Curse

dansamy · May 11, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18

I really like blessed light, but where on earth is your booner going to get his energy now? I don't think it's a good idea to outsource your monks' energy management(rit/bip), but if you took out their elite e-management, you'd have to outsource. Channeling is not good for GvG positioning and inspired hex alone won't feed the energy monster that a boon prot can be, even if you can have 2 copies of it now. I do like the idea of GoH, since it's the only "heal" on your bar, the drawback of it won't really screw up your spammables.

Ensign · May 11, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

If you're using Blessed Light you're not a booner anymore. You're a Blessed Light monk. You drop the boon and find other efficient ways to keep people alive.

That is an option after all.

Peace,
-CxE

|AW|Tian · May 11, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shifty Five Monk

Also, only a 1/4 casting time and a 5 second recharge! Faster recharge then pretty much any other hex removal.

I haven't capped it yet, but guildwiki and what I've seen in observer mode tells me this is 1 second casting time and 7 second recharge.

sir lockt · May 12, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Agree with ensign: Word of Light is a good skill, but it would result in an entire other build. And without relying on enchants you dont have to worry about shadows shroud... So you can just take your old WoH-build out of the closet.

I get the feeling shadows shroud is especially introduced to counter boon prots, I really like that way of balancing: not by a "nerfing" skills, but by adding counters...

Counters I tested are:
GoH boon prot (JR gives a set-up somewhere below)
Replace Veil by a non-elite hex removal (besides the shatter hex on a mesmer), good candidate is smite hex.
and the simplest of all: Kiting

Most important is the calling of the hex of the target. In my experience GoH can hit and prevent the first part of the spike, while the hex removers hit. PS/spirit bond right after it...and we live on and on...

Also kiting works very nice: just run like hell away from the team... It prevents in my case several times the entire spike to drop properly...

|AW|Tian · May 12, 2006, 08:58 AM // 08:58

We've been using shroud lately, and the teams that have used it against us typically don't give you the option of kiting. Having a W/A shadowstep next to you as Shroud lands followed by either a Shock War or an Ele putting your butt on the ground can be hard to kite against. In our games it comes down to the other monk doing all he can to heal around shroud/remove shroud until the monk can get up, the support casters blinding warriors or interrupting the enemy supporters, and basically the team working like they would to break up any other spike.

There is no reason a shroud should be able to stay up on a monk for more than a few seconds, especially after you figure out it is coming.

glenn_rolfe · May 14, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

goes to show the unworthy's in the tombs pre-fight had it right all the time - half heal/half prot monk mix is the way to go...............

STINGER · May 16, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

goes to show the unworthy's in the tombs pre-fight had it right all the time - half heal/half prot monk mix is the way to go...............

Heal/Prot builds IMO have always been the best all around builds. Any dedicated build is open for counters more than a diverse build. I have also always hated ever building with relying on enchants as many tims they can be negated, or can simply fuel the damage if they brought shatters.

Patrograd · May 17, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

We always used to run hybrid prot/heal monks back before Christmas.

I think my opinion is that a pure healer teamed with a pure prot is a stronger mix than two hybrids, possibly much, much stronger. it takes more skill and more co-ordination between the two of them (ideally they should play together ALOT) but the synergy between healing and prot is a natural one assuming your two monks understand and appreciate both their role and the role of the other monk.

We have never run two boons, although I can see why you would (a boon is a hybrid without the need for speccing into healing). Can you run a two monk backline without a boon (ie a healing Light heal monk and a blessed Light prot monk)? My gut instinct would be that such a setup would lack the healing power you need and lack the ability to split effectively, but I'm happy to stand corrected if anyone has tried and succeeded. My opinion currently is that one pure healer (either WOH or healing Light depending on the build) and a boon prot with healing support from an e/mo or n/mo is the way to go, and should provide a fairly effective counter to shadow shroud.

Linkusmax · May 17, 2006, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Run a Boon Prot and this heal monk?
Monk/Warrior:
Healing Prayers (16)
Divine Favor (12),
Blessed Light [E],
Healing Touch,
Heal Other/Healing Seed
Infuse Health,
Orison of Healing,
Holy Veil
Balanced Stance,
Heal Party/Whatever you like can go here really HP's from the Energizing Wind build this was sourced from.

They gonna spike your healer? No probs You have Balanced Stance to stop from fallling on your ass, not too mention it screws assasins out of alot of their damage. Additionally you have Infuse Health to stop other spikes pwning you in the face.

CAT · May 17, 2006, 10:53 AM // 10:53

IMO unless shadow shroud is changed in some way its really going to change meta. The way people are playing shadow shroud is abuse imo. SNA was playing a build the other night with a blackout and a shadow shroud. All they had was 5 defensive chars and every 30 seconds they would shadow shroud one monk, blackout the other, and then lay on some half-ass 4 second spike that we couldnt do anything about.

To the poster above, that build wont even come close to working in gvg.. you'd run out of energy in less then a minute and you couldnt do anything with a mesmer on you

Linkusmax · May 17, 2006, 11:20 AM // 11:20

I can't honestly tell you you'rte wrong since I haven't played it myself, but it definatly works with Energizing Winds Up.

Im not much of a monk player to be honest so it quite possibly could be horrible without enegrizing winds up. Anyway you could get a WoH monk and switch Blessed Light with WoH for a similar result.

Kabale · May 17, 2006, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAT

IMO unless shadow shroud is changed in some way its really going to change meta. The way people are playing shadow shroud is abuse imo. SNA was playing a build the other night with a blackout and a shadow shroud. All they had was 5 defensive chars and every 30 seconds they would shadow shroud one monk, blackout the other, and then lay on some half-ass 4 second spike that we couldnt do anything about.

To the poster above, that build wont even come close to working in gvg.. you'd run out of energy in less then a minute and you couldnt do anything with a mesmer on you

And how is this abuse??

They're just aware of the new metagame. Blackout on that healer you just decided to put in to counter shadow shroud.??
But it's not like it's unstoppable. If you're aware of what's going on you should be able to see it coming (mesmer running towards you?).

Patrograd · May 17, 2006, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Currently our healer runs

Monk/Mesmer
Level: 20

Divine Favor: 11 (10+1)
Healing Prayers: 15 (11+4)
Protection Prayers: 5 (4+1)
Inspiration Magic: 9

Healing Light [Elite] (Healing Prayers)
Mend Ailment (Protection Prayers)
Heal Other (Healing Prayers)
Infuse Health (Healing Prayers)
Healing Touch (Healing Prayers)
Power Drain (Inspiration Magic)
Inspired Hex (Inspiration Magic)
Revealed Hex (Inspiration Magic)

worth noting though that this is a very experimental build. he has all the hex removals partly for energy but partly to counter shadow shroud. if we know the other team has shadow shroud we will try and save one of the hex removals for that. if you're not running party wide enchants it is probably worth taking out healing Light and putting in Word. We are toying with the idea of putting channeling in here too, as a +2 from channeling will make the healing light free (apart from the channeling cost of course). not too sure how that would work though. Also worth noting that as healing light is also a self heal healing touch might be redundant

Xasew · May 17, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAT

IMO unless shadow shroud is changed in some way its really going to change meta. The way people are playing shadow shroud is abuse imo. SNA was playing a build the other night with a blackout and a shadow shroud. All they had was 5 defensive chars and every 30 seconds they would shadow shroud one monk, blackout the other, and then lay on some half-ass 4 second spike that we couldnt do anything about.

Stick a hex removal on a non-primary Monk? Use CoP? Have Heal Other on an E/Mo? Blind the Warriors when you hear that Shroud is on someone? Kite the Mesmer with Blackout? Use Diversion on him when he comes in? Gale one of the spikers? Blackout them when they Blackout you? And the list goes on...
Shroud isn't something easy to deal with, but it's hardly abuse. A build that spikes every 30 seconds doesn't seem effective to me...

JR · May 17, 2006, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAT

IMO unless shadow shroud is changed in some way its really going to change meta. The way people are playing shadow shroud is abuse imo. SNA was playing a build the other night with a blackout and a shadow shroud. All they had was 5 defensive chars and every 30 seconds they would shadow shroud one monk, blackout the other, and then lay on some half-ass 4 second spike that we couldnt do anything about.

To the poster above, that build wont even come close to working in gvg.. you'd run out of energy in less then a minute and you couldnt do anything with a mesmer on you

We have played against decent guilds using Shadow Shroud and Death's Charge Blackout Mesmers without too much issue. This was also with straight dual Boon Prots, who's only heal through Shroud was Mend Condition and Signet of Devotion.

It's all about communication and reaction. As soon as Shadow Shroud drops on you, call it and run like a bitch untill it is removed (by yourself or someone else). Same goes for Blackout, as soon as one monk calls on vent that they have been Blacked out, the other should be pre-kiting away.

Focus on spiking out the Shadow Shroud guy, who should consistantly be out of position if he is putting it on your Monks. Keep dropping him and punishing him for the extending, and it will give them big problems. Save your hex removals for Shroud.

sir lockt · May 17, 2006, 02:03 PM // 14:03

True, although I was corrected above, I still believe shroud is an early warning for a spike, or at least shows the coming target, its a nice marker in the dark...

We adapted one of the boons to fit in a skill like GoH, and with the hex removers and some nice kiting, this is more then enough to counter most of the guilds/team. Of course a good spike team will give you little chance, but like countering every spike with boons only, you should rely on your interupts in such case... (CoF)

icemonkey · May 17, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

I think you are really missing half of the story here. This skill is similar to pp/shatter(maybe in only that it is a spike hex) . Whenever my team runs a pp/shatter mixed/adren spike in GvG we punish them with it until they start keying on that hex give away and then immediatly use the hex merely as a distraction. If you start out punishing them with shadow shroud and make the timing really tight, they will start looking only for that hex to react. At that point drop SS on a likely target but one that you are not gonna spike and hit another guy, odds are good that they will totally miss it. after you have distracted them a few times with it, you've blown the whole match open you should be able to do whatever you want.

JR · May 17, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

I think you are really missing half of the story here. This skill is similar to pp/shatter(maybe in only that it is a spike hex) . Whenever my team runs a pp/shatter mixed/adren spike in GvG we punish them with it until they start keying on that hex give away and then immediatly use the hex merely as a distraction. If you start out punishing them with shadow shroud and make the timing really tight, they will start looking only for that hex to react. At that point drop SS on a likely target but one that you are not gonna spike and hit another guy, odds are good that they will totally miss it. after you have distracted them a few times with it, you've blown the whole match open you should be able to do whatever you want.

Why would you add another source of Deep Wound when you already probably have two Warriors with the ability to apply it in the build? It takes up two slots on your Mesmer for something that isn't particulalrly neccasary. It is also far harder (nigh on impossible against good teams) to disguise a fake spike when you are using Warriors.

If you were running Caster Spike with Shadow Shroud I could see your point, as it would be far harder for the other team to guage whether that character was about to be spiked. Caster spike has it's own problems with inflexibility though.

In a straight up Shadow Shroud adren spike build, putting Shadow Shroud on someone does not instantly mean they will be lined up for an Infuse or heavily protted. If they are not in a position of danger, they will probably just get Shroud removed. So really all you are likely to accomplish is making the other team remove a hex.

sir lockt · May 17, 2006, 04:59 PM // 16:59

/agree

remember that when spikes are applied against a boonprot defense line, the main thing is to remove the hex, so one caster (probably not even the boons themselves, but a hex removing mesmer) will get the hex of, so even when its a diversion, the boons will be focussing on every rapid health drop somewhere else. When I spike team is id'ed we often switch armor to increase our max health (by dropping sup runes) and get the interupts at the ready, so all "normal" counters are still in place.

In the worst case, the SS is a diversion, and we have to fight, the old way, when its not a diversion, but an early warning: so much the better...

Flexibility is what made the boon prots, flexibility is what makes your build...

Tortoise · May 18, 2006, 02:39 AM // 02:39

To add to the discussion: Soul Wedding was using a Blessed Light build in some of the E3 challenge fights recently and it seems a viable alternative to running two boon prots. I failed to get one skill though so you'll have to improvise there:

Gift of Health
Blessed Light
RoF
Prot Spirit
Sig of Devotion
Channeling
Powerdrain
XX

I've tryed running the build myself and it is quite effective. You can still split but you pack some nice hex removal and some extra healing power. The micro is a lot harder though. Getting your powerdrain off in the heat of the battle isn't that easy, although I'm quite sure I can make it work with some training.
Anyway, I was a bit surprised to see channeling being used in GvG. I haven't been able to observe any other matches of EvIL recently to see if the build is still in use or already dismissed.