Curse

OneArmedScissor · May 09, 2006, 05:34 AM // 05:34

R/?
1. Res. Signet
2. Oath Shot {E}
3. Flame Trap
4. Barbed Trap
5. Dust Trap
6. *Apply Poison*
7. Tranquility
8. Whirling Defense

The second R/? trapper is exactly the same as above, but with Nature's Renewal for slot number 7.

W/E
1. Res. Sig
2. Frenzy
3. Eviscerate {E}
4. Executioner's Strike
5. Penetrating Blow
6. Disrupting Chop
7. Sprint
8. Shock

Your standard W/E axe shock build, or a Bunny Thumper.

Mo/W
1. Orison of Healing
2. Heal Other
3. Mend Ailment
4. Heal Party
5. *Healing Skill*
6. Smite hex
7. "Shields up!"
8. Victory is Mine! {E}

The monk will have a shield on switch so that it can use Shields Up when necessary.

The idea:

Boon prots are every where in team arenas. The idea is for your monk not to use any enchant spells. Why? Because Tranquility and Nature's Renewal will be used to make enchantments near worthless.
1 Ranger will primarily trap around the monk... assuming they have a warrior and/or assassin attacking the monk. The 2nd Ranger will assist the warrior or bunny thumber in taking out the monk. The monk will use Victory is Mine to gane health and energy.

Tranquility - Create a level 1..8 Spirit. Enchantments cast by creatures within its range expire 20..44% faster. This Spirit dies after 15..51 seconds

Nature's Renewal - Create a level 1...8 Spirit. For 30...126 seconds, Enchantments and Hexes take twice as long to cast, and it costs twice as much Energy to maintain Enchantments. This Spirit dies after 30...126 seconds.

These two spirits will aid in nullifying boon prot monks in TA.

Critique please.

suiraCLAW · May 09, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Looks pretty much like this build: http://gwshack.us/a1937 (you can see it in the thread "degen builds in ta")

didn't tested this one, but it looks quite strong except the monk: try using eternal light in place of heal party and healing wisper in your "healing skills" slot.

BTW: I did my build a lot of times with a shock axe in place of that thumper, somewhat same amount of consec's...

Divineshadows · May 09, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

"Shields up!"

The monk will have a shield on switch so that it can use Shields Up when necessary.

Why? Because Tranquility and Nature's Renewal will be used to make enchantments near worthless.

These two spirits will aid in nullifying boon prot monks in TA.

Critique please.

First, a player does not need a shield to get the benefits from shields up.

Second, those spirits are not going to do anything to good teams. The maps in team arenas are large enough that spirit range does not consume anywhere near the whole map. A smart team will kill the spirits quickly or, if the spirits are trapped too heavily, get out of spirit range. When your team advances to lay the spirits again (particularly nature's renewal), they will either interrupt, knock down, or blackout the ranger when laying the spirit.

Your monk has no help from his team with respect to an alternate source of healing (heal other is my favorite), an alternate source of condition removal (the recharge on mend ailment is going to kill your team), and an alternate source of hex removal.

TheOneMephisto · May 09, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

However, this team will eat up boon-prots if played properly, considering that the two spirits will basically kill boon-prots. Also, oath shot allows for a decent spirit-laying ability. Your monk may not be supplemented with healing, but the other teams monk will have his healing cut down big-time.

I do agree that you should help out your monk a little bit, maybe stick a veil or mend on each ranger?

Divineshadows · May 09, 2006, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

However, this team will eat up boon-prots if played properly, considering that the two spirits will basically kill boon-prots. Also, oath shot allows for a decent spirit-laying ability. Your monk may not be supplemented with healing, but the other teams monk will have his healing cut down big-time.

I do agree that you should help out your monk a little bit, maybe stick a veil or mend on each ranger?

Sigh, looks like I will have to be more blunt. No smart team is going to allow this team to eat their boon prot and will do the following to prevent this:

- avoid getting AoEd by traps
- remember the location of traps and avoid triggering them
- avoid fighting your team at choke points on maps
- move away from that ranger squatting next to you
- agressively remove conditions to completely mess over your monk's energy management
- wand your trappers as even through whirling they are not immune to interruption
- not leave nature's renewal up for more than 3 seconds; surge/burn/orb/strike are all good spells for getting rid of spirits quickly from range
- strafe your oath shots (enjoy getting your whole bar messed over)
- get out of the enemies spirit range when things are not going well ffs; this buys time for the team to discuss the skills being used against them and how to pick the opposition apart. Spirit builds in TA are susceptible to this tactic since they are much less powerful without their spirits allowing you to just run circles around the map until you've figured out how to beat them. When running circles on the map, having a wand on the warrior is important so that adrenaline is kept up allowing for a quick kill.

Bottom line -- this build is far too dependant on dumb opposition to be viable. The traps and spirits tie you down to a certain section of the map when the opposition has absolutely no incentive to fight you there (where you are strongest). The healing build lacks the best healing skill in the game for 4v4 which is word of healing (best healing skill in game for 8v8 is heal party), lacks the responsiveness (1/4 second cast) and protection that a boon prot can provide, and will quickly crumble under any sort of pressure w/ damage.

Nazutul · May 10, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Does anyone think that perhaps the spirit spammer and the trapper could be combined? That would free up another spot for either more spike damage (Perhaps an Air Spiker, Earth Spiker, Ranger Spiker), another tank (Bunny Thumper?) or perhaps a anti-caster mesmer (E-Denial, Blackout, or Shut Down), or even an anti-melee caster. (SS N/Mo?)

Just a thought.

OneArmedScissor · May 10, 2006, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Sigh, looks like I will have to be more blunt. No smart team is going to allow this team to eat their boon prot and will do the following to prevent this:

- avoid getting AoEd by traps
- remember the location of traps and avoid triggering them
- avoid fighting your team at choke points on maps
- move away from that ranger squatting next to you
- agressively remove conditions to completely mess over your monk's energy management
- wand your trappers as even through whirling they are not immune to interruption
- not leave nature's renewal up for more than 3 seconds; surge/burn/orb/strike are all good spells for getting rid of spirits quickly from range
- strafe your oath shots (enjoy getting your whole bar messed over)
- get out of the enemies spirit range when things are not going well ffs; this buys time for the team to discuss the skills being used against them and how to pick the opposition apart. Spirit builds in TA are susceptible to this tactic since they are much less powerful without their spirits allowing you to just run circles around the map until you've figured out how to beat them. When running circles on the map, having a wand on the warrior is important so that adrenaline is kept up allowing for a quick kill.

Bottom line -- this build is far too dependant on dumb opposition to be viable. The traps and spirits tie you down to a certain section of the map when the opposition has absolutely no incentive to fight you there (where you are strongest). The healing build lacks the best healing skill in the game for 4v4 which is word of healing (best healing skill in game for 8v8 is heal party), lacks the responsiveness (1/4 second cast) and protection that a boon prot can provide, and will quickly crumble under any sort of pressure w/ damage.

1. The warrior and one of the trappers work together. Trapper traps areas around the monk, anticipating where he will run to. If the monk doesn't run, he'll get beat to sleep by the warrior. Oath Shot will allow the trapper to lay multiple barbed traps. Also, with the other trapper being designated as a defensive trapper, what is your warrior suppose to do when there are traps all around the monk? Run in and set them all off? But you just said avoid them.

2. There will be multiple traps laid at all times. Try remembering where 6+ traps have been laided while you're running from a warrior, trying to heal party members, etc.

3. Good advice, but this team will try to force the opposing team to fight at choke points. The team can always trap and force the opposing team into choke points. Would you rather run into a mess of traps or move to a choke point? One of your previous points was that you avoid traps.

4. Good advice, but do you remember exactly where the ranger laid his other 3 or 4 traps? If you're running or moving away, you aren't attacking or healing.

5. Your monk will run out of energy quickly if you're constantly removing conditions. Burning, poison, crippled, bleeding, blind, and deep wounds... That's alot of conditions to be removing from your entire team. Last time I checked, the condition removing skills don't recharge instantly either. With conditions constantly being spread, the monk shouldn't have too much trouble with energy management. There will be more conditions being applied than can be removed by the enemy monk.

6. You won't be wanding the trappers constantly. Ohh no... you interrupted a trap. Remember both rangers will have Oath Shot. One of the trappers being wanded? Ok just use apply poison and start spreading poison around.

7. Ok... waste all your attack skills on spirits which will be instantly recharged using Oath Shot.

8. If you're constantly running in the attempt to avoid the Oath Shot, you won't be attacking or healing. In addition, the more you run around, the greater the chance of you setting off a trap.

9. Again... Oath Shot. You run away from spirits, trappers trap the area and the team moves as a unit towards the opposing team. Oath Shot, lay spirits again. Lay the spirits originally in an open area, forcing the opposing team into choke points or other undesirable locations.

Just because you have some way of fighting against a specific team doesn't mean that team will allow you to fight that way. Simply put, make them play your game.

Your suggestions are extremely optimistic and lacking much practicality.

Zui · May 10, 2006, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

Trapper traps areas around the monk, anticipating where he will run to. If the monk doesn't run, he'll get beat to sleep by the warrior.

Any non-retarded monk will notice where the trapper is trapping, and avoid that area, the trapper anticipating where the monk may run won't work. Especialy since once the monk realises there are traps there, he's going to avoid that location. With that said, the monk should still be able to effectively kite the warrior.

[quote=OneArmedScissor]Oath Shot will allow the trapper to lay multiple barbed traps.quote]

Ok, Oath Shot will allow the trapper to trap more, you're absolutly right. Twice as often on barbed trap, assuming your Oath Shot always hits. However with a raging axe warrior, I wouldn't be supprised if the monk uses guardian, giving around 40% chance to block, plus or minus a few %(due to attribs). So, your oath shot will be blocked a good bit, and your oath shot will also be EVADED. Since it has a 20 second recharge, any compitent player who's watching you even alittle, can pretty much anticipate when you'll use it, and just strafe to try and evade it, or move behind an object, causing you to fail to hit again, or repostition. Everytime your oath shot fails to hit, it's REALLY going to suck to have all your skills disabled for 10 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

with the other trapper being designated as a defensive trapper, what is your warrior suppose to do when there are traps all around the monk? Run in and set them all off?[/

Two options:

Force the monk to move out of the traps by retreating a bit(or forcing your warrior and offensive trapper to stop attacking).

You got it. Run in and set them all off. Run back out. Support charactar uses draw conditions on you(which is almost a staple on a blinder or curse necro, which are both very popular and very effective). Wait 5 seconds from when the traps were initialy triggered(while madly wanding the defensive trapper). Charge back in and kill the monk(warrior should have been wanding someone the entire time to build adrenaline and/or inturupt a trapper).

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

There will be multiple traps laid at all times.

That depends on how effective the other team is at using your Oath Shot against you, and inturupting your traps by wanding you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

Try remembering where 6+ traps have been laided while you're running from a warrior, trying to heal party members, etc.

Firstly off it's laid, not laided; 'laided' is not a word.

Secondly, you've devoted two entire charactars solely to monk stomping, both of which aren't going to be very effective against a compitent team. The monk will only really need to heal himself, every decent team will be running some charactar with secondary condition removal(usualy draw conditions) and healing(usualy heal other or healing breeze). The damage the non-monks take on their team will be minimal, and healing breeze/heal other alone should cover the damage, while draw conditions is far more than enough to cover the conditions.

Lastly, there may not be 6+ traps, again it depends how effective the other team is at screwing up your Oath Shot, and inturupting you. You don't need to remember where all the traps are, the trapper will likely be trapping in one general area, easy enough to avoid. Or you team can just keep retreating in a circle, making the offensive trapper 100% useless. Or you can just trigger the traps, and have the support charactar use draw conditions, as the only one that will re-effect you is blind, which really isin't that harmful on a monk that's only really kiting and self heling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

this team will try to force the opposing team to fight at choke points. The team can always trap and force the opposing team into choke points. Would you rather run into a mess of traps or move to a choke point?

Umm, what's to stop the other team from wanding the trappers, 2 on each trapper? Not to mention making strafing Oath Shot even easier, since they're not moving it's extremely easy to just hang back and wand, and since they're doing nothing but wanding the trapper, it's really not going to be too hard to see who the ranger is targeting with Oath Shot, and that person to simply strafe and evade it.

If you mean trapping offensively to force them back into a choke point(which I think you might be...), you have to be kidding. If they're already retreating, what's to stop them from just retreating a bit more so they're not in a choke point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

do you remember exactly where the ranger laid his other 3 or 4 traps? If you're running or moving away, you aren't attacking or healing.

Usualy, yes. It's not that hard to remember.

Umm, most spells boonprots have cast in .25s really not that hard to heal and run. I haven't seen you mention about attacking non-monks(which incase you forgot, you didn't). So if you're a monk, and you're kiting a big bad warrior and have a trapper trying to get ya, you're not going to be attacking anway. Not to mention your damage will be minimal, it's only real effect would be inturupting a ranger, somthing that is also accomplished by using guardian and blocking that oath shot, or otherwise causing that oath shot not to hit you hence strafing or blocking the rangers sight line. Of course only a stupid trapper would Oath Shot a monk that has guardian on him, so it shouldn't matter in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

Your monk will run out of energy quickly if you're constantly removing conditions. Burning, poison, crippled, bleeding, blind, and deep wounds... That's alot of conditions to be removing from your entire team. Last time I checked, the condition removing skills don't recharge instantly either.

Wrong. Secondary condition removal, called draw conditions. On say a flashbot with Ether Prodigy it can be spammed endlessly. Two second recharge, the actual recycle isin't much longer at 2.25s. The opposing monk will only really need to be healing himself and kiting, absolutly nothing more.

Obviously they don't recharge instantly, and even if they did there's somthing called aftercast. The point is it's really easy to keep almost all the conditions off people, or if the other monk is running say mend ailment, those excess conditions are translated to healing. This effectively negates the 'burden' all your conditions are intended to cause.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

With conditions constantly being spread, the monk shouldn't have too much trouble with energy management. There will be more conditions being applied than can be removed by the enemy monk.

Wrong... Again. With all the conditions on one person, who's more of a 'backline' charactar the monk will have to move out of your protective traps for his energy.. Leaving him totaly exposed when he is must vunrable.

You'll likely be getting very little energy from ViM against a good team. Which was exactly Divineshadows's point about agressive condition removal. Hence an entirely wasted elite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

You won't be wanding the trappers constantly. Ohh no... you interrupted a trap. Remember both rangers will have Oath Shot. One of the trappers being wanded? Ok just use apply poison and start spreading poison around.

You will constantly be wanding the trappers, sorry. Inturupting traps brings down your entire offense and defense(save one warrior), I'd say that essentialy negates 2/3 of all your damage(ok save the poision, which can probably be maintainted on maybe 2-3 people at once, at 8 health per second per poisioned person. I think that's pretty healable, especialy if the guy who's also using draw conditions also has healing breeze. Even Heal Other used properly(no overheals) should be able to effectively negate the poision degen.

I'm not even going to retype the entire bit on Oath Shot again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

waste all your attack skills on spirits which will be instantly recharged using Oath Shot.

Umm ok, spirits are easily killed. You can kill ALL the spirits easily. Again, there's that whole bit on Oath Shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

If you're constantly running in the attempt to avoid the Oath Shot, you won't be attacking or healing. In addition, the more you run around, the greater the chance of you setting off a trap.

Do you have any clue what strafing is? Try using the Q and E keys.

Do you have any clue that oath shot can only be used once every twenty seconds? Meaning that about twenty seconds from the last time the trapper used it, they'll use it again. Wow, predictable. Maybe three seconds of strafing every twenty seconds really doesn't hurt the other team as much as you being totaly disabled for 10 seconds. Also you'll be wanding that trapper more than likely, so you'll see them using Oath Shot, and see who they're targeting, meaning only one person needs to strafe, and that person only needs to spend a minimal amount of time doing so.

Sure.. But you'll be inturupting most traps, and you'll note where they're placed(the ones that aren't inturupted). Not to mention as you've stated the offensive trapper ONLY GOES FOR THE MONK. Meaning there probably won't be too many traps for everyone else to worry about, especialy in the small area it requires to effectively strafe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

Again... Oath Shot. You run away from spirits, trappers trap the area and the team moves as a unit towards the opposing team. Oath Shot, lay spirits again. Lay the spirits originally in an open area, forcing the opposing team into choke points or other undesirable locations.

Read above, all the reasons why this doesn't work are posted above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

Just because you have some way of fighting against a specific team doesn't mean that team will allow you to fight that way. Simply put, make them play your game.

Please apply this to your build. You have absolutly no way to force them to do anything, except maybe force someone to remove conditions, wand the trappers, and make the monk kite. When all done together, doesn't help you one bit. They may be forced to play 'defensively' against you, but that doesn't help you one bit, since it makes you loose. This is exactly what Divineshadows was trying to point out(and did point out simply and effectively, you just didn't understand it...)

You asked for critique, you've got some that makes perfect sense and you refuse to even consider it makes sense. When you post an inherrently bad build don't excpect people to give it praise.

Some more critique: If they run a flashbot like many groups do, your warrior is basicaly taken out of the game due to you lacking sufficient condition removal.

suiraCLAW · May 10, 2006, 12:35 PM // 12:35

i talk about my build but because it's somewhat the same, I'll answer on the critque here.

Quote:

- avoid getting AoEd by traps
- remember the location of traps and avoid triggering them
- avoid fighting your team at choke points on maps
- move away from that ranger squatting next to you
- agressively remove conditions to completely mess over your monk's energy management
- wand your trappers as even through whirling they are not immune to interruption
- not leave nature's renewal up for more than 3 seconds; surge/burn/orb/strike are all good spells for getting rid of spirits quickly from range
- strafe your oath shots (enjoy getting your whole bar messed over)
- get out of the enemies spirit range when things are not going well ffs

- there are only 2 area's where you can actually avoid most traps (ascalon and yak's bend), the other maps have enough choke points we can use (avoiding those choke points will certainly weaken your ability to deal damage against us). Max 2 traps on each choke point of a map will hurt.
-trappers shouldn't trap at the place where somebody stands right at that moment because this would decrease th effects of the traps.
-the poison couvers the other conditions and can be reapply'ed much faster then you could remove.
-about strafing oath shots: we always use poisonous shortbows (+5 energy when pvp char) of fortitude...

Quote:

Ok, Oath Shot will allow the trapper to trap more, you're absolutly right. Twice as often on barbed trap, assuming your Oath Shot always hits. However with a raging axe warrior, I wouldn't be supprised if the monk uses guardian, giving around 40% chance to block, plus or minus a few %(due to attribs). So, your oath shot will be blocked a good bit, and your oath shot will also be EVADED. Since it has a 20 second recharge, any compitent player who's watching you even alittle, can pretty much anticipate when you'll use it, and just strafe to try and evade it, or move behind an object, causing you to fail to hit again, or repostition. Everytime your oath shot fails to hit, it's REALLY going to suck to have all your skills disabled for 10 seconds.

if you use oath shot, always use it on somebody who just casted a block/evade skill! (or if you're a noob in this game, tab around till you find a easier target and use oath shot after you fired a normal arrow on them with your shortbow)

Quote:

Support charactar uses draw conditions...

Quote:

Wrong. Secondary condition removal, called draw conditions

go to ta and count the teams that use it, you'll see that you can get 20 consec without fighting one.

Quote:

the trapper will likely be trapping in one general area

offcourse, we are uber players that know how to stack all traps in one place so that you have 0,0001% chance of hitting somebody!

Quote:

You will constantly be wanding the trappers, sorry

Go to ta and notice how much (=almost none) casters will keep wanding a ranger with wirling defense...

Quote:

They may be forced to play 'defensively' against you,

hint: spread degen

Quote:

If they run a flashbot like many groups do

again go to TA, and you won't find that that many groups run a flash bot.

BTW: I can agree that your monk should have a way to remove conditions. (in place of shields up)

Divineshadows · May 10, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

-about strafing oath shots: we always use poisonous shortbows (+5 energy when pvp char) of fortitude...

The shortbow range is even less than wanding range. This only makes it more obvious when the ranger (particularly the defensive trapper) is moving in for an oath shot. In addition, recurve bows are the most accurate (lower arc than shortbows). At least the poisonous and fortitude mods are the right mods. You are taking an already bad elite choice for TA (oath shot) and amplifying it with the wrong bow selection. gg. TA is not HA and I really do not understand this build at all as it seems to try mimic a cross between IWAY and VIMway and if you are doing that then the Mo/W should be taken out in favor of a N/Mo with order of pain and healing skills. Probably would replace one of the trappers with another warrior as well. When I see this build, I think of a monk player who overheals a lot when playing boon prot or does not know how to manage energy properly, is jealous of players that do know how to properly boon prot, decided to use a VIM healer instead of taking to the time to properly learn to boon prot, and evolved the rest of the build around that. Boon protection is by far the most flexible and resiliant monk build for TA due to the fast cast times and power healing with protection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

go to ta and count the teams that use it, you'll see that you can get 20 consec without fighting one.

I classify TA builds into three main groups: "monk-stomping", spike, and balanced shutdown. Balanced shutdown shuts down enough of the opposition build's plan to buy time to figure out exactly what skills and tactics are being employed and then proceeds to disect the opposition. Monk stomping is a build that attempts to stomp the opposing monk as quickly as possible and then targets the others. When monk stomp fails to stomp out the opposing monk, the monk stomp team's monk gets stomped because he has no support structure. When two monk stomp teams are matched against each other, the match is typically very quick and very messy. When two good balanced shutdown teams are matched against each other in TA, the match can easily last 5 to 10 minutes. The last type of TA build is spike and several spike builds have no monk whatsoever and spread their healing, condition and hex removal across their players (so that they can have 4 spikers). The vast majority of TA teams fall into the monk stomp category.

Yeah, the competition level in TA is sadly at an all time low I feel due to the Factions release and Alliance battles. Is this reason enough to run a build that can only own scrubs but fail miserably against good teams? Personally, I would much prefer to run a solid build with solid players communicating over vent or TS so that when we actually run into a good team we can win. When I do TA, I am much happier to face two good teams in the first 5 or 10 matches than to face no good teams in 20 matches. My logic has to do with the reasons I play in TA anymore:

- To evaluate the skill of a potential recruit looking to join my guild
- To have a current member of my guild learn a new character class and role different from what they normally run

So, you can see that neither of these goals really get accomplished by facing bad team after bad team. HA is a really bad place to try to evaluate player skill when considering if a given player is good enough at a given class/role for GvG. This leaves only unrated GvG matches and TA as the only places to test and unrated matches take too long to set up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Again go to TA, and you won't find that that many groups run a flash bot.

BTW: I can agree that your monk should have a way to remove conditions. (in place of shields up)

Nearly every good team in TA does run an air ele ffs (the other good teams that do not tend to be very hex heavy with several of those hexes focused on melee shutdown or use ritual lord/shadowsong). Several of the air eles you encounter, however, do not use blinding flash often enough and seem to think they are spikers and spam lightning orb and lightning strike all too often.

The Real Roy Keane · May 11, 2006, 12:46 PM // 12:46

I think that with just two trappers, this build will lack any real punch. ViM teams are HA only, I'm afraid.

JR · May 11, 2006, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

...go to ta and count the teams that use it, you'll see that you can get 20 consec without fighting one...

...Go to ta and notice how much (=almost none) casters will keep wanding a ranger with wirling defense....

...again go to TA, and you won't find that that many groups run a flash bot...

Which are you trying hardest to beat; good teams, or bad teams?. Personally I wouldn't enter a any match with a build that wasn't completely solid.

suiraCLAW · May 11, 2006, 03:20 PM // 15:20

-Did i ever said that i never play balances? In fact, I do play balances a lot more times then these "gimmick" builds.
-I play to win, but winning with a build that you made yourself is far more rewarding then winning with a build that you copy'ed for the most part.
-I get somewhat the same amount of consec's with these trapper builds as with balances builds, does that mean that the teams in ta are always bad when I go as gimmick and good as I use balance? Don't think so. In other words: I don't have a choise in wich teams in wand to beat.
-is every team without draw conditions/flashbot bad? (I conclude that out some of those reactions here).

Look: I just can't stand people that post comments like "your builds i crap because that skill/profession exists". I could understand that in some way if that skill/build was actually used by a lot of teams (= +10% of the teams or something like that), but it irritates me if that's not the case. I mean: every build can be countered in several ways (even your balance), in other words, saying that a build is crap because one of those hundreds skills can counter it is pretty useless for the thread starter. (or are all teams using a SS nec bad because there are hex breaker warriors?)

Quote:

You are taking an already bad elite choice for TA (oath shot) and amplifying it with the wrong bow selection. gg.

Do you have a list of skills that are good in HA/gvg but are bad in TA? Anyway I don't see why all builds with a specific elite are bad.

about bow types: my seconds skill slot is a poisonous recurve bow, but I find a shortbow better if I face a team that knows how to dodge arrows. Keep in mind that you are always in bow range anyway. (in other words, bow range doesn't matter).

Quote:

I think that with just two trappers, this build will lack any real punch.

-constant poison on everybody
-at least 2 people are crippled and bleeding
-people are set on fire pretty much (6 secs burn every 10 secs if done correctly)
-thumper/shock axe
-ways to stop healing in some ways (spirit)
-traps deal damage

Nazutul · May 11, 2006, 06:50 PM // 18:50

"Sounds like another statement that you are not playing to win and would just rather screw around or "have fun". If that is your goal and you wish to keep it that way, then fine. Personally though I enjoy winning and particularly when the win comes against a good team. That is where the fun for me comes from in this game. I was once told by a very well respected member on these forums from a very well respected guild to encourage quality and discourage crap. This is what I was trying to do by pointing out the multiple counters that exist to this build some of which have no counter-counter." <- Divineshadows

Look, man. This is the most presumptuous and asynine comment I've ever seen. I happen to know One Armed Scissor very well. He is a hell of a lot smarter than you seem to be and he "plays to win." I cannot count the numerous times last summer and fall that One Armed Scissor and I would get 20-30 consecutive wins in Team Arenas. So, just because you think you can insult someone who you don't even know because someone on this forum told you that your were good at Guild Wars is ridiculous. I would appreiciate it if you would assume that others on this forum are intelligent members of society. If you did that, perhaps you would be able to hold a intriguing discussion on tactics and strategy rather than simply making asynine posts like the one you just made.

Divineshadows · May 11, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazutul

This is the most presumptuous and asynine comment I've ever seen.

I cannot count the numerous times last summer and fall that One Armed Scissor and I would get 20-30 consecutive wins in Team Arenas.

I have learned through experience in TA that 20-30 consecutive wins in TA could mean quite a bit or it could mean absolutely nothing depending upon the number of good teams you faced during that stretch. Some examples include, a win streak of 33 in which my team faced no good teams, a win streak of 50 after which we all mapped out in which we faced only 3 good teams, and just last night a win streak of 11 after which we all mapped out in which we had 4 games against good teams (3 of them were against the same top 100 guild team). The way I see it, these were win streaks of 0, 3, and 4 respectively. Unfortunately, the odds of facing a good team in TA nowadays is 5-7% each match. Perhaps this explains why so many people design and run TA builds that are intended to beat bad teams faster but match up poorly against good teams.

My comment was not directed at One Arm Scissor. Though yeah, that particular paragraph was just bad on my part. I removed it. Thanks for calling me out on that one. I should have phrased it more like JR so elegantly did:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Which are you trying hardest to beat; good teams, or bad teams?. Personally I wouldn't enter any match with a build that wasn't completely solid.

suiraCLAW · May 13, 2006, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

intended to beat bad teams faster but match up poorly against good teams.

Why do you guys actually think that this build does poorly against good teams?

Let's talk about my build (http://gwshack.us/a1937) for a second because I couldn't test one armed siccor's one yet, but because it's somewhat the same i'll talk about it...

With my experience I can say these things:
-there is damage
-there is extreme melee hate, in toher words defense
-there is degen
-it works against balance
-it works against melee spikes
-"Monk bashing builds" get owned by it
-the trappers alone deal more damage then a (boon-prot)monk
-this build can outdamage 2 (boon-prot) monks

But:
-it can be countered by using draw conditions
-caster spike could a pain

So unless you're saying that all good teams have draw conditions, your post has no value (for me).

In place of keep saying that a build sucks, say why it's crap... (or ever better: say how to improve it)

BTW: I play to win, why do you guys damn think that I play to have fun? I'm just tired of keep doing nothing else then balance builds.

Zui · May 13, 2006, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

So unless you're saying that all good teams have draw conditions, your post has no value (for me).

Draw works wonders. I always have someone run it, and from what I've seen most good teams(around 90% from what I see) will have someone running it as well.

Solvi · May 17, 2006, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

In place of keep saying that a build sucks, say why it's crap... (or ever better: say how to improve it)

I think this last part about how to improve it is really good advice.

rii · May 17, 2006, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Which are you trying hardest to beat; good teams, or bad teams?. Personally I wouldn't enter a any match with a build that wasn't completely solid.

I thought you were there to gain as much faction as possible in as short a time as possible. At least, thats what I do... maybe you have UAU. In this case, considering the 'variable' nature of skill levels in TA, there isnt much wrong with dual trappers. I run it occasionally and its a quick one generally - either they all run into the traps and get owned, or they dont and you loose. Its fast, potentially devastating.. just dont ever try and convince me its a good build against good players. If you want a good build, run a shock axe, a flash turret, a boonprot and either a second warrior (sword or hammer) or a standard domination mesmer. Failing that, DUAL HAMMERS

jesh · Jun 01, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Look: I just can't stand people that post comments like "your builds i crap because that skill/profession exists". I could understand that in some way if that skill/build was actually used by a lot of teams (= +10% of the teams or something like that), but it irritates me if that's not the case. I mean: every build can be countered in several ways (even your balance), in other words, saying that a build is crap because one of those hundreds skills can counter it is pretty useless for the thread starter. (or are all teams using a SS nec bad because there are hex breaker warriors?)

I may not know the most in the world about TA or HA, but I know how to read. The criticism that you're getting is very valid for just the opposite reason that you're stating here. The tactics that are being suggested can be used by ANY type of team. Does a warrior have strafe keys? Does a ritualist? OMG but does a mesmer?? Of course they all do, just as easily as anyone can equip a wand or click on a target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Keep in mind that you are always in bow range anyway. (in other words, bow range doesn't matter).

Uh.. what? I wonder why everyone doesn't use short bows then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

-constant poison on everybody
-at least 2 people are crippled and bleeding
-people are set on fire pretty much (6 secs burn every 10 secs if done correctly)
-thumper/shock axe
-ways to stop healing in some ways (spirit)
-traps deal damage

-Condition removal. Or better yet, just ignore it. 8 DPS WOOOO!
-Condition removal.
-Condition removal.
-Protection.
-Kill them.
-Protection.

Condition removal isn't something only the top 3 guilds run, and geez the enemy monk had better know how to mitigate damage.

As for constructive advise, I would say to drop the trappers and ViM. Conditions are called conditions for a reason; they're conditional.