Curse

Demesis · May 08, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

I know this section of the forum is to discuss Pvp builds and such, but I can't find another place to fit this PvP-related article. This is my first post here on GWG. It's very nice to meet you all, I've been reading on this forum for quite a while.

I just like to share a small experience I have during PvP for some light reading for all of you.

"Prejudice is, as the name implies, the process of "pre-judging" something. It implies coming to a judgment on a subject before learning where the preponderance of evidence actually lies, or forming a judgment without direct experience." - wikipedia.com

It's a funny experience in the PvP arenas in the HA. I just logged in today wanting to join a group. When I came in, the group leader asked if I was r3+, at which I said 'not yet'. Before I could say anything else, I was promptly booted out of the group. This has happened a lot to me, wether I joined an IWAY group or a balanced group. Sure, I'm not rank 3, but it doesn't mean that I am all that incompetent at PvP.

It's a sad thing to see in the GW community really, the predjudice and discrimination. How they consider anybody below rank 3 to be utter retards or morons.

Anyway, to share a small story with you. I joined an unranked IWAY group. Which has a much friendlier environment compared to the grumpy ranked ones. I could happily answer questions the other members have and they didn't have to worry about being called n00bs. Most of the people in the group had been so called 'victims' of rank discrimination. When a r3+ ranked player joined our group a while later, he said a small sentence that ticked off our leader:

"Is this a r3+ group???"

Then, like a small rebellion, the other members of the group all said:

"If you don't like unranked groups, then you can LEAVE"

I was sitting in the background watching that strange reverse-rejection of a ranked player. I had never really seen anything like this before...

Well, it's just a story I wanted to share. If you found this uninteresting, then I'm sorry for wasting 2 minutes of your time

JR · May 08, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

As you heard if you listened to the last WoC, the rank system is a ridiculous and meaningless affair in my opinion. You only have to look at the rank farming services in Ventari's to see the whole picture.

I'm glad you didn't have problems hooking up with a group, and had fun.

audioaxes · May 08, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

well you cant say rank is meaningless in forming HA groups

while faulty its still a generally decent indicator of a persons experience in doing HA

and this experience often makes you a better player, as i have said before as i progressed with experience I definitely got better:
was better r3+ than when i was unranked, was better r6+ when i was r3+, was better r9+ than when i was r6+
and yes rank is not perfect as there are people who are r6+ who could be better than someone r9+ or some high ranked guy that ebayed their account or iwayed and doesnt know how to do anything else well or whatever
but does this mean you just disregard rank? I personally play to win and want the best possible chance to win so when my guild needs to pick up a pug or two ill take my chances with the higher ranked player

JR · May 08, 2006, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioaxes

well you cant say rank is meaningless in forming HA groups

while faulty its still a generally decent indicator of a persons experience in doing HA

and this experience often makes you a better player, as i have said before as i progressed with experience I definitely got better:
was better r3+ than when i was unranked, was better r6+ when i was r3+, was better r9+ than when i was r6+
and yes rank is not perfect as there are people who are r6+ who could be better than someone r9+ or some high ranked guy that ebayed their account or iwayed and doesnt know how to do anything else well or whatever
but does this mean you just disregard rank? I personally play to win and want the best possible chance to win so when my guild needs to pick up a pug or two ill take my chances with the higher ranked player

I agree that as a very general rule, you may well take the ranked guy over the unranked if you are unsure about player quality and in a rush. For the most part however, it is complete trash. I personally choose not to make the distinction at all, as I never PuG in HA.

I would almost infinately rather take an unranked guy into my party than a guy who paid for his rank 3 to be farmed. No contest.

Make rank mean something solid, then talk to me about it. At the moment it is just an excuse for elitist scrubs to disciminate against new players trying to get some PvP action unjustly.

Solberg the Exiled · May 08, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

It's simple enough, if you're in ascent and are doing PUG, then prepare for these kind of scenario to happen. And as a general rule, people will want to take ranked people over unranked people if they're just there to win. Although I always wondered why random PUG Iway usually is R3+ or R6+ as they're obviousely not their to win and just to farm fame.

Dinkytowner · May 09, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11

We all had 1 fame at some time. And everyone that has rank was unranked at some point. The rank system is a form of predjuce, but if you had 4 or 5k fame you should have a legitimate chance of winning halls. Would you really want to try to do this with someone doesn't even know the maps? Rank provides the only way for a little bit of sorting to happen even if there are some evils associated with it. That being said, I frequently jump into unranked groups just to quit spamming and play the damn game. You wold be surprised how good a group of r2 players focused on getting bambi can be at times. Many times they are better than those grumpy r3 groups you spoke about. ("OMFGYOUNOOBSIQUIT"... yeah that gets old)

Yes there are ---holes in HA, but they would be ---holes if they were r0 or r12. The bottom line has been said over and over on this thread, build a friends list and join a guild. Good PUGs turn into friends list fodder and guild invites if you want them. Stick it out and HA is fun even when you don't have that stupid deer.

shardfenix · May 09, 2006, 01:00 AM // 01:00

When my guild isnt on, I make unranked pugs just to give new players a chance. Quite honestly, I couldnt care less if I lost all my rank, since rank doesnt tell you anything about someone's play skill unless you have played with them before.
However, if you can't find me when I'm bored, most groups also let you join if you have a certain amount of faction (from RA or TA). I'd say by the time you hit 100K faction, you have a good sense of what works and what doesn't work, and a lot of groups accept players based on that.

Divineshadows · May 09, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

When my guild does HA, we are typically short one to three players and need to get pick-ups. This number makes for a not so time consuming process of getting the additional people we need. I can only imagine the pain that would be necessary to form a group from scratch. We advertise for r3+, but we take r1 or r2 players with us all the time. The main requirement for my guild is players who have vent, will run the build we ask for (all skills and attributes), and are able to follow instructions from the group leader. Most of our pick up players have microphones, but this is not always the case.

The best part is that unranked players are almost always thrilled to be with our group and are very open to following instructions and suggestions.

master_of_puppets · May 09, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

some ppl dont wanna take their chances with an unranked player or take the time to ask every single one their build

true, not all unranked players are total noobs and not all ranked players r good, but the rate of crap unranked vs. ranked ppl is very different

even a r6 who doesnt ever do anything but iway will know more about a balanced build then some r0 who just started by doing balanced. why? because hes faced it be4 many times. and most ppl arent completely oblivious of what kinda team theyre facing

why have a goal of getting 3 fame when u can have a goal of getting to hoh

Solberg the Exiled · May 09, 2006, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

When my guild isnt on, I make unranked pugs just to give new players a chance. Quite honestly, I couldnt care less if I lost all my rank, since rank doesnt tell you anything about someone's play skill unless you have played with them before.
However, if you can't find me when I'm bored, most groups also let you join if you have a certain amount of faction (from RA or TA). I'd say by the time you hit 100K faction, you have a good sense of what works and what doesn't work, and a lot of groups accept players based on that.

Problem comes from the fact that you can't check faction like you can check rank. someone could say that they have over 200k faction and not really have any faction and there would be no way to check it. The gladiotor title is something I guess, but faction is hard to check. It would be better if they allowed a faction check though I think.

Teh Mighty Warrior · May 09, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

You're right, rank doesn't mean shit. Experience does. And as a general rule of thumb, a r0 knows nothing about HoH compared to a ranked player. Someone who just started playing Halls is not at the level of play of other people who have been playing for months. An unranked player doesn't know how to body block, how to interrupt a ghost, how to cap, how to...I could go on all day. Quit your whining and go play with other unranked people. Everyone was unranked at some point or time.

@Solberg Faction doesn't mean anything, I could have farmed it from RA or TA, which has next to nothing to do with Halls.

Dinkytowner · May 09, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Mighty Warrior

You're right, rank doesn't mean shit. Experience does. And as a general rule of thumb, a r0 knows nothing about HoH compared to a ranked player. Someone who just started playing Halls is not at the level of play of other people who have been playing for months. An unranked player doesn't know how to body block, how to interrupt a ghost, how to cap, how to...I could go on all day. Quit your whining and go play with other unranked people. Everyone was unranked at some point or time.

@Solberg Faction doesn't mean anything, I could have farmed it from RA or TA, which has next to nothing to do with Halls.

I agree with pretty much everything you said except the faction part... to a point. You seem to completely rule it out as a indicator of skill. Faction has nothing to do with halls, but doesn't a large ammount of faction gained from the arenas (150-200k) say something about the player's ability to:
a. play as a team, something many ranked iwayers are still incapable of doing
b. find, figure out, make and/or use a character build
c. understand the fundamental differences btw PvP and PvE

I am not in any way trying to say that faction is a better indicator of halls skill than rank, but that a huge ammount of faction deserves a little respect and a chance if you are sick of waiting and want to just play the game. Ultimately, I still think that the unranked player needs to go out and PUG. Get your rank and prove that you are good enough to get into ranked groups. I just think a boat load of faction deserves some respect.

Mo Joe Joe Joe · May 11, 2006, 02:19 AM // 02:19

The reverse discrimination is funny. Heh, people like belonging to a club and rejecting outsiders.

I have also found it curious the different builds carry different levels of concern regarding rank.
IWAY obsessed with rank.
Balanced, Ranger spike or Blood spike not typically worried about rank(mostly concerned whether you have voice com).
VimWay typically not ranked
Minion Factory never ranked
EOE bomb never ranked

Note generally VimWay and MF are born to lose therefore noone ranked wants to waste their time.

Then even more amusing is the unranked groups advertising for a ranked particular component (normally infuser). I understand being an infuse monk is tuff (I am still struggling with it), but for a unranked group to ask for a ranked member cracks me up.

Zui · May 11, 2006, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Mighty Warrior

An unranked player doesn't know how to body block, how to interrupt a ghost, how to cap, how to...I could go on all day.

Sorry, you're wrong.

An unranked player may not know the maps, and common tactics employed on those maps.

Most PvErs know what body blocking is, and how to body block. Most PvPers know what body blocking is, and how to body block. How it's employed in HA is sometimes different, but the entire concept of what it is, how to do it, and why it works is still exactly the same.

Inturupting a Ghost... Inturupting a Ghostly Hero is extremely easy. It's like inturupting a Heal Party, even someone with a 1/2 second inturupt and has a 1 second reaction time(to hit the button) can do it. Knowing to inturupt the hero? Well that's as letting them know to inturupt the hero, again really not a hard thing to communicate.

How to cap, take ghost. Run to altar. I'd hope that everybody can figure this out, as the hero even tells you to take him to the altar, and where you go is quite obvious. Either way, at the absolute worst you might have to tell them to talk to ghost, then follow your drawing on the map to the altar.

The only things an unranked player really can't do are, display a "hero" title and use the /rank function. If you can actualy think of somthing that an unranked player(0-2) can not possibly do, please try me.

sir lockt · May 11, 2006, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Its a long time since I played HA (tombs as it was called in those days...) On that moment I was invited by a rank 3+ team leader. I whispered him that I wasnt rank 3 on that moment, but he asked me some question how (as a monk) I would deal certain situations and he "hired" me.

We battled in the tombs and reached the HoH. In the first battle just some general gj's, after the 2nd and 3rd compliments from all over the team on the monking and even some personally compliments to me about my monking.

Problems started when we won the 4th match: I reached my rank 1 after the win there... half the team complimented with my monking and was happy for my rank... half the team (lead by 1 guy) was flaming like hell this wasnt a rank 3+ team... etc. Even when we fought for the HoH shrine the flames went on...and we lost.

I ended up with the teamleader alone in a team in the Tombs. I told him to find a real rank 3+ team, since skill doesnt matter (even known skill and admitted skill!!!) its just about the number...

Since then I played some tombs and reached rank 2 (99), when IWAY was introduced. The first day I saw a team requireing: rank 6+ W/R required to fill IWAY, I left thombs never to come back...

Just my experience with the system, I think you understand I fully agree with JR and others above... oww and dont worry, I will return to HA, this time with my guild, since rank is becoming manditory in alliance battles and even in mission :s For now we just try to finish this play-off season properly and then we will see if rank 0's can hold the hall...

dgb · May 11, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

You're wrong. I've been in groups which have taken unranked players, thinking much the same thing and seen tehm fail miserably. Sure there are plenty who wouldn't, but don't kid yourself that every unranked player knows the basics.

AhuraMazda · May 11, 2006, 08:03 AM // 08:03

IF you want the Gladiator title you have to win 10 games in a row, TWENTY FIVE times. You win 9 in a row and die in the last match, no luck, no mercy, cya later.

I dont understand why the numbers you can farm in HA should not ONLY be winnable by winning the Halls.

A guy who has never made it past the second map can have the same rank and fame as a guy who is a regular and feared player in the Hall of Heros itself.

Any lucky team, or any poor team drawn against even more woeful opposition can win a match or two, just like in 4v4, or GvG, but it takes a strong team and some tough fights to make it through consecutive victories and actually achieve some impressive.

So I say stop rewarding fame farmers for making up numbers, and make rank/fame something that is exhalted, immensly difficult, and a real tribute to your skill and teamwork.

Change the system so you only get rewarded with titles or ranks or fame by winning the Hall of Heros.

Simple, problem solved. I know this will go down like a lead balloon among the vast number of players who only do HoH so they can boast, but so what, its an actual answer to the problem, imo.

You will in one stroke solve the entire rank/fame debarcle, and at the same time offer up incentive to BE THE BEST, not just grind out victories over and over at the low competition levels.

Face it most people at HA now are not interested in competition, learning, but in grinding out 1 fame at a time. 'Lets go to HA, I want my rank 3/6/9', how many times have YOU heard this?

Either that or change *mighty hero* and *terrifying hero* to more appropriate titles, like *needs more practice*, *time for originality* *fighter in training*

JR · May 11, 2006, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

IF you want the Gladiator title you have to win 10 games in a row, TWENTY FIVE times. You win 9 in a row and die in the last match, no luck, no mercy, cya later.

I dont understand why the numbers you can farm in HA should not ONLY be winnable by winning the Halls.

A guy who has never made it past the second map can have the same rank and fame as a guy who is a regular and feared player in the Hall of Heros itself.

Any lucky team, or any poor team drawn against even more woeful opposition can win a match or two, just like in 4v4, or GvG, but it takes a strong team and some tough fights to make it through consecutive victories and actually achieve some impressive.

So I say stop rewarding fame farmers for making up numbers, and make rank/fame something that is exhalted, immensly difficult, and a real tribute to your skill and teamwork.

Change the system so you only get rewarded with titles or ranks or fame by winning the Hall of Heros.

Simple, problem solved. I know this will go down like a lead balloon among the vast number of players who only do HoH so they can boast, but so what, its an actual answer to the problem, imo.

You will in one stroke solve the entire rank/fame debarcle, and at the same time offer up incentive to BE THE BEST, not just grind out victories over and over at the low competition levels.

Face it most people at HA now are not interested in competition, learning, but in grinding out 1 fame at a time. 'Lets go to HA, I want my rank 3/6/9', how many times have YOU heard this?

Either that or change *mighty hero* and *terrifying hero* to more appropriate titles, like *needs more practice*, *time for originality* *fighter in training*

Amen brother, Amen.

lishi · May 11, 2006, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

IF you want the Gladiator title you have to win 10 games in a row, TWENTY FIVE times. You win 9 in a row and die in the last match, no luck, no mercy, cya later.

I dont understand why the numbers you can farm in HA should not ONLY be winnable by winning the Halls.

The reason is fame show your experience in HA , the entire HA(all maps) , not your ability to beat random arena, team arena ,underworld, a relic run ,HoH or gvg.

Quote:

A guy who has never made it past the second map can have the same rank and fame as a guy who is a regular and feared player in the Hall of Heros itself.

a guy who regular win hoh is ranked or will get his high rank in matter of week , and a guy who have a good rank but never made past the first 2 maps is

a) rare
b) after they see how he suck he will get kicked by almost all of group in few runs.

Quote:

Any lucky team, or any poor team drawn against even more woeful opposition can win a match or two, just like in 4v4, or GvG, but it takes a strong team and some tough fights to make it through consecutive victories and actually achieve some impressive.

any good team who get 2-3 win will only get 2-3 fame tanking age to get a good rank.
and btw the other day my friend testing some boon prot in RA get something like 15+ consecutive , im not sure if that was just a luck or something else becouse im not a fan of RA but ...

Quote:

So I say stop rewarding fame farmers for making up numbers, and make rank/fame something that is exhalted, immensly difficult, and a real tribute to your skill and teamwork.

suggestion?

i will tell you , i reached my rank 9 without ranger,necro spike or iway just balaced , it was IMMENSLY HARD. and i think even for a fame farmer get r9 is hard.

Quote:

Change the system so you only get rewarded with titles or ranks or fame by winning the Hall of Heros.

Simple, problem solved. I know this will go down like a lead balloon among the vast number of players who only do HoH so they can boast, but so what, its an actual answer to the problem, imo.

You will in one stroke solve the entire rank/fame debarcle, and at the same time offer up incentive to BE THE BEST, not just grind out victories over and over at the low competition levels.

While people think HA is only Hoh map i think HA is the entire set(underworld,burial bound,broken tower,scarred earth,unholy temple,dark chamber,Cortyard,Sacred temple,vault,Hall of heroes).
If fame have to show your experience in HA it will pretty useless if you gain it only on last map.
Someone who get rank1 might have see only some map , but someone who is r3 probably see them hall , a r6 guy who probably know them all very good , r9 ect etc etc.

Quote:

Face it most people at HA now are not interested in competition, learning, but in grinding out 1 fame at a time. 'Lets go to HA, I want my rank 3/6/9', how many times have YOU heard this?

that is true , the rank is a goal , so is not strange
if someone what reach that goal.

Quote:

Either that or change *mighty hero* and *terrifying hero* to more appropriate titles, like *needs more practice*, *time for originality* *fighter in training*

not a probrem the name mostly sux

axe · May 11, 2006, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I agree that as a very general rule, you may well take the ranked guy over the unranked if you are unsure about player quality and in a rush. For the most part however, it is complete trash. I personally choose not to make the distinction at all, as I never PuG in HA.

I would almost infinately rather take an unranked guy into my party than a guy who paid for his rank 3 to be farmed. No contest.

Make rank mean something solid, then talk to me about it. At the moment it is just an excuse for elitist scrubs to disciminate against new players trying to get some PvP action unjustly.

1) Never PUGing is a great thing for a very small number of GW players. I would guess that 75% of people in HA use PUGs because they dont have the connections to get into a good guild or cant leave their current guild for whatever reason. I would also guess that 75% of high ranked players never PUG. So there is a huge disadvantage for those of us that rely on PUG and that is where the rank discrimination makes sense. They are just trying to maximize their PUGs chances at winning some matches, they are not playing in HA for the fun of it.

2) Being an unranked player this is encouraging however I will say this. I am unranked I have 7 fame at the moment and I was completely clueless in HA. I have been reading as much on HA as humanly possible and watching on observer mode. But when I got into the actual map, I couldnt tell where I was. As far as my play, I was asked by my group what rank I was (after we lost) and I told them 0, they were surprised, they thought I was ranked (until I made a mistake and didnt run the hero to cap an alter) but I honestly was not confident in my HA abilities, when I would engage an enemy I am VERY confident in my ability to pick out targets and with my skillbar, but the HA strategies can only come with experience, I will get there someday, but as an unranked player I would rather take a ranked player myself, so I can understand and I am not offended when I cant get into a good group. On Fame farming, there are 2 ways to look at it, 1. Someone who is paying for an emote, or 2. someone who is paying to PLAY in a good group. either way they still have to "earn" their fame because as far as I know there is no fame farm service that lets you go AFK while they grind an emote for you, so even a fame farmed Rank 3 (IMO) will have more experience than an unranked player.

Now to share an experience I had. I was in HA and there was an IWAY group R6 that was asking for one more warrior, the guy said "R6+ IWAY LF 1 more IWAY warrior rank doesnt matter to us, we dont care about rank" so I thought to myself "now THAT is really awesome that they are willing to help out us unranked people" so I whispered him to join, he then says "You F'n NOOB -------, we all had to earn our rank, we didnt get to where we are begging to join in a ranked group, go f yourself, etc. etc." the whole group chimed in and I was getting obscenities thrown at me from all directions, best part was I tried to whisper them back only to find out that I was on THEIR ignore lists, so after much abuse I finally had them all on my ignore lists and I got to go about my usually 3 hour wait to get into a group. I called this incident "Noob fishing" and I was the victim.

Rank is very frustrating, but being an unranked player I honestly belive that it DOES help the overall play of HA and there is some meaning behind it. It is experience in HA. Now if they added a second layer to the rank system as stated above for WINNING halls, THAT would be even cooler and I dont think anyone would complain if they added a second layer, you would still have your Rank 9 IWAYs and whatnot, but there would be something more impressive with someone that has experienc winning halls.