Curse

Finkis · May 03, 2006, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Yay or Nay to Bunny Thumpers? Are they good or bad? Do you like them or dislike them?

suiraCLAW · May 03, 2006, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Offcourse I like them

A thumper's power is that he and his pet both deal good dmg, and offcourse the knockdowns a thumper causes.

BTW: dual thumper builds are pretty popular these days...

JR · May 03, 2006, 12:21 PM // 12:21

They are pretty decent.

In my opinion it takes a fairly specific build in order to make them look good enough to take the place of a warrior; something very much focused on large amounts of pressure, with no real spike.

As far as Arena goes.. You could pick worse builds, but I would still rather take a Warrior.

art_ · May 03, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

I like them. I think they have extremely good pressure.

Elrodien · May 03, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

I hate playing against a 2 man bunny thumper team (as stated, popular in TA at the moment) so I guess they are good. They do apply good pressure especially if they are allowed to team up on your monk.

suiraCLAW · May 03, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

I hate playing against a 2 man bunny thumper team (as stated, popular in TA at the moment) so I guess they are good. They do apply good pressure especially if they are allowed to team up on your monk.

they shouldn't team up on your monk, splitsing targets is much more effective in such a build.

JR · May 03, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Not to mention that your team shouldn't be letting them team up on your monk.

Divineshadows · May 03, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

They are pretty decent.

In my opinion it takes a fairly specific build in order to make them look good enough to take the place of a warrior; something very much focused on large amounts of pressure, with no real spike.

As far as Arena goes.. You could pick worse builds, but I would still rather take a Warrior.

A warrior has more damage and better armor. I have yet to meet a thumper that knows how to kite when they get targetted by a warrior. I usually have a team that has some form of monk hate such as a dom mesmer, so I ask my mesmer to shutdown their monk and ask my warrior (99% of the time it is hammer or axe for TA) to stick on their thumper.

Keep in mind that ranger armor has the same AL v physical that monk judge's armor has.

The third reason I would not choose a thumper over a hammer warrior is no stonefist guantlets.

suiraCLAW · May 03, 2006, 06:16 PM // 18:16

There's one reason why i would take a thumper above a warrior: their pet, and that's a good reason...

@Divineshadows, It's thrue that a warrior has more damage then a thumper without the skill charm animal, but really: calculate the damage of the thumper + pet and it's far higher then a warrior.

@JR: I call the combo "hammer bash -> crushing blow -> irresistible" while under TF a spike... (near 300 dmg, just like the evis -> exec -> rake combo)

BTW: factions gave thumpers a nice new attack: Bestial mauling (Your animal companion attempts a Bestial Mauling that deals 5..17 damage. If the attack strikes a knocked-down foe, that foe is Dazed for 5..20 seconds. ).

JR · May 03, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

@JR: I call the combo "hammer bash -> crushing blow -> irresistible" while under TF a spike... (near 300 dmg, just like the evis -> exec -> rake combo)

If you actually tested those skill chains (given 12 Hammer Mastery vs. 16 Axe Mastery), you would see that the Axe comes out far ahead. Very far ahead. Especially if you run Penetrating instead of Rake.

Iskrah · May 03, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Depends what kind of Bunny Thumper you're talking about.

TF -> adrenaline -> Backbreaker -> crushing blow -> brutal strike spammed
is absolutely deadly. You can use Backbreaker between every 12 and 18 seconds.

A+ in Arenas, C in GvG.

Valerria · May 03, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

On Your Knees and Lightning Reflex combined will give you an IAS and evasive stance in the Expertise line. However it requires a KD that doesn't lose all adrenaline.

Divineshadows · May 03, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

@Divineshadows, It's thrue that a warrior has more damage then a thumper without the skill charm animal, but really: calculate the damage of the thumper + pet and it's far higher then a warrior.

So why would you not just run a W/R axe with Tiger's Fury and charm animal if you are looking for extra damage from a pet? Or a W/R hammer with frenzy/rush and charm animal? Both of these have better armor and exceed the thumper's damage and the hammer warrior still gets the knockdown. I agree that the damage from a pet is non-trivial, but there are problems with using a pet:

1. Once attacking it is nearly impossible to get them to stop attacking. This is a big problem when you run into teams that use spiteful spirit (a lot of said teams tend to use empathy and/or insidious parasite as well). Sure a lot of players in TA/RA attack straight through these hexes anyway, but with a pet you are not even given the choice. Oftentimes the thumpers gets AoEd by their own pet with SS on it.

2. A bar filled with pet attacks can be countered as well by the very common air ele. A curse necromancer can throw off the timing of disrupting lunge.

3. Pet pathing is horrible. It is like an auto-attacking warrior and you have no control over the path it takes. The pet will run straight through lava if it is the shortest path to the target. Lack of control (see issue 1) is the biggest issue I have with using pets.

4. When the pet dies it blacks out your adrenaline. An ill-timed pet death can also prevent you from using rez sig at a critical time.

5. If you really want to make the pet damage sustainable you have to be able to rez your pet. This fills your skill bar with two skills making it very crowded and ultimately you leave out some utility skill that a warrior would be able to fit in with ease.

suiraCLAW · May 04, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

So why would you not just run a W/R axe with Tiger's Fury and charm animal if you are looking for extra damage from a pet? Or a W/R hammer with frenzy/rush and charm animal? Both of these have better armor and exceed the thumper's damage and the hammer warrior still gets the knockdown. I agree that the damage from a pet is non-trivial, but there are problems with using a pet:

Because lack of energy, you can't even think about using a IAS + pet attacks on a warrior, ferocious strike doesn't matter at all. (those 3 energy each 8 secs won't save you)

About your 5 points: I completely agree with point 1 and 3, but i do have some questions about the other ones:

point 2: you are a air ele, wich 2 people will you blind: 2 thumpers (or a thumper and a warrior), 2 pets or 1 thumper and 1 pet? I bet you'll spend you're energy into the first option. Disrupting lunge is spammed without timing, I can't see how a curse nec can stop the timing if there is none.

point 4: why does my pet (almost) never die? Perhaps because it has pretty much armor + it can't carry a res sig. If it dies, it's because traps, ss or aoe damage...

point 5: see point 4

sno · May 04, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

All you guys complaining about hexes or conditions should consider finding a better monk. If hexes and/or conditions are allowed to remain on your party, you should lose, period. A good monk should be able to keep his party relatively clean, in my builds I generally run at least 2-3 hex removals for the party (2 on me as monk, and usually one on the mesmer, plus CoP.)

Divineshadows · May 04, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Because lack of energy, you can't even think about using a IAS + pet attacks on a warrior, ferocious strike doesn't matter at all. (those 3 energy each 8 secs won't save you)

Why would you throw pet attacks into a W/R bar? The adrenal attacks would be better because they do not require energy and they have more bonus damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

About your 5 points: I completely agree with point 1 and 3, but i do have some questions about the other ones:

point 2: you are a air ele, wich 2 people will you blind: 2 thumpers (or a thumper and a warrior), 2 pets or 1 thumper and 1 pet? I bet you'll spend you're energy into the first option. Disrupting lunge is spammed without timing, I can't see how a curse nec can stop the timing if there is none.

Really it depends on the skills the opposing teams is using and the make-up of my team. For instance, if the team with 2 thumpers is running draw conditions on a say an ether prodigy air ele, then the best strategy would be to spread the blind and weakness conditions around to the thumpers and the pets and avoid condition stacking because of the way that draw conditons functions. In particular, I would blind the thumpers and weaken their pets.
If the thumpers have their bar filled with many more pet attacks than hammer attacks (ferocious strike, disrupting lunge, etc.), then the reverse strategy could be taken with blinded pets and weakened rangers. How to play it depends highly on which skills the thumper is using, which skills their team has for condition removal, and what skills your other players are using.

Against a team with two melee an air ele goes a long way and makes this character even more efficient, but that is not sufficient alone to deal with two warriors or two thumpers. There are other players on your team after all. A little e-denial thrown at their main source of condition removal amplifies the power of the air ele.

I really do not understand teams that run two melee in team arenas. This offers your monk much less support from the team and creates mismatches when you run into a good team that has one anti-melee character since so many anti-melee skills scale with the number of enemy melee. It also forces your team to have either an anti-melee or an anti-caster but not both. Assuming you want to run two melee, I definately think that two hammer warriors is the way to go and pair them with an anti-melee that has draw conditions and heal other, because knockdown can provide a level of shutdown vaguely similar (shorter duration but much more powerful) to what an anti-caster can provide. Still, the first good balanced team you run into will exploit the mismatches they can create and punish you for having two melee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

point 4: why does my pet (almost) never die? Perhaps because it has pretty much armor + it can't carry a res sig. If it dies, it's because traps, ss or aoe damage...

point 5: see point 4

Your pet almost never dies, because most TA teams ignore the pet. Most builds warrant doing so, because the pet is much less threatening than the players on your team (at least I would hope so). A team with either spiteful spirit and/or some degen such as traps, mantra of persistence+conjure phantasm, poison, life siphon, etc. is well equipped to kill a pet when they are spreading the degen to multiple people.

When playing against a team with thumpers and you notice that they did not bring comfort animal, then it is reasonable to kill their pets and reduce their damage.

Blow Up Doll · May 04, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

All you guys complaining about hexes or conditions should consider finding a better monk. If hexes and/or conditions are allowed to remain on your party, you should lose, period. A good monk should be able to keep his party relatively clean, in my builds I generally run at least 2-3 hex removals for the party (2 on me as monk, and usually one on the mesmer, plus CoP.)

When i play monk (most of the time) in Ta i take Inspired Hex + Holy Veil + CoP and still i cannot keep all hexes off my teams. If you are facing a hex heavy team and you are the only monk...i would be amazed if you could either (esp. with the CoP nerf on recharge time). A good monk is not one who keeps his team clean of hexes but one who can identify which hexes are on someone and which they need to get rid of. (This is much easier when people can call thier hexes on ts/vent).

Falrow · May 05, 2006, 01:00 AM // 01:00

One skill.

Beastial Mauling.

Jornac · May 05, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

They are useless against any decent warrior.

21 Second balanced stance, and -5 damage reduction

nullifies andbody who relies on knockdown

denshuu · May 05, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

They are useless against any decent warrior.
21 Second balanced stance, and -5 damage reduction

Yeah, because Balanced Stance is a staple of any decent warrior build.