Curse

DieInBasra · May 16, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

http://gwshack.us/a1a5c

Nothing revolutionary, here. Three melee characters with a Evis-Exe, Dev-Crush,Golden-Twisting spike. The Mesmer keeps them hex light and takes care of rits and enchants, looks out for a wards to intterupt(don't use return on monks), the water snares and keeps them condition free. Our runner isn't very strong, so the assassin is used to harass the enemy runner when he can. The fire should be able to rock through VoD and if we push them off the stand it can help out alot vs turteling. Burning speed+Extinguish for an expensive but good speed buff.

Any advise? Think I should scrape the whole fire runner idea? Too little hex removal, even with Expel? Feedback would be nice.

New Version
http://gwshack.us/98548

Deep Wounds stayed due to the Assassin having to be able to act on his own, and it itsn't a bad idea to have a backup on the hammer
Rush to sprint on the axe
Bulls Strike stayed on the hammer for more snares
Added Burn and Cry, kept diversion for spike assist
Kept WvM due to lack of war hate, swiched Aegis and HP. Might have all my war hate a bit to centered.
Dropped the fire runner. Switched to a kinda unusual Air.
Kept monks relitivly the same dispite JR's advise, for various personal and player skill issues.

Anything else?

TheOneMephisto · May 16, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Pretty nice build, I have a few suggestions though...

Is it really neccesary to have 3 deep wounds? You could probably switch out twisting fangs to nine tails strike for more damage. Also, for the hammer warrior I would suggest forceful blow over mighty blow, since you're sticking weakness on them either way. Not understand why you are using dash on the assassin, stick in dark escape or a res sig there. Unnatural signet? You don't really need spirit hate, just go up and hit them. And it is pretty useless against anything other than spirits. Find a better use for that spot, perhaps cry of frustration or another interrupt? I don't like your healer monk, I would suggest going for a GoH or infuser boonprot. Is ward against melee really worth putting points in earth? Might want to reevaluate that slot.

JR · May 16, 2006, 10:03 PM // 22:03

All together, nice solid build. Still a few tweaks that I would administer though.

I would personally run sprint on the Axe guy, instead of Rush. While rush is nice, it is not an on demand speed buff, and that can give you problems when you want to shuttle flags or catch a gank split. I would also be tempted to run Shock over Distracting Blow, as it gives you the ability to interrupt long casts and as a secondary snare.

Hammer warrior looks solid. As does the Assassin, although I would think about swapping out Dash for Dark Escape. I am trying to find a way to fit a Resurrection Signet on him aswell, but there just isn't room. Having three Res Sigs at the stand may hurt you, I would even consider dropping Dash for that instead.

Mesmer seems ok, just a bit different to what I would usually run. Here's an example:

Dominate
Mesmer/Monk

Fast Casting: 9 (8+1)
Domination Magic: 15 (11+4)
Inspiration Magic: 9 (8+1)
Illusion Magic: 8 (7+1)
Healing Prayers: 6

- Expel Hexes [Elite] (Mesmer other)
- Shatter Enchantment (Domination Magic)
- Blackout (Domination Magic)
- Energy Burn (Domination Magic)
- Cry of Frustration (Domination Magic)
- Distortion (Illusion Magic)
- Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)
- Resurrection Chant (Healing Prayers)

Unnatural Signet is too conditionally usefull to take, in my opinion. In a metagame full of spirits it would be awesome, but it really isn't that I have seen. It doesn't take Warriors long to drop spirits anyway. Simply not a huge fan of Power Return.

Blackout is just too usefull. It is great offensively on Monks, or defensively on spikers or Warriors trying to build adren. I probably wouldn't take a Dom mesmer without it. Shatter and Burn are straight up offense skills, giving the Mesmer a contribution to spikes. Cry is pretty leet. Like Unnatural Signet it is conditionally usefull, however it is so usefull that it can make a huge difference to a game. Distortion is a given, as your Hard Resser this guy will be taking a lot of focus fire off good teams.

The Ele is interesting, Water/Earth is a combination I haven't really seen much of. Normally I would like a utility character like this to also be able to contribute to a spike aswell, but this guy wouldn't be able to (besides snaring). However I'm not saying it is bad, just something I am not entirely comfortable with.

Burning Speed runner is another interesting idea, I would personally think that the duration of Burning Speed is too short to really make it worthwhile though. I realise how it would interact with extinguish, I just don't think it is really worth the fuss. Which begs the question; how stong is the Fire runner? Whilst I appreciate the use he would have in VoD type situations, is that worth running with a bit of a gimp for the rest of the game? I would probably think not, and go with a standard Air runner. I think it is important that runners have good solo capabilities, your fire runner may well struggle.

Something like this:

Flashbot
Elementalist/Monk

Energy Storage: 10 (9+1)
Air Magic: 14 (12+2)
Healing Prayers: 9

- Ether Prodigy [Elite] (Energy Storage)
- Lightning Orb (Air Magic)
- Blinding Flash (Air Magic)
- Gale (Air Magic)
- Windborne Speed (Air Magic)
- Heal Party (Healing Prayers)
- Healing Breeze (Healing Prayers)
- Resurrection Signet ()

Now the Monks. I will warn you that there will probably be a certain amount of personal opinion in this bit, as I primarily play monk. The Word Monk is ok, no real complaints there. Let me post up the build I normally use just to see if you prefer it though:

(Assuming you have an E/Mo with heal party, which you do)
Word Heal
Monk/Mesmer

Divine Favor: 9 (8+1)
Healing Prayers: 13 (11+2)
Inspiration Magic: 9
Illusion Magic: 8

- Word of Healing [Elite] (Healing Prayers)
- Orison of Healing (Healing Prayers)
- Infuse Health (Healing Prayers)
- Healing Touch (Healing Prayers)
- Mend Ailment (Protection Prayers)
- Distortion (Illusion Magic)
- Inspired Hex (Inspiration Magic)
- Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)

Word Healers are great, but their downfall is that they don't have the survivablity of a Boon Prot. Distortion helps this a hell of a lot. It may seem counter-productive to your energy, but if you learn to use against actual adren spikes with decent kiting it works wonders. You don't take too many hits because you avoid KD snares like Bull's Strike of hammer KD's, and you break their adren chains. You also have both Inspired Hex and Drain Enchantment to help fuel yourself.

The boon prot again is pretty solid, but I would say that running Inspired Hex instead of Drain Enchantment was fine on energy terms. You get enough energy to run, and another hex removal. You also aren't then competing with the Mesmer and the Word Monk for enchantments to drain. Here is the Boon Prot I run at the moment:

Boon Prot
Monk/Mesmer

Divine Favor: 16 (12+4)
Protection Prayers: 10 (9+1)
Domination Magic: 3
Inspiration Magic: 9

- Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
- Guardian (Protection Prayers)
- Protective Spirit (Protection Prayers)
- Mend Ailment (Protection Prayers)
- Inspired Hex (Inspiration Magic)
- Energy Drain [Elite] (Inspiration Magic)
- Divine Boon (Divine Favor)
- Hex Breaker (Domination Magic)

Hex Breaker will probably be the first thing that stands out to you here, as it is rather uncommon. Let me explain why I like it so much. It gives you basicly a 5 energy self hex removal that negates any bad effects of the hex, and it allows you to precast it before combat for a reduced recharge (which is only 15 seconds anyway. It also doesn't require much spec to make it decent; at 3 dom it is already lasting 30 seconds. It only being a self hex removal may make some people think twice, but it is really taking the place of CoP. Is Hex Breaker stronger than CoP? I think so, at least on an Edrain Boon Prot. This guy is also running Ailment, not Condition. This is because I think it is crucial for builds to have mid-line off-monk Draw Conditions if you plan to run Warriors these days. At which point Mend Ailment becomes far more viable, and makes Hex Breaker look even more appealing than CoP.

Just my personal nit-picks, all round ok build though.

rii · May 17, 2006, 09:43 AM // 09:43

^^^
Personally i would drop energy burn for diversion on the mesmer, aside from that its solid. Diversion does a lot of work over the course of a battle, and I suppose it can be used to support spikes if you want. In terms of damage I dont feel any more is needed here, especially if they switch to an air runner, who can contribute to spikes occasionally.

The hammer warrior could drop bulls strike for irresistible blow... the axe already has it, and irresistible is one of the big +'s of hammer. Nice guardian hate.

Power return has the potential to be good... you can see what they wanted the skill to do. If it had a 5s cooldown that would be much more fitting. As it is, I agree CoF gets the edge.

I quite like the fire runner, but i would drop aegis for another heal party, and meteor for either healing breeze or incendiary bonds. An alternative is to go air/fire, then go:

Elmo fire_air_healing

Elementalist/Monk
Level: 20

Energy Storage: 11 (10+1)
Fire Magic: 13 (9+4)
Air Magic: 10 (9+1)
Healing Prayers: 8

Ether Prodigy [Elite] (Energy Storage)
Lose all Enchantments. For 16 seconds, you gain Energy regeneration of 6. When Ether Prodigy ends, you take 2 damage for each point of Energy you have. This Spell causes Exhaustion.
Energy:5 Cast:1 Recharge:5

Fireball (Fire Magic)
Target foe and all adjancent foes are struck for 98 fire damage.
Energy:10 Cast:2 Recharge:7

Rodgort's Invocation (Fire Magic)
Target foe and alla nearby foes are struck for 106 fire damage and are set on fire for 3 seconds.
Energy:25 Cast:3 Recharge:15

Blinding Flash (Air Magic)
Target foe is Blinded for 8 seconds.
Energy:15 Cast:0.75 Recharge:4

Windborne Speed (Air Magic)
For 9 seconds, target ally moves 33% faster.
Energy:10 Cast:1 Recharge:5

Healing Breeze (Healing Prayers)
For 10 seconds, target ally gains +6 Health regeneration.
Energy:10 Cast:1 Recharge:2

Heal Party (Healing Prayers)
Heal entire party for 50 points.
Energy:15 Cast:2 Recharge:2

Resurrection Signet ()
Resurrect target party member. That party member is returned to life with 100% Health and 25% Energy. You may use this Signet only once per mission.
Energy:0 Cast:3 Recharge:0

That gives you the aoe... that might be good VoD+dp (something to try), and a more secure running system. Also provides utility. You could go burning speed, since healing breeze can be used to negate the self-harming.

The monks are the monks choice really. I prefer cop over hex breaker, since it *can* be more efficient with the condition removal. It heals as well. rawr -.-

JR · May 17, 2006, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Personally i would drop energy burn for diversion on the mesmer, aside from that its solid. Diversion does a lot of work over the course of a battle, and I suppose it can be used to support spikes if you want. In terms of damage I dont feel any more is needed here, especially if they switch to an air runner, who can contribute to spikes occasionally.

I have actually been beginning to think that Diversion is a bit overrated recently. Having faced even decent guilds running it, it has never been THAT much of an issue. 90% of the time a good player just wont cast through it. So you don't cast for a few seconds, not really that much disruption.

If you are very well coordinated, and throwing Diversions on Monks when you spike, it could become an issue. I would say there are more pressing things for that Mesmer to be doing though, like actually contributing to the spike.

sir lockt · May 17, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

As posted above I would introduce some hex removers, besides the expel hexes on the mesmer, you are taking a big gamble with having only hex removal on the mesmer... The suggestons of JR of i-hex on monks is a nice one.

Question to JR: you introduce hex-breaker on one of your proposed monks. I find only limited use for it, what is your xp with it? I mean it required some points in domination.. although you keep it low, which has the disadvantage, that it should be cost shortly before the battle starts, so making the other monk the primary hex target (if the enemy mesmers are watching) or just trigger a coverhex, to be broken. One of my guildies proposed the use of hex-breaker before after I did some testing, although not on a proper GvG lvl. I was wondering how enemy hexers react on the skill and how you use it exactly? (I see you predicted it would show-up, I am just wondering about some of your reasons to use it, sorry if its a topic hijack)

JR · May 17, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir lockt

Question to JR: you introduce hex-breaker on one of your proposed monks. I find only limited use for it, what is your xp with it? I mean it required some points in domination.. although you keep it low, which has the disadvantage, that it should be cost shortly before the battle starts, so making the other monk the primary hex target (if the enemy mesmers are watching) or just trigger a coverhex, to be broken. One of my guildies proposed the use of hex-breaker before after I did some testing, although not on a proper GvG lvl. I was wondering how enemy hexers react on the skill and how you use it exactly? (I see you predicted it would show-up, I am just wondering about some of your reasons to use it, sorry if its a topic hijack)

I have been using it in GvG since Factions came out, occasionally switching that slot out for other skills but generally coming back to Breaker.

Hex Breaker becomes slightly weaker against hex heavy teams,as they can afford to throw away a hex to take down your Breaker. However against teams with a Diversion Mesmer, or those that use Shadow Shroud, it really shines. They can't see whether you have Hex Breaker up or not without actively watching you, so they tend to just NOT hex you after the first few attempts. Teams that rely on Shadow Shroud to pull off spikes will have problems taking you down, and the Mesmer is limited to the one target to put Diversion on.

Were I to run a Word monk, I would probably try and find space for Hex Breaker aswell. That character does suffer from a lack of non-key slots though.

Three points in Domination gives you a solid 30 second Breaker, which is enough. You can go for more, but it really isn't neccasary. It also has a 15 second recharge, meaning that every time hex breaker is left up for 15 seconds you can break one hex and put it straight back up again to break a second.

Diversion for example has a recycle of 13 seconds, that leaves a 2 second window for him to recast it assuming you had only just put Hex Breaker up when the first landed, which is unlikely. If they have other hexes being used on you aswell, it does mean something will get through though. As I said before; it is much stronger against teams with a few key hexes, which seems to be fairly common these days.

DieInBasra · May 17, 2006, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Edited it. Thoughts?

JR · May 18, 2006, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Looking solid to me.

rii · May 18, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I have actually been beginning to think that Diversion is a bit overrated recently. Having faced even decent guilds running it, it has never been THAT much of an issue. 90% of the time a good player just wont cast through it. So you don't cast for a few seconds, not really that much disruption.

If you are very well coordinated, and throwing Diversions on Monks when you spike, it could become an issue. I would say there are more pressing things for that Mesmer to be doing though, like actually contributing to the spike.

You concede that spiking with it is good.. I would argue that with a 6s duration and some kind of FC level, some kind of contribution is still managable. What more, contributing to the spike is not always required from a mesmer, especially when there is diversion on the target -.-

In battle, its use is predominantly spike assist. As you said, whats the point of spamming it? However, mantra of recovery mesmers make a meal of it, and even if all that happens is they *dont* cast for 6s, thats pretty fine with me. I also cant count the amount of total lucked diversions I've both hit and been hit by... when the spell/skill your using is 99.9999% done, and theres jack you can do about it, and diversion comes up for about a microsecond, before you see one darkened skill -.-
Diversion on targets that have nothing to do is of course stupid. Spike assist and heavy-casting off targets are where I feel it earns its slot.

JR · May 18, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

You concede that spiking with it is good.. I would argue that with a 6s duration and some kind of FC level, some kind of contribution is still managable. What more, contributing to the spike is not always required from a mesmer, especially when there is diversion on the target -.-

In battle, its use is predominantly spike assist. As you said, whats the point of spamming it? However, mantra of recovery mesmers make a meal of it, and even if all that happens is they *dont* cast for 6s, thats pretty fine with me. I also cant count the amount of total lucked diversions I've both hit and been hit by... when the spell/skill your using is 99.9999% done, and theres jack you can do about it, and diversion comes up for about a microsecond, before you see one darkened skill -.-
Diversion on targets that have nothing to do is of course stupid. Spike assist and heavy-casting off targets are where I feel it earns its slot.

Point noted and respected. I would still much rather have my mesmer Draining/Shattering/Burning/Blackouting on spike though.

sir lockt · May 18, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

As primary playing monk diversion isnt a big deal for me: CoP

Of course your point on lucky hits is a good one. Diversion htis me in 10% of the time when I am not aware of it, and so it hits a skill. But even then, I think my effectiveness didnt dropped, it becomes a problem when 2 skills are hit by it...

Still you have a point that a good used diversion is nice, but I would not focus on a monk (so to assist spike), I would use it to stop damage: slow casting skills can be diverted by putting it in DURING cast... so its an interupt OR a 60 sec block...

If you wanna support a spike I would run some of the suggestions of JR and you can think of some more...

DieInBasra · May 18, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

As primary playing monk diversion isnt a big deal for me: CoP

Diversion effects all skills, so CoP will just get diversioned and you'll be screwed for 50 seconds.

Byron · May 19, 2006, 06:26 AM // 06:26

I really like this build - seeing bull's strike and distracting blow on the axe warrior made me happy. Overall, as well, I think its pretty solid - I have no major gripes. A few things I noticed that you might want to consider:

The monks don't have much splitting capability. No condition self-removal on the infuser could be a big problem if you have to split - and mend condition could get redundant fast with a draw conditions guy around. I'd suggest mend ailment.

The infuser has WoH, heal other, and orison; I don't think it's necessary for to have both WoH and heal other, personally. I would consider replacing heal other with a support heal (such as heal party) or more e-management.

I think the boon could get very stressed running prot spirit and guardian while having no CoP, but at the same time, I don't know what to do about it.

The axe warrior has sprint, and I couldn't figure out why. Chasing flag runners maybe?

Gale doesn't seem necessary on the flag runner - the ice ele can do all the snaring, i think. Just as well, it makes two exhausting skills on one bar. In its place, maybe a lightning strike for more power, maybe a heal other to help the monks, or a healing breeze to keep alive during runs.

sir lockt · May 19, 2006, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

Diversion effects all skills, so CoP will just get diversioned and you'll be screwed for 50 seconds.

True... ignore my comment on that... just was confused with backfire.

DieInBasra · May 19, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

The monks don't have much splitting capability. No condition self-removal on the infuser could be a big problem if you have to split - and mend condition could get redundant fast with a draw conditions guy around. I'd suggest mend ailment.

As long as the draw sticks with the infuse it's fine. Mend on him is for the draw guy as well as faster removal of conditions if the boon get's blackout out or the draw guy dies, but you do have a point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

The axe warrior has sprint, and I couldn't figure out why. Chasing flag runners maybe?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I would personally run sprint on the Axe guy, instead of Rush. While rush is nice, it is not an on demand speed buff, and that can give you problems when you want to shuttle flags or catch a gank split.

Quote:

I don't think it's necessary for to have both WoH and heal other, personally.

I do. When you need two back-to-back big heals, or you need a big heal on someone who's no quite 50 and has just kited that last hit, ect. I think it's good to have two power skills.

Quote:

Gale doesn't seem necessary on the flag runner - the ice ele can do all the snaring, i think. Just as well, it makes two exhausting skills on one bar. In its place, maybe a lightning strike for more power, maybe a heal other to help the monks, or a healing breeze to keep alive during runs.

A three second unconditional snare/interupt I'm already speced into is to much to pass up. It's not like it's spammed, either.

Quote:

I think the boon could get very stressed running prot spirit and guardian while having no CoP, but at the same time, I don't know what to do about it.

I have a midline draw, another conditon removal on the healer, am not running MoR and have an expel hexes mesmer, and you're saying I need CoP?

rii · May 20, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

On the topic of gale, I rarely use it in battle (I rarely use it at all). Most of the time I play runner, and usually it's the most used skill on the bar in between fights. When a skirmish breaks down and everyone starts running, it gets spammed on the most valuable target rushing back. When they try to get a flag in the hope of a cap, it gets spammed hard. When some warrior trys a gank and you run back with not much to do, it gets spammed whilst the rest of your team come and kick their head in (or for the NPC's to ff on them a bit). At these times prodigy isnt on, so there isn't any conflict with stacking exhaustion.

It does get spammed, just rarely in the big fights.