Anet needs to hurry the hell up and fix it.

And excuse me for harping on about Sirlin. I don't think he is the gaming god that some people consider him as, but the articles are interesting and poiniant.

/ramble.

(*http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...ToWinPart1.htm
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...ToWinPart2.htm
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...ToWinPart3.htm)

Patrograd · May 17, 2006, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I can see the reasons for justifying it's use, and would not be shocked to see any guild using it. However personally I will not use it, and I would sincerely hope other guilds have the same attitude towards it. Whatever your standing on the issue, I'm sure we can all agree that Anet needs to hurry the hell up and fix it.

agreed in full

SaintGreg · May 17, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

I would think the following passage from the "play to win" essay describes it more poignantly:

Quote:

But there is a limit. There is a point when the bug becomes too much. In tournaments, bugs that turn the game off, or freeze it indefinitely, or remove one of the characters from the playfield permanently are banned. Bugs so extreme that they stop gameplay are considered unfair even by non-scrubs. As are techniques that can only be performed on, say, the one player side of the game. There are a few esoteric tricks in various fighting games that are side dependant—that can’t be performed on the 2nd player side, for example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

He already showed that it is possible to stall a game indefinitely because if both doors are bugged there is absolutely no way in heaven or on earth to open either one. You can't kill the other team if you can't attack them. This is the type of bug that you just don't want to use on purpose, because it is possible to just shut the game down.

Our situation is a little different because unlike street fighter, guild wars is constantly updaded. ANet does have the option to fix this bug, hopefully they get around to it.

Zui · May 17, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Fixed a bug that occasionally caused guild battle gates to remain closed even after "Victory or Death" had begun.

Source: http://www.guildwars.com/support/gameupdates/

Thankfuly, no more bug.

JR · May 18, 2006, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Source: http://www.guildwars.com/support/gameupdates/

Thankfuly, no more bug.

There are however now reports of players getting stuck in gates as they close...

Patrograd · May 18, 2006, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

There are however now reports of players getting stuck in gates as they close...

happened to us last night, one of our guys got stuck in the gates as they shut. luckily for him, the enemy obligingly stayed near enough for him to kill a few before they even more obligingly killed him allowing him to rez in base

makes you wonder sometimes