Curse

cataphract · May 17, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

/Sign

You're still erring away from Leteci's point. I was observing a HoH game earlier today in which 3 blood spike teams were competing which indicates that the game has become monotonous. Back in the day, air-spike was nered because of its overpowerment so under the same logic n-spike should be too. "3,2,1 spike" doesn't constitute 'skill', nor does 7 healers and protectors topping up eachothers healthbars.

My GW box: "It will always be your skill that earns your victory or defeat."

this is the whole point Leteci is making. as a matter of fact, a lot of my friends have been making the same point over the past few months. strangely enough - NONE of them have ever played iway, rspike, blood spike or build like that. those kind of builds require minimum skill and are nothing less than fame farming builds. what do you get with them? loads of rank 6, even rank 9 people who suffer from delusions of l33tness thinking they are good players because of their rank.

i'm rank 6 and i got it by monking in HA. tell me how can an iway rank9 be a better healer than me. i have no doubt that Leteci would pick me for his pug rather than an iway fame farmer. and if he asked whether we should take the iway fame farmer rank 9 as a second healer, i'd tell him to take Makosi, even though he's like rank 0 or whatever.

leteci and makosi, stay cool. cya in-game.

oh, i almost forgot: /signed

1mpr0vizE · May 17, 2006, 06:49 AM // 06:49

I agree with you Leteci, I would just like to add my humble opinion.
That is I think A-Net didnt nerfed exploit build a long time. Many exploit builds are out there. That why I think that A-Net new pollicy is not to nerf, but to make even more exploit builds, so one day soon you can gather with friends and pick someone elses exploit to play. There will be pointless to make new builds because they wont mach even close with those exploits. That way balanced build will be nerfed.

Concerning a spike, I dont play it, but I see it perfectly logical. Maybe most effective way to kill oponent is by suprising monks and make damage to single target in shortest time possible. What I dont like there is that A-Net havent tryed to nerf it not even a bit. One mass RoF would balance many things, mo matter of spells cost. Anyway, I hope those spirits will be understood by many and exploit builds will be less played. And I hope people will be creative in making builds again.

hf

JR · May 17, 2006, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Back in the day, air-spike was nered because of its overpowerment so under the same logic n-spike should be too. "3,2,1 spike" doesn't constitute 'skill'

That is a touch ridiculous.

Necro Spike is to old Air Spike what Air of Enchantment Smite is to old Renewal Smite; a very much weaker version, that may need a slight tweak. You can hardly say "Well X is a spike build, and Y spike build got nerfed, therefore so should X!". Old Air Spike was retarded, you could virtually spike three people at once.

And no; there isn't much skill involved when running spike, which is why it is largely a bad choice for a top tier guild in GvG. You can make it work for you by using a map like the Burning Isle, or Isle of Meditation, but it's still going to bite you in the ass against good teams.

Sadly as I have discussed before though; HA does encourage horrible gimmicky builds. It's that simple.

cataphract · May 17, 2006, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Old Air Spike was retarded, you could virtually spike three people at once.

only if they were dumb enough to stand close together. which, in most cases, they were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Sadly as I have discussed before though; HA does encourage horrible gimmicky builds. It's that simple.

true.

Mental Leteci · May 17, 2006, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Sadly as I have discussed before though; HA does encourage horrible gimmicky builds. It's that simple.

I know,but seems that ANet worries only about GvG. They did put HA in as well so they should give it some attention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of shadow

just realised what you post was actually saying about the spike you faced..
they spiked with SS, then with lifebane.. and your infuser wasn't healed in the TWO SECONDS between the spikes? if you cant heal up an infuser in 2 seconds you deserve to lose

QZ was up and 100 ritualist spirits as well. Look,you'll see what I mean when you face that kind of build. If you can't kill them fast enough,which you can't cause of the ritualist spirits as well,you will lose. If you keep killing spirits you're giving them energy. Build is hilarious... I mean,I still have no idea why did they put duplicate skills? If that's made for people who don't have Prophecies campaign wouldn't it be easier if they just included skills from Prophecies in Factions? Instead of putting Lifebane strike,they just had to include the skill in Factions campaign. Or now when they did it this way they could at least make it that you can't put both skills in your skillbar...

Thom · May 17, 2006, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Few notes:
1)Blood spike is easy to beat for any normal balanced team, ranger spike team or even (dare I say) Iway team. I perfect spike is never infusable. Infusing is only useful when you are otherwise interrupting.

2)I run blood spike builds for various purposes, but never as a tombs build. It is nice because with 4 skills and no elites you have a reasonable offense. Carrying more than that is a waste.

3)I like playing with doubles and their exist several non-gimmicky ways of using them. I was fiddling with a double slash sword build which was reasonably successful and is worthy of further review. It is hard to argue with two copies of the most basic sword attack. Ironically the repeat skill provides variety to a one build class. Adding a second copy of a marginally useful skill can help the game as well as providing sad gimmicks.

4)If you really want to complain about a spike build, complain about the spike build that beat EvIL, iQ, iGi and but a bunch of guys too young to compete in the tournement into the top 10 this season. I love DEER, God Milk and company, but ranger spike has proven to be largely unstoppable using only 3 spikers. "One, two, three, spike!" will always be with guild wars, but if you have complaints go after the spike build that could rightfully claim: "We are the meta game."

Mental Leteci · May 17, 2006, 08:27 AM // 08:27

You obviously didn't read my post. I am talking mainly about Necro Spike here. And no,you don't need anything to interrupt blood spike cause their spike isn't perfect. It is infusable with or without interrupts. Anyway you're still avoiding what I wrote. I'm not talking about regular spike build,I'm talking about a spike which can spike straight away after the 1st spike,get it? It's like you have a ranger spike and dual shot doesn't have recharge time. They should remove duplicate skills or make them to not work in the same skillbar.

Alazare · May 17, 2006, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of shadow

just realised what you post was actually saying about the spike you faced..
they spiked with SS, the with lifebane.. and you infuser wasn't healed in the TWO SECONDS between the spikes? if you cant heal up an infuser in 2 seconds you deserve to lose

Please dont write about things u dont know nothing about. Try playing something other than iway before u commnet kkthx.

RT spirits, QZ + natures and a lot of damage with the dual shadow strike is not so easy to infuze. U spend about 30 (qz) eng 4 the 2 infuzes u need 2 save your fellow player. WoH casts 1 second, recharges 4 so u use 1 on the infuzer, he infuzes again, u use HO on him so thats around 20 eng just 4 the infuzer. Now u have 2 heal the guy they spiked, but with what? Orison is 2 weak, ur 2 major healing skill are recharging and u cant use them because u need 2 heal the inf after the next spike so the infuzer uses his orison on the spiked player and thats another cca 7 eng. Channeling casts 4 seconds under natures, so u cant do anything inthat time because u need it 2 gain eng. the ranger has oath shot so he spamms those spirits like crazy, and ur warr has 2 go around killing them and the necros have 2 worry about 1 less damage dealer. They have union, shelter etc up as well, so they dont take much damage. The surger is of no use here because they gain eng from the spirits ur warr is killing. So u see why its OVERPOWERED. Its just a matter of time when the 2 monks will run out of eng and u will loose.

/signed

Zui · May 17, 2006, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

RT spirits, QZ + natures and a lot of damage with the dual shadow strike is not so easy to infuze.

Rit spirits do absolutly nothing to Infuse Health in any way, shape or form. Natures Renewal also does nothing to Infuse Health. QZ makes it cost 3 more energy. Obviously the only relavant spirit to Infuse Health is QZ, why even bring up the other ones saying with them it's "not so easy to infuze?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

spend about 30 (qz) eng 4 the 2 infuzes u need 2 save your fellow player.

26 energy on 2 infuses under QZ. Not 30.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

WoH casts 1 second, recharges 4 so u use 1 on the infuzer, he infuzes again, u use HO on him so thats around 20 eng just 4 the infuzer.

Why do you need to heal the Infuser for 380? Surely 1 Word of Healing + the Infusers Orison would just about cover all his life loss.

On a side note, Word of Healing is a 3/4 second cast spell, not a 1 second cast spell. It has a normal recharge of 4 seconds, but under QZ that is halved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

Now u have 2 heal the guy they spiked, but with what? Orison is 2 weak, ur 2 major healing skill are recharging and u cant use them because u need 2 heal the inf after the next spike so the infuzer uses his orison on the spiked player and thats another cca 7 eng.

Read above, you didn't need to use Heal Other. The recharge times of your spells are reduced. Figure somthing out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

Channeling casts 4 seconds under natures, so u cant do anything inthat time because u need it 2 gain eng.

Channeling has a 1 second cast time normaly. Under Natures Renewal, which doubles the time to cast enchantments and hexes, it would take 2 seconds to cast. Also, why are you so close to them that they count as "in the area." Since you really have little self-healing, why are you in such a vunrable postition?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

the ranger has oath shot so he spamms those spirits like crazy, and ur warr has 2 go around killing them and the necros have 2 worry about 1 less damage dealer.

You still build adrenaline, you can spike inbetween killing spirits. If you have QZ down when the spammer uses Oath Shot, it's really not hard to keep the spirits down almost constantly. Either way, without those spirits, the spike loses alot of it's power. They simply can't spike as often without QZ, they can't keep targets down without frozen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

They have union, shelter etc up as well, so they dont take much damage.

Kill them too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

The surger is of no use here because they gain eng from the spirits ur warr is killing.

Stick your Surger on a spirit spammer? Last time I checked you can't have both Soul Reaping and Expertise. That might hinder the spamming of the spirits?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

Its just a matter of time when the 2 monks will run out of eng and u will loose.

Most people run a 3 monk backline in HA, and for very good reason. Still if you're -1 monk, you can be +1 guy with inturupts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

Please dont write about things u dont know nothing about. Try playing something other than iway before u commnet kkthx.

Take your own advice. It's clear you have absolutly no understanding of what you're talking about. Blood Spikes also rarely bring NR, it's not that good for them, especialy since they're going to be using Aegis and such, which a 4s cast time on that really is like saying "please laugh, then laugh some more, then inturupt me when there's only a 1/2 second left".

For the record, I rarely play HA, and when I do I play to win(as in win in halls, not win 3 matches against incompitent teams). IWAY isin't designed to win, it's designed to win a few matches against bad teams, and win them quickly, then loose to a compitent team, and repeat. It's not about winning halls, it's about getting easy fame.

On another note, spiking with Lifebane Strike after Shadow Strike is absolutly retarded. Especialy since both will likely have at least 1 spell inturupted, and it gives the other team ample time to do damage and heal. Plus no energy from the kill, meaning your only source is natural regen/dying spirits, with an energy denied spammer... that's just about good game.

Just because a bad build may absolutly roll horrible teams doesn't mean it needs a nerf. A team rolling other teams of equal skill(assuming everyone is compitent, as in it can't be random-arena quality players fighting eachother) effortlessly, is overpowered, and probably does need a nerf.

darknicrofia · May 17, 2006, 02:12 PM // 14:12

personally this is what i think:

it doesn't take much to play a gimmicky spike build to rank 9, but it sure takes a hellot to CALL a spike to rank 9 aka God Milk, Jay Fung etc etc....

in order to get to rank 9 while calling, you must have a very keen perception and understanding of how to hold the HoH, there is no other way to rank 9 other than holding the halls alll day long.

in short, i agree playing a spiker takes relavtively no skill, but don't drag the callers into this, they deserve their rank 9's

Zui · May 17, 2006, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Letci

And no,you don't need anything to interrupt blood spike cause their spike isn't perfect. It is infusable with or without interrupts. Anyway you're still avoiding what I wrote. I'm not talking about regular spike build,I'm talking about a spike which can spike straight away after the 1st spike,get it?

Only if it's a very bad spike team is it infusable, which was Thom's point. You want to be able to beat good teams, not incredibly bad teams.

Inturupts are absolutly needed, against good spike teams, or balanced teams. They're also very helpful on Altar maps, as if you can't stop that other Ghostly from capping it's game over. Heck, they're even good against IWAY. Let's face it, inturupts help you no matter what, bring them.

The afterspike, with lifebane after shadowstrike the afterspike really isin't a huge issue. Vamp gaze afterwards is far better. Even with Gaze it really shouldn't kill anyone.

As for what you wrote, it simply proves you lack the understanding of Inturupt=less spike=less healing needed and less deaths for your team=less energy for the spike team=spike team eventualy looses due to less energy for healing.

The fact is if you're running a bad build, and doing so poorly you deserve to loose.

d a z z · May 17, 2006, 03:27 PM // 15:27

/signed

tombs is so repetative right now, i actually thought the additon of factions would shake up the meta-game, but obviously not. My guild had 2 runs last night, both which led to halls, we counted 6 bloodspikes, along with 4-5 iways, and dual smite builds. As an estimated guess, we met 3 at max, good old balanced builds. (we were balanced btw). So nerf/alter the skills, just for the sheer abuse of em, and bring back some good old fashioned balanced vs balanced.

Alazare · May 17, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37

@ Zui:

Dear Zui, u are a fag.

Just kidding, but here:
The RT spirits and natures dont directly effect the infuze, but they do need 2 be killed so u coulld do some damage 2 win. The natures effects the casting time of channeling, which i admit is indeed 2 seconds under the qz. As such they render the warr incapable of doing damage to the other team. Not all balanced teams can spike, and even if they do the necros cary healing hands which is cast in a mere half a second under qz.

The energy readings i posted were indeed a bir exaggerated, partly because i wanted 2 proove a point, and partly because i didnt really want to pull out a calculator. Still 26 eng 4 2 infuzes is quite a bit more than the usual 20 needed.

The word of healing is halved to 2 seconds indeed, its still not enough time 2 heal the infuzer inbetween the infuzes because the dual shadow spike is monotonous. U need 2 heal the infuzer with WoH and HO because he needs 2 be on full or close 2 full health 4 the next infuze. He should not use the orison because thats another cca 7 eng wasted. He needs all the eng he can get. because of the QZ the spikes are very close 2 each other, theres only a small pause of about 4 seconds inbetween spikes. Now thats only the 2 skills used. theres also the Vamp gaze. Thats why u cant leave ur infuzer on low health. A good spike team will kill him immediately if they see him on half health.

Channeling has indeed a 2 sec cast time. Its still a lot. U need 2 stand close 2 them because u need the eng. It does not matter where u stand, they will spike you even if ur behind a wall so the logical thing is that ull stand close so u can get eng. Theres no such thing as an INVAULNARABLE position.

We do play a 3 monk build, the prot is quite useless agains Nspike

The team we ran into had NR.

Lifebane and shadow is retarded indeed, but it works. It deals a huge amount of damage in a small amount of time. Even if 1 is indeed interupted, that does not make a big difference.

The build does not roll horrible teams, it holds the Halls. Its not a weak build, its an exploit.

lord of shadow · May 17, 2006, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

Please dont write about things u dont know nothing about. Try playing something other than iway before u commnet kkthx.

RT spirits, QZ + natures and a lot of damage with the dual shadow strike is not so easy to infuze. U spend about 30 (qz) eng 4 the 2 infuzes u need 2 save your fellow player. WoH casts 1 second, recharges 4 so u use 1 on the infuzer, he infuzes again, u use HO on him so thats around 20 eng just 4 the infuzer. Now u have 2 heal the guy they spiked, but with what? Orison is 2 weak, ur 2 major healing skill are recharging and u cant use them because u need 2 heal the inf after the next spike so the infuzer uses his orison on the spiked player and thats another cca 7 eng. Channeling casts 4 seconds under natures, so u cant do anything inthat time because u need it 2 gain eng. the ranger has oath shot so he spamms those spirits like crazy, and ur warr has 2 go around killing them and the necros have 2 worry about 1 less damage dealer. They have union, shelter etc up as well, so they dont take much damage. The surger is of no use here because they gain eng from the spirits ur warr is killing. So u see why its OVERPOWERED. Its just a matter of time when the 2 monks will run out of eng and u will loose.

/signed

Before insulting somebody you dont know, assuming i only play iway and then spouting several blatantly untrue statements you may want to bear some small things in mind:

Correct english has never hurt anybody- if you want people to listen to you please make use of it. This applies to:

Grammar
"Please dont write about things u dont know nothing about. "
The mistake made in this phrase is called a double negative, it is detrimental to your argument because if i "dont know nothing" about a subject i must therefore clearly know something (as opposed to nothing) which i belive is not the point you were hoping to get across.

Punctuation
If you are going to write long posts about something, whatever the subject matter may be, i would advise you in future to use paragraphs in order to make your writing more clear and easier to both read and understand.

Spelling
"infuze", "2", "u", "kkthx", "eng", ur"
"infuse", "to", "you" "ok thankyou", "energy", "your"
Correct spelling in your posts make people more likely to take you seriously. Incorrect spelling, however, can make posts seem childish and immature, something most would wish to avoid as it can be detrimental to your case. Misspelling key words (such as infuse) can unfortunately give the impression you have little knowledge of the subject you are discussing, this is made worse by the fact that logging in to guild wars would instantly provide you with the correct spelling. Putting emphasis on a word (by using capital letters) is especially unwise if that word is spelled incorrectly: "INVAULNARABLE" is by no means a correct spelling.

I have included an example of the correct and incorrect use of each in order to help with any further posts. I did not feel the need to rebut your various inaccurate assumptions as it seems somebody else already has.

So, in future, if you decide to insult me again, i suggest that you "get ur facts right", and ensure that the standard of english in your subsequent posts is significantly higher than that found here.

I believe an appropriate phrase to use here would be "ok, thankyou, goodbye."

Ehrenia · May 17, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

I agree that you should not be able to run 2 of the same skill on your skillbar. I disagree that it makes bloodspike hard to beat, if anything i think it makes it easier as they waste more energy not killing my team than before, leaving less for healing.

And whoever said prot is useless vs blood spike, I run 2 prot monks. Take a look at the new elites please.

At the moment nothing needs a good 'nerf' in my opinion since we run balanced, and nothing beats us frequently, its an odd mistake here and there, or almost with every single run, an error 7 or four.

Mental Leteci · May 17, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Zui,your post makes no sense at all. 1st of all if infuser heals himself under QZ he will lose his energy even faster.
And once again I will repeat,necro spike IS NOT a perfect spike and they always need a follow-up for spiking (such as vampiric gaze) so even if one gets interrupted there won't be such a difference,but in this case you don't need to interrupt at all,IT IS infusable without interrupts/fertile/whatever. Problem was that infuser ends without any energy and he needed to infuse twice per a spike. That's almost all of his energy after 1st spike. Just let me repeat my main point: Shadow strike - our infuser infuses,Lifebane strike - our infuser infuses. Next time they do that our infuser is out of energy. Before you all give me your smart advices 1st play against such build and then come here. Zui,no offense but with your thinking you shoudl be holding halls all day long,no? Because you had a counter to everything that Alazare said,it's not as easy as it looks like.
We all came to this: duplicate skills are hilarious. I don't know what Arena Net is planning with that. I think this is the worst move ANet made and I have no idea do they even care about HA anymore. - Actually I'm starting to think that developers from ANet are playing IWAY and Necro Spike.

Zui · May 17, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

The RT spirits and natures dont directly effect the infuze, but they do need 2 be killed so u coulld do some damage 2 win.

The Ritualist spirits do need to be killed so you can do damage to win, correct. Natures renewal has absolutely no correlation do actual damage, it deals with Enchantments and Hexes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

The natures effects the casting time of channeling, which i admit is indeed 2 seconds under the qz. As such they render the warr incapable of doing damage to the other team. Not all balanced teams can spike, and even if they do the necros cary healing hands which is cast in a mere half a second under qz.

I think you mean "NR" instead of QZ where I've bolded.

Stick energy denial on the guy spamming ritualist spirits(while still killing both ranger and rit spirits). Save a burn or somthing for a spike. Spike when they're spiking, thus forcing them to stop mid-spike to heal, or continue to spike and possibly loose a member, most gimmick spikes will continue to spike.

Every balanced build should be able to spike. Elementalists have a wide array of spells that can spike, mesmers can use somthing like energy burn or shatter enchant, warriors obviously have a wide array of damage dealing skills, rangers also have a fairly good amount of them. Assassins damage is also quite good, especialy spike wise. Plenty of ways to spike with a balance, and remember you can inflict deep wound with your warrior, which makes the spike even easier to pull off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

The word of healing is halved to 2 seconds indeed, its still not enough time 2 heal the infuzer inbetween the infuzes because the dual shadow spike is monotonous. U need 2 heal the infuzer with WoH and HO because he needs 2 be on full or close 2 full health 4 the next infuze. He should not use the orison because thats another cca 7 eng wasted.

After the initial spike, there is a .75s aftercast, then lifebane strike starts casting. I think it's possible to make it work, especialy since the spikes won't be absolutly perfect on the time the land(.25-.50s difference in the time the damage of spells is applied, due to human timing not being perfect).

Either way, playing reactively to a spike is just a bad practice. You want to be proactive. Inturupt them up the wazoo, distracting shot a few maybe(bring hero if you don't have a ranger), do damage to key charactars, such as a spirit spammer, do overall party damage to them and make them use heal party/area, then inturupt them while healing. Almost everything they're using is going to cast in 2 seconds or more, making it a prime target to inturupt. Keep energy denying a spirit spammer(or both if you're running 2 ed mesmers), you'll drasticaly cut the energy gain from spirits. Essentialy mess up the only reason their build works, and put them on the defensive. Once you do that you won't need to heal too many spikes, they'll be busy healing.

I also think you're approaching this far too reactively, the time inbetween the spikes is 2.75s, as long as you can keep one necro from casting, or somehow negate one source of damage(or you use bonds, which isn't going to work well with NR) you should be able to just have the WoH monk heal the spikes. One RoF on the target to be spiked(putting your prot monk into play) will let that target live. The only reason you'd really need to infuse is if the afterspike is with say dark pact, or vampiric gaze, in which case you'll need to heal them more than just once in that 1.75s period between the initial spike, and the afterspike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

because of the QZ the spikes are very close 2 each other, theres only a small pause of about 4 seconds inbetween spikes. Now thats only the 2 skills used. theres also the Vamp gaze. Thats why u cant leave ur infuzer on low health. A good spike team will kill him immediately if they see him on half health.

Alright, I was unaware that they were also using vamp gaze, and this changes what you'd do slightly. But let's say they do Shadow Strike then vamp gaze, as long as they survive the first shadow strikes, which isin't the problem. The vamp gazes are the actual challenge to stop 6x68 of pure life stealing, so that's essentialy 408 damage you need to heal for. I'd say one infuse+1 heal other should probably enough, if it's not double infuse+one heal other, then WoH+somthing else on the infuser. If they use their one true afterspike still on their main target(the one they first spiked) your infuser is in the clear for a short while, definently long enough to heal him back up so that he'd survive a round of of 6 vamp gazes targeted on him.

If they're going Shadow, Lifebane, Vamp on a target, just have the WoH concentrate on the infuser for the first spikes. He should be able to keep their health high enough to withstand the next spikes, then do the same thing said above for when they use Gaze. Again, disruption is key.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

Channeling has indeed a 2 sec cast time. Its still a lot. U need 2 stand close 2 them because u need the eng. It does not matter where u stand, they will spike you even if ur behind a wall so the logical thing is that ull stand close so u can get eng. Theres no such thing as an INVAULNARABLE position.

Right, there's no place they can't spike you as long as you're in their spell range. If you're outside of that range, you're completley safe, as they'd have to move from their postition to get to you, usualy through the rest of your team. Since the initial spike won't kill anyone with even a small disruption, staying just outside of the range will still allow you to heal anyone, even a warrior. The point is being right next to them(in spell range) as a very vunrable target is a bad idea, especaily since if they spike down your infuser, or your word of healing then throw up frozen, they'll likely get a few more kills on you. That can be gamebreaking.

Channeling IMO just isin't that great, as your goal is not to be where it's going to get you alot of energy. Somthing that I've played around with, especialy on the infuse monk is running Power Drain instead. Wonderful energy manament, and just happens to inturupt spells too. It's still just about as conditional as channeling though(but without the being an optimal target when using part).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

We do play a 3 monk build, the prot is quite useless agains Nspike

Reversal of Fortune is a truely great spell, even against shadow/lifeband strike.

Another thing that I've done sometimes is have the Prot monk bring infuse health, to infuse the infuser if need be. That again can be game-breaking, since with only one infuser(with him being the target) the afterspike is certainly going to drop him. With a backup infuse it's possible to keep him alive(plus it gives the prot monk somthing to do)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

The team we ran into had NR.

That's very rare from what I've seen, but hey guess it works, just means you'll have a really easy time making them pay for using Aegis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

Lifebane and shadow is retarded indeed, but it works. It deals a huge amount of damage in a small amount of time. Even if 1 is indeed interupted, that does not make a big difference.

1 inturupted or otherwise negated is the difference between a living target, and a dead target. That's a big difference IMO. Sure it does a pretty good amount of damage, in a short timeframe, and has a very nasty afterspike. That doesn't mean it's overpowered, look at rift, they run fast cast airspike, which is also has a very nasty afterspike, they run it extremely well, but you'll rarely see them make it to the top 5 on the ladder. Guilds like vOR that run bloodspike don't do very well either, certainly not as well as rift does. This has to do with player skill, as well as the build. Neither are unbeatable, even on a map like Burning Isle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alazare

The build does not roll horrible teams, it holds the Halls. Its not a weak build, its an exploit.

It's great if they've capped on an altar map, that's for sure. That's due to the healing of it(and how you essentialy have 6 1/2 monks, making it harder to shut them down), and the fact you have 2 dedicated spirit spammers to put up things for holding like Fertile Season.

But I must say it counts on facing other gimmick builds lacking inturupts and simply bad teams to actualy make it to halls.

Finaly this can be a huge drain on your monks energy, but you have to remember it's about an equal drain on theirs(barring spirits), the key to winning is making them heal, then eventualy shutting down the spirit spammers. You'll certainly loose if you fail to put them on the defensive, but if you do so you're almost guarnteed a win.

Zui · May 17, 2006, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

necro spike IS NOT a perfect spike and they always need a follow-up for spiking (such as vampiric gaze) so even if one gets interrupted there won't be such a difference,but in this case you don't need to interrupt at all,IT IS infusable without interrupts/fertile/whatever.

6 shadow strikes at 18 blood(16+awaken) will drop a target with 485 life. It's a fact. Without some way to negate at least some of that damage, the target will die. Maybe they have more health, maybe less, it all depends on their runes, armor, weapons and mods on the weapons. The fact is it can drop people without disruption. Thus making it uninfusable.

Ehrenia · May 17, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

1.One RoF on the target to be spiked(putting your prot monk into play) will let that target live.

2.Reversal of Fortune is a truely great spell, even against shadow/lifeband strike.

3.Another thing that I've done sometimes is have the Prot monk bring infuse health, to infuse the infuser if need be.

4.1 inturupted or otherwise negated is the difference between a living target, and a dead target. That's a big difference IMO. Sure it does a pretty good amount of damage, in a short timeframe, and has a very nasty afterspike.

Hahaha, points 1 and 2 first. Assuming you know who the target will be: 6 necros spiking, each doing 50 damage, and an extra 50 (life steal) if the player is below 50%. Lets assume a player has 500 health. 6 of these will do 450 damage, 3 are doing 100, and 3 are doing 50, simple maths. now say u negate 50 with RoF, thats then 3 doing 100 and 3 doing 50, STILL. RoF really owned blood spike there.

Point 3, wow waste of skill and space.

4. Similar maths to my first point to 1 and 2. you will only negate 50 damage with this, not 100. but of course 400 life stealing is following too.

makosi · May 17, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ehrenia

I agree that you should not be able to run 2 of the same skill on your skillbar. I disagree that it makes bloodspike hard to beat, if anything i think it makes it easier as they waste more energy not killing my team than before, leaving less for healing.

And whoever said prot is useless vs blood spike, I run 2 prot monks. Take a look at the new elites please.

At the moment nothing needs a good 'nerf' in my opinion since we run balanced, and nothing beats us frequently, its an odd mistake here and there, or almost with every single run, an error 7 or four.

The last paragraph of that quote is true. I respect your guild and many others that run balanced builds 'virtually' all of the time (some guilds experiment now and then). You obviously have a team of very attuned, focussed, willing and skilled players that i'm sure have developed themselves in to the successes they are now. The problem arises with people who are not as experienced and co-ordinated face these spikes and are put off/put down by PvP altogether because it seems futile. Then people adopt the "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" attitude and copy these builds and the monotony in HA begins and mushrooms in to a HoH with 3 blood spike teams competing (with some balanced builds thrown in).