Curse

TheOneMephisto · May 23, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Angel

I don't really agree with this.
Either a build requires a lot of skill and coordination that newer players won't have, or it's too good for a build that requires no skill, and requires rebalancing.

What encourages cookie-cutter builds is having only a few top-tier skills of both the elite and non-elite variety, while others don't even come close to comparing. (Come on, are you really going to take Seeping Wound {E} anywhere other than the Arena? Why so many drawbacks on Conjure Nightmare [they even gave it a 1.75 second aftercast, which mainly PbAoE spells get! o_O] in comparison to Conjure Phantasm?)

One of the inital advertising statements was that anyone could pick up the game and start playing competitively, because it's skill over time played. The premades are a huge portion of that because you have almost no skills (if any) unlocked when you start.

I don't think there's a such thing as causing new players to be 'too good', such as the complaints that started up after the Observer Mode appeared, and the Random Arena began filling up with variations of the builds seen within. If the player base becomes more skilled, then it can only be for the better, in my opinion.

True, but I still feel that new players should have to work their way into the PvP game rather than jump in with a top build and start learning it right away. Even though this game is suppose to just pick it up and paly, everyone knows that it still takes tons of experience to really be able to play at top level. The problem is that, say, the standard boon-prot shows up as a pre-made. This will basically make many new players begin by playing as that boon-prot. Once they get comfortable with it, it will be harder for them to adapt and change to new, probably unproven (to them) builds. It's jstu like how people kept saying that they would use OoB after the nerf, just because they were so use to it. This would just encourage everyone to use the boon-prot. I know that I started out monking with a modified DW healer, and for a couple months after learning it I was very reluctant to switch from a WoH healer to a boon-prot just because of my familiarity with that specific build. This may make the player base more skilled, but it will make them all more skilled in one specific build. I would rather have an innovative player-base, especially new players, who don't yet know the cookie-cutters and may just have fun with builds more, than a skilled palyer base taht can play a couple modifications on 1 or 2 builds.

Schorny · May 23, 2006, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

True, but I still feel that new players should have to work their way into the PvP game rather than jump in with a top build and start learning it right away.

what's wrong with learning it the right way?

people who are interested in high level pvp will look at forums or talk to friends about it. They will know the build for a shock warrior or a boon prot.

and people who don't care can be lead to the right way...

Loch · May 23, 2006, 11:24 PM // 23:24

I think the notion of a build being objectively "good" or "too good for newbs to be worthy of using" is just plain silly. You're supposed to judge a build by its purpose in a team, and how well it allows a player to carry out that purpose (or purposes, if it's a utility E/Mo or something). You can't just look at a build and say, "it's good", because you don't know what kind of team it's going to play on, and what kind of role it's trying to fit into.

Most of us here want to see builds that perform relatively well in Random Arenas, since that's where most newbies cut their teeth in PvP, but could be used to fill in general roles in other formats as well. These requirements would exclude one-trick pony gimmicks, and instead promote a list full of builds that teach fundamental playstyles. Because of the nature of these requirements, you can't say that a build is simply "good," you can only judge how well a new player can learn from it and how well a skilled player could use it in higher-level formats. In terms of optimality for any one format, none of the premades need to be considered "good."

Which is why you shouldn't be worried about premades that are "too good."

EDIT: Somewhat off-topic, but I'd like to see locked-ladder GvG premadeway not as a gimmick for laughs, but as a potential force to be reckoned with in the right hands.

Lord Ertihan · May 24, 2006, 03:46 AM // 03:46

My predictions as to the (likely) choices of premade builds:

Boon prot. (dumbed down, probably, but nevertheless I can't see the top guilds not insisting this be a premade. Every major guild uses a 2 Boon Prot Mo/Me backline, how could they NOT insist on this? In addition, with this as a premade, we might actually finally get some decent monks in Random Arenas, not that silly Mending spam junk.)

Aura of Displacement assassin (who did not see this one coming? Unless, of course, the build gets nerfed in some way or another.)

Hammer warrior (Devestating, Crushing, Bash, Fierce. It's quite a common combo these days and might make its way into a prebuild. Maybe even add in Assassin for Death's Charge)

That's about all I have for now. I'm almost certain the first two (unless something fairly major happens) will make it into being prebuilts (it's about time Boonprots are recognized! Nyah!!). The rest I'm not so sure.

TheOneMephisto · May 24, 2006, 08:32 PM // 20:32

You guys are all right, and you have valid points. I'm just kind of tired of seeing build after build with the same boon-prots, the same shock-axe warriors, the same sword chargers, the same hammer wars, the same assassins, etc. Being people new to the game, I think that our best hope for new and original builds really comes from (some) of these newbs, who don't have the same warrior, e/mo, and boon-prot thing pounded into their heads already. This might come about from Factions either way, but even so, almost all assassins are running the same AoD assassins.

The builds should teach players their role(s) (no paladins please), and they should be decent at doing them. However, I don't want to see the same builds that everyone uses on the pre-mades list.

JR · May 24, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

You guys are all right, and you have valid points. I'm just kind of tired of seeing build after build with the same boon-prots, the same shock-axe warriors, the same sword chargers, the same hammer wars, the same assassins, etc.

New popular builds will come from decent players adapting to skill changes and updates, not new players who are given sub-par premades.

TheOneMephisto · May 25, 2006, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

New popular builds will come from decent players adapting to skill changes and updates, not new players who are given sub-par premades.

That's exactly what I hate, popular builds being come up with by players in top GvG builds and being copied by everyone else until they're one of the few (albeit slightly modified) builds out there. One reason why Rift is one of my favorite guilds, because they can be successful running unique builds that (almost) noone else can. I guess that basically only top players can come up with builds though. -sigh- I would love for some other random guild to come up to a top-level position running their own unique build.

suiraCLAW · May 25, 2006, 11:14 AM // 11:14

There are some other problems with some of those "sub-par premades": not everybody knows how to use a specific skill.

I'll give an example: what if you set frenzy in a pre-made? A lot of people would use that build without knowing how to remove it. I mean: they would still use it while under ss/empathy/spoil victor just because they didn't know why sprint/rush is on their bar.

Same with cop, parasitic bond, shock, wild blow, enraged lunge/smash etc.

JR · May 25, 2006, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

There are some other problems with some of those "sub-par premades": not everybody knows how to use a specific skill.

I'll give an example: what if you set frenzy in a pre-made? A lot of people would use that build without knowing how to remove it. I mean: they would still use it while under ss/empathy/spoil victor just because they didn't know why sprint/rush is on their bar.

Same with cop, parasitic bond, shock, wild blow, enraged lunge/smash etc.

Tigers Fury is a good option for an Axe premade, and maybe even a sword. A Hammer premade would almost HAVE to be Frenzy though.

A Tigers Fury Axe warrior isn't particlarly sub-par either; if you watch Char vs WM, in the first round you can see how well it works for Immortal Ric and Lord Corwen. Just use a Zealous Axe to keep your energy up and you can use Tigers Fury a hell of a lot for quick building and spiking.

CoRrRan · May 27, 2006, 05:44 AM // 05:44

I myself am also really looking forward to what kind of premades are being engineered by the Season 2 Playoff champs. One thing I do know is, is that it won't be [iQ], [Te] or [EvIL].

Somehow I do wonder what kind of premades would surface if SotW would win the Season 2 Playoffs.

Greedy Gus · May 27, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoRrRan

Somehow I do wonder what kind of premades would surface if SotW would win the Season 2 Playoffs.

Unless I missed something, SotW ran nothing but solid, poweful, flexible builds...

Zui · May 27, 2006, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Don't think you missed anything then.

Loch · May 28, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Looks like EW will be helping ANet design the premades.

Rathcail · May 28, 2006, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Now wouldn't it be fun if they made a FoC premade?

Pi_Numurian · May 28, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

I would like to see a nice iway

Byron · May 28, 2006, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Nobody else is worried about what these new premades could bring? Instead of Whammos populating the arenas and factions battles, it could be Shock-axes, who are always moderately effective as long as Eviscerate lands.

Hopefully (and unlikely), the new premades will emphasize the use of more effective skills than they have previously. EG = hex breaker instead of bonetti's defense on a monk. Or bull's strike instead of hamstring; things of that nature.

Greedy Gus · May 29, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Nobody else is worried about what these new premades could bring? Instead of Whammos populating the arenas and factions battles, it could be Shock-axes, who are always moderately effective as long as Eviscerate lands.

No, I'm not worried about people actually using good builds. Any retard who still runs garbage builds in RA after observer mode was introduced probably won't change their ways because of pre-mades. And to new players who just want to PvP but can't run good skills, this will be a godsend for speeding up their time to get into PvP if they're given good builds.

CoRrRan · May 29, 2006, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Unless I missed something, SotW ran nothing but solid, poweful, flexible builds...

My post was in now way intended to be disrepectful for SotW. If it sounded that way, my appologies to them. Heck, they even made the playoffs, they are solid, powerful and flexible.

I think my comment was based on them being a Japannese guild of who I have heard little. But that is probably due to me, and not due to them.

And now I am wondering what kind of build EW will think up for starting PvP'ers and if A.Net will have the entire pre-made roster cleaned up, or if they are going to make some additions to the current list. I sincerely hope that they will clean up/update the current roster.

And yes: please give the best possible build available. It'll give the new PvP'ers pleasure in playing them and while doing so gain faction to unlock other stuff.

Xasew · May 29, 2006, 03:56 PM // 15:56

I wish these are implemented:
-Boon Prot
-Shock Axer
-AoD+GPS+Horns+Spider+Fangs Assassin

And make it so that using Mending on a Warrior makes him get 3 degen instead of regen.

tomcruisejr · May 29, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

yay, foc necro spiker and ritualist spirit spammer!