Curse

EaT Macros · Jun 05, 2006, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Are you going to sacrafice an elite skill slot to take a sub-par skill, just to beat R.Spike?

Wail of Doom is a very strong shutdown skill, not only for ranger spike but also warriors can be shut down very effectively.

JR · Jun 05, 2006, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by EaT Macros

Wail of Doom is a very strong shutdown skill, not only for ranger spike but also warriors can be shut down very effectively.

Except Warriors can still produce large amounts of pressure just by auto-attacking, and can still Frenzy in a casters face. Wail Of Doom takes up your elite slot which just has far too much competition on a Necromancer. Tainted Flesh, Offering Of Blood, Blood Is Power... All very strong elites that you can get far more mileage out of than Wail Of Doom.

I will agree that it is effective against Rangers and Assassins, as they really do need their skills to do damage. How seriously are you bothered about wasting an elite to shut down these two classes though? If Assassins become more popular in GvG I can maybe see it happening... untill then it wont be in any of my builds.

Byron · Jun 05, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

I don't think 3 man ranger spike is that much of a threat

I feel like I'm always coming back to the old iA ranger spike. It was a 3-man ranger spike, and they were constantly in the top 10. Not to mention that they held halls nearly everyday with the same ranger spike - the credit is in the practice of the spike and the strength of the team (certainly the monks).

Quote:

They start off with dual shot which isn't really that fast of an attack. So it wouldn't be hard to Blinding Flash one of the rangers while dual shot is activating.

R-spike does seem like an easy counter, but if they are agressive, as they should be, blind won't be too hard to clean up while the enemies are dropping (martyr, draw, etc). A better idea would be a team split, aegis, or shield's up. Aegis is even shaky since R-spikes likely have good enchant removal. Thats IMHO; I don't like ranger spike, but still see it as a viable build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EaT Macros

Wail of Doom is a very strong shutdown skill, not only for ranger spike but also warriors can be shut down very effectively.

I can see its use replacing Spiteful Spirit on a pure attack-hate build. Combined with shadow of fear, price of failure, etc, it could be a powerful hate build. However, relying on an enemy team to either: a) have attacking classes, or b) be unprepared for hex hate, is probably a bad idea. Against casters, it's next to useless, especially as an elite. And what's more, you'll have to spec a decent amount of attribs into soul reaping to make it effective(ie, 10 ranks to get a 15 second effect).

I might consider arcane echo-ing it for warrior shutdown...

Ensign · Jun 05, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

I don't think 3 man ranger spike is that much of a threat. They start off with dual shot which isn't really that fast of an attack. So it wouldn't be hard to Blinding Flash one of the rangers while dual shot is activating.

Dual Shot has a 1.2 second activation time. I do not know of a single player in the game who can react to that with a Blinding Flash. You can anticipate the spike (by watching for the order) to start the blind before the Dual Shot, to have it land just before or during it. It's pretty tricky to make that work though and it isn't very consistent.

The trouble with spike is not beating it when you know it's coming. It's beating it on the ladder. You simply cannot afford to run all the tools neccessary to give you a favorable matchup against spike. You have to play against pressure teams, strong mes effects, split strategies on a variety of maps. You prepare for the field, and when you run into a competent spike team on Imperial you just try your best in a terrible matchup.

It's just the way the ladder works. Spike is great for climbing because people can't wholly metagame against it, and you can stick the teams above you on a map where they can't play around it. Spike requires a minimal amount of skill to play effectively, it gets you fast games that are ideal for climbing, plus you get those favorable matchups against the best teams. I'd expect there to be a few spike teams in the playoffs every season because of it. I'd also expect those spike teams to get blown up in the first round of every playoff by a competent team, because when you know your opponent can only play spike, there's nothing stopping you from bringing all the anti-spike tools that you couldn't fit during the ladder season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EaT Macros

Wail of Doom is a very strong shutdown skill, not only for ranger spike but also warriors can be shut down very effectively.

Wail of Doom is a pain in the ass to hit on a warrior, due to a combination of 2/3 of a second pre-swing times that you have to hit, and kiting. It's not a skill that you're going to get to just fire at someone standing there attacking over and over again. Sometimes you'll catch someone mid-swing and black out their adrenaline - other times, you'll wail right after they swung, and they'll use an adrenal skill half a second later.

It's only any good against rangers, because their attacks are slow enough to hit with consistency. Hammers are close, but you need to be a ninja to slip it into a swing time under a second, without fast casting to shave off some change.

Peace,
-CxE

Falconer · Jun 08, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Dual Shot has a 1.2 second activation time. I do not know of a single player in the game who can react to that with a Blinding Flash. You can anticipate the spike (by watching for the order) to start the blind before the Dual Shot, to have it land just before or during it. It's pretty tricky to make that work though and it isn't very consistent.

I'm afraid I need to seriously disagree with this one on multiple fronts.

One... 1.2s skills are not impossible to interupt with .75s interupts. I used to catch 1s spells with .75s cry of frustration (back before it was buffed) and that wasn't with the aftercast interupt. (though those were sweet days for interupts w/ secondary effects... you might have been too late to interupt the spell.. but not too late to get the 'bad stuff'). Anyone used to .5s ranger interupts plus flight time shouldn't have any issue here.

Two I take issue with your 1.2s figure for the bow attack. Go grab a hornbow. Goto isle of the nameless. Stand right next to the target dummy (no flight time error). Activate troll unguent... don't do anything (to remove any aftercast times from consideration). Now watch the 10s troll unguent recharge timer and try to precisely have your bowshot hit the target when it recharges. You'll find that the time from standing rest to arrow hitting is very close to the firing animation time of the bow. (EG: the animation isn't short circuited with some period). Try out a shortbow for comparison.. to me it was noticably faster (though then again maybe I'm just seeing what I expect to see).

The closest I've found is that there's a 'grace' period in the firing animation when you chain one attack after another to activate a new skill without breaking animation. (makes a lot of sense, since you can't chain adrenal attacks like energy attacks... EG: you can only activate your next adrenal attack after the prior one hits). Similarly, I've seen something of a point of no return in the animation... where you'll finish the attack (basic or skilled) then your chained attack will execute using the full firing animation. A little bit of play on isle of the nameless should see this through.

Another point is I haven't seen spike groups bring an IAS skill in ages... By which you might arrive at the 1.2s figure assuming a fast bow and the IAS. But given the typical hornbow or longbow spike... you can count on a good 2s.

Blinding flash has a .75s cast time which makes it no different than the old cry of frustration. Also there's some very intricate timings involved, and some questions of game mechanics. EG: is the blind resolved when the arrow reaches the target or when it leaves the firing animation? (my gut instinct here is that it's checked on hit... like most hex effects.. and not on attack itself). But I've never had a buddy to test this with... I guess I could go blind a grawl crone, and pray that they use their signet while a flatbow is in the air...

Also a lot of groups now include extinguish/martyr as part of their spike. In which case the above is important... as you're effectively playing chicken with the opposing stripper. Who can get their effect off last but before the arrows slam home? And if I have a ranger blinded and weakened... and 'interupt' another one with blinding flash just as the spike is going... that's a good chance of taking 2 rangers out of the spike if playing against extinguish removal.

The final bit deals with many spike setups in general. You don't need to catch EVERY spike. So many posts I see argued about how they can't stop every single spike from build A using skill XYZ. Gee, hopefully you'll have a few skills spread out among your group... cry of frustration above is good for ripping the heart out of half of their spikes... you have a single copy of shields up... that can help a bit as well... Suddenly spikers are only managing a kill every 4th or 5th spike instead of nearly 3 or 4 per minute. The point is to trade casualties at a roughly equivalent rate... or unequivalent rate while gaining some other benefit of value.

Byron · Jun 08, 2006, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

One... 1.2s skills are not impossible to interupt with .75s interupts. I used to catch 1s spells with .75s cry of frustration (back before it was buffed) and that wasn't with the aftercast interupt.

I don't think impossiblity is the issue. It's "possible" to interrupt a .25s cast with a 1s interrupt. It is moreso a matter of reliability. For example, a CoF working against bloodspike makes a lot of sense, since a mesmer could take a second to sneeze and still pull off the interrupt. But a small margin for error is something that should be avoided, IMO.

Falconer · Jun 09, 2006, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I don't think impossiblity is the issue. It's "possible" to interrupt a .25s cast with a 1s interrupt. It is moreso a matter of reliability. For example, a CoF working against bloodspike makes a lot of sense, since a mesmer could take a second to sneeze and still pull off the interrupt. But a small margin for error is something that should be avoided, IMO.

And all this is just showing the difference between a top flight mesmer and an also ran. It's one of the clearest indications of player skill and experience that I can see. As I said above, I take issue with that 1.2s time given above, which means you're dealing with the more glacial pace of 2s+ for the ranger spike example (though 1.2s works great for a fast cast air figure). And some of this... a small margin of error should be avoided of course... but you use what tools are at your disposal!

For every individual spiker you take out of the spike... the spike has a much larger chance of failing. So lets say just like you're saying the crying man fails at his job. Are you saying the flashbot shouldn't attempt a reactive blind (with AT LEAST a half second of reaction time) to remove one ranger spiker to improve the odds of the spike failing?

This is just the basics... and many pure spike setups know this... and prepare for it with anti-disruption skills and items... ward of stability, mantra of concentration/resolve. Which means your defense needs to be a bit more complicated as well. But ward of stability has to be put up with a long casting time... disrupt that. Or as I pointed out above... ranger spikers timing in an extinguish or martyr into the spike to have as many spikers as possible clean when it matters.

So to me, a major mark of a good team is one which knows HOW it can disrupt the opposition from executing it's play book, and what to let by because you need your disruption for something more critical. Lets put this another way, every single play in a football teams playbook gains yards. It's the defenses (and the offenses in GW) job to do their best to stop the play from going off as planned.

Also I'm talking from personal experience in GvG here. Lets say you have a typical flashbot bar. What skills of yours are of use if you run against ranger spike. Heal party... not a lot of mass degen... not as usefull as the point healing monks can provide. Extinguish.. probably since they'll probably be inflicting a few party wide conditions. (cripple, maybe 1 or 2 might have poison, etc). Orb/strike... on ranger armor... it tickles only usefull as part of a spike. Enervating... nice to just bounce on rangers as convenient. Blinding flash... great for just shutting down a ranger in general (such as one interupting one of your guys)... but probably useless pre-cast against the spike, because they'll have a martyr/extinguish worked into their own spike. Hard rez... nice if they actually manage to drop someone (though might be rough with all the ranger interupts). What do you do with your flashbot/HP GvG bar in this situation?! I'd argue that trying to actively disrupt the spike with flash is one of the best things you can try and do with your limited options! It's an action I've found personally beneficial to keeping myself and others alive. Granted this is specific to ranger spike, but it's a clear example that certain characters can and should be played radically different depending on what they're up against.

Byron · Jun 09, 2006, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

What do you do with your flashbot/HP GvG bar in this situation?! I'd argue that trying to actively disrupt the spike with flash is one of the best things you can try and do with your limited options!

Granted with all entusiasm. I may have misunderstood the context - of course, as a flashbot, there is little you can do versus a ranger spike but try to stay out of LoS, and spam blinding flash. At the very least, it will be an inconvenience to remove. At the very best, it will fully prevent an enemy spiker from landing attacks.

What I meant to say is that it cannot be thought of as a counter to r-spike.