Curse

Loch · May 20, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

This has been posted for a few days already on the Guild Wars website, but I feel it deserves its own topic here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by guildwars.com

GWFC Season #2 Reward Announced

ArenaNet announces a special opportunity being offered for the winner of the second Guild Wars Factions Championship series seasonal playoff! ArenaNet wants the winning guild to help redesign, update, and personalize the PVP templates in Guild Wars and Guild Wars Factions!

The winning guild will work with ArenaNet staff to create or update new versions of some of the PVP templates. This guild will be asked to provide play tips for these templates and will be listed as the designers for them as well.

Here is a chance for your guild to change the face of the game and to be immortalized in Guild Wars history! More details will follow soon!

New premades designed by pros and assisted by ArenaNet staff. How sweet is that?

You see, I'm against the idea of just letting guilds submit premades, because nothing stops them from submitting a trashy gimmick or a cool build that requires a specific team context for it to work. The ArenaNet staff can prevent them from submitting questionable builds, which I think is key to finally getting a great set of templates.

JR · May 20, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

You see, I'm against the idea of just letting guilds submit premades, because nothing stops them from submitting a trashy gimmick or a cool build that requires a specific team context for it to work. The ArenaNet staff can prevent them from submitting questionable builds, which I think is key to finally getting a great set of templates.

Taking the winner of the GWFC, I think you could be sure that their submitted premades would be free of trashy gimmicks. And I am fairly sure they understand how the game works well enough to not submit something that does require a specific team context.

However, I do agree with what the rest of you said. Fingers crossed that Te or iQ take the championship, if we want some truly top quality premades.

dansamy · May 20, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

At the same time that I am glad to see that we will eventually get new pre-mades, I am disappointed that the previous submissions were never implemented. (Bear in mind that these new pre-mades will not even begin to be developed until after the playoffs. Then development time and actual release date may, once again, prove to outdate them before we ever have a chance to play them in the game environment that they were effective in.)

Loch · May 20, 2006, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Taking the winner of the GWFC, I think you could be sure that their submitted premades would be free of trashy gimmicks. And I am fairly sure they understand how the game works well enough to not submit something that does require a specific team context.

True on both counts. Actually, now that I think about it, the idea of needing a filter for premades was more necessary back when the guilds were chosen based on ladder rank, not a proven champion. Because if I'm not mistaken (and chances are I am), a few of the guilds in the top 20 "3-2-1-spiked" their way to the top, and perhaps these players wouldn't understand how to develop and use a good pressure build.

Even in this case, the ArenaNet staff will make sure the champions have the correct perspective on what the premade builds should accomplish, whatever that perspective may be.

JR · May 20, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by dansamy

At the same time that I am glad to see that we will eventually get new pre-mades, I am disappointed that the previous submissions were never implemented. (Bear in mind that these new pre-mades will not even begin to be developed until after the playoffs. Then development time and actual release date may, once again, prove to outdate them before we ever have a chance to play them in the game environment that they were effective in.)

If you remember though; shortly after the last set of premade submissions were submitted there was a huge skill balance that saw the end of the Gale Axe / OoB Boon Prot dominated metagame. Then Factions was released with two new classes and a whole new set of skills. I think it was definately a good idea for Anet to hold off on updating them, although it should have been done MUCH sooner anyway.

I think the premades submitted by the winners of the GWFC will be solid for a long time, regardless of metagame. For example look at builds like Tigers Fury Axe Warrior, E/Mo, Word of Healing Monk... None of which have been particularly effected by skill changes. There are plenty of builds that have always been solid, are solid now, and will probably be solid for a long time yet. These are what the premades should be based on.

dansamy · May 20, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Well, it's my understanding that in addition to iQ's OoB monk, another guild had submitted an Inspiration Boon monk. (I can't recall if it was MoR or E Drain.) I could, of course, be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I recall the discussion over boon monks at the time those pre-mades were submitted and debate over whether the Inspiration monk or the OoB monk should be chosen.

I was unaware a gale warrior had been submitted, however even a gale axer should be easily modifiable to its current seemingly counter-part: the shock axer.

I agree with including basic, timeless builds such as a TF Axe, Ether Prodigy E/Mo, WoH, RC Prot. These would be usable in varied situations and tweakable to provide further usefulness.

JR · May 20, 2006, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by dansamy

Well, it's my understanding that in addition to iQ's OoB monk, another guild had submitted an Inspiration Boon monk. (I can't recall if it was MoR or E Drain.) I could, of course, be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I recall the discussion over boon monks at the time those pre-mades were submitted and debate over whether the Inspiration monk or the OoB monk should be chosen.

Te submitted a MoR Boon Prot, which at the time was subpar in my opinion. Now however it is really quite nice. I can't remember the exact skill bar, but it was something like this:

Reversal of Fortune
Mend Condition
Guardian
Protective Spirit
Signet of Devotion
Contemplation of Purity
Mantra of Recall
Divine Boon

Quote:

Originally Posted by dansamy

I was unaware a gale warrior had been submitted, however even a gale axer should be easily modifiable to its current seemingly counter-part: the shock axer.

True enough, however you have to account for a completely new player who picks up Guild Wars, and fires up a premade. Does he know to swap out Gale for Shock? Not really.

Although having premades that only require very minimal modification is still as you say a vast improvment over what we have at the moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dansamy

I agree with including basic, timeless builds such as a TF Axe, Ether Prodigy E/Mo, WoH, RC Prot. These would be usable in varied situations and tweakable to provide further usefulness.

Exactly, so as to why they have never been made premades.... I don't know.

Loch · May 20, 2006, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

There are plenty of builds that have always been solid, are solid now, and will probably be solid for a long time yet. These are what the premades should be based on.

I agree with this 100%.

Here's to hoping that the ArenaNet staff agrees with you too. :P

TheOneMephisto · May 20, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

However, you have to remember that premades can't be the most optimal builds. I personally think that each premade should be slightly sub-optimal, encouraging modification.

Loch · May 20, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

However, you have to remember that premades can't be the most optimal builds.

Please define "optimal". With the number of PvP modes out there, rarely is a build suited perfectly for everything, so of course newbies will be encouraged to modify their builds to suit their team.

TheOneMephisto · May 20, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

For instance, you don't give them one of the overused builds, like don't give them a fully tricked out boonprot that everone uses. Or don't give them the shock-axe. You have to sub out at least some of the skills or change it to make it so that they can discover those builds if they want to. Keep in mind that most newbies are going to be RAing for a while, and they won't be dealing with team builds.

That's why I think that it's so hard to create pre-mades, because you basically want to encourage people to unlock skills, not to encourage people just to make premades for even mid-high end PvP.

Warskull · May 21, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

This sounds like a good thing, but at the same time it makes me worry. Last time they claimed they would do this they just ended up doing absolutely nothing. This could easily end up the same way, especially if they have communication issues with the winner or the winner just doesn't care to make templates.

NatalieD · May 22, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

I don't agree that premades should be made deliberately sucky, but if they are, at the very least make that explicit to the new players choosing them. Otherwise you'll just be teaching them bad habits.

romO · May 22, 2006, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Taking the winner of the GWFC, I think you could be sure that their submitted premades would be free of trashy gimmicks.

If offered this opportunity, I think it would be hard for anyone not to use one of their slots to submit a hamstorm warrior. It's just too damn tempting. Imagine the revolution in random arena. Firestorm > Mending.

Loch · May 22, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

A Deadly Combination.

TheOneMephisto · May 22, 2006, 08:31 PM // 20:31

I don't think that the premades should be sucky, but they shouldn't be awesome either. Builds like the hammer war (abdominable snowman?) and the DW healer are the kinds of builds that I think are great for premades, they work like they should, they give you ideas for builds, and they still have room for improvement.

Guillaume De Sonoma · May 23, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

What would you consider over powered? A TF axe warrior like this:

1. Tigers Fury
2. Sprint
3. Eviscerate
4. Executioner's Strike
5. Penetrating Blow
6. Distracting Blow
7. Axe Rake
8. Rez Sig

or would you dumb it down with something like this:

1. Eviscerate
2. Executioners
3. Disrupting Chop
4. Watch Yourself
5. Healing Signet
6. Sprint
7. Tiger's Fury
8. Endure Pain

I made the second one different because in RA you won't always have monks.

Mercury Angel · May 23, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

They're trying again? o_O

They've been saying again, and again, that they would upload new premade templates, but barring the new factions ones, they've only REMOVED templates. (Flame Slinger)

Particularly after the last world championship, they had an announcement that the top guilds would submit builds, and that the player base would get to vote on which ones they'd like to see included in the premade templates.

Didn't happen.
But meh, whatever. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it just didn't receive enough interest to actually be completed.

As for what builds are actually used, there was a topic about one of the guild's build submissions. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=10615
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...43&postcount=6

Just thought that might be somewhat interesting, even if it's only slightly relevant. That is to say, the procedure behind how the builds are submitted and chosen is just as important as the people that submit them.

TheOneMephisto · May 23, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

What would you consider over powered? A TF axe warrior like this:

1. Tigers Fury
2. Sprint
3. Eviscerate
4. Executioner's Strike
5. Penetrating Blow
6. Distracting Blow
7. Axe Rake
8. Rez Sig

or would you dumb it down with something like this:

1. Eviscerate
2. Executioners
3. Disrupting Chop
4. Watch Yourself
5. Healing Signet
6. Sprint
7. Tiger's Fury
8. Endure Pain

I made the second one different because in RA you won't always have monks.

First one I probably wouldn't like just because there's no self-heal, and since new players will almost always be playing in RA first self-heals are a must. On the second one switch out disrupting, endure, or watch yourself for a res sig (I think that every pre-made should have a res sig) and It would be decent. Especially since I don't really count TF axe warriors as those "best builds" since Frenzy is much better on warriors. What I'm more scared of is a build like:

Reversal of Fortune
Mend Ailment
Guardian
Inspired Hex
Signet of Devotion
Contemplation of Purity
Mantra of Recall/E-Drain
Divine Boon

Finding it's way onto the pre-mades list. I think that it would be extremely bad if people could use the pre-made with only 1-2 modifications in actually top-level PvP. This would basically discourage modifications and unlocking, while encouraging gookie-cutter builds.

Mercury Angel · May 23, 2006, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

I think that it would be extremely bad if people could use the pre-made with only 1-2 modifications in actually top-level PvP. This would basically discourage modifications and unlocking, while encouraging gookie-cutter builds.

I don't really agree with this.
Either a build requires a lot of skill and coordination that newer players won't have, or it's too good for a build that requires no skill, and requires rebalancing.

What encourages cookie-cutter builds is having only a few top-tier skills of both the elite and non-elite variety, while others don't even come close to comparing. (Come on, are you really going to take Seeping Wound {E} anywhere other than the Arena? Why so many drawbacks on Conjure Nightmare [they even gave it a 1.75 second aftercast, which mainly PbAoE spells get! o_O] in comparison to Conjure Phantasm?)

One of the inital advertising statements was that anyone could pick up the game and start playing competitively, because it's skill over time played. The premades are a huge portion of that because you have almost no skills (if any) unlocked when you start.

I don't think there's a such thing as causing new players to be 'too good', such as the complaints that started up after the Observer Mode appeared, and the Random Arena began filling up with variations of the builds seen within. If the player base becomes more skilled, then it can only be for the better, in my opinion.