Curse

EaT Macros · May 30, 2006, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Since every thread here turning in a Soul Reaping needs a nerf thread, I had the idea to make a dedicated topic about Soul Reaping triggering on dieing spirits.

Well, Soul Reaping with spirit spammers in the group is the best energy management in the game.

In HA you got at least 10 dieing spirits a minute, thats 100 energy per necro each minute. Which makes 1.67 energy per sec, 1 energy is 3 pips of regen, so they get 5(!) pips of regen EXTRA, without any exhaustion and a waste of elite spot like Ether Prodigy got...and then I'm only taking 10 dieing spirits a minute, most teams got more.

In my opinion, this is ridiciously overpowered. Killing the spirits gives them energy, and without killing the spirits you cant kill them. Since they have 2 spirit spammers, you gotta shut both of them down, which is hard and makes you can barely kill.

Does this need a nerf...it does imo..

Plz give your opinion about soul reaping working on spirits and hope anet reads it.

Klmpee · May 30, 2006, 03:52 PM // 15:52

nope. its fine.. bloodspike is a joke to beat. infusing it is easy if your players arnt over extended

soul reaping speaks for itself.. im gonna take x amount of energy when something dies.. nothing else to it. if they did nerf it, it would be retarded as soul reaping wouldnt be what it was disigned for.

luilui · May 30, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klmpee

nope. its fine.. bloodspike is a joke to beat. infusing it is easy if your players arnt over extended

soul reaping speaks for itself.. im gonna take x amount of energy when something dies.. nothing else to it. if they did nerf it, it would be retarded as soul reaping wouldnt be what it was disigned for.

B spike is not a joke to beat when they r holding hall and turn on defensive mode. With morale boost every 2 min i doubt u can beat a decent b-spike with a single team.

lambda the great · May 30, 2006, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Soulreaping is fine, it's just how necros get their energy, just like Eles and Energy Storage and Rangers with Expertise. Getting energy when Spirits are dieing is just like players dieing... Bspike is easy to beat all you need is a Infuser with fast reactions.

EaT Macros · May 30, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambda the great

Soulreaping is fine, it's just how necros get their energy, just like Eles and Energy Storage and Rangers with Expertise. Getting energy when Spirits are dieing is just like players dieing... Bspike is easy to beat all you need is a Infuser with fast reactions.

Beating it is not a problem in a 1 on 1, but if they're holding an altar they're overpowered.

Since when do spirits have a soul to reap........

JR · May 30, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

I would agree, Spirits should not fuel Soul Reaping. The FoC builds in the GWFC final rounds are fair testament to that.

suiraCLAW · May 30, 2006, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Using spirits spammers as energy mangement requires at least 1 spirits spammer + everybody that needs those energy needs to be necro primary. I don't see how that is overpowerd.

Keep in mind that those necro's are forced to drop attribute points in soul reaping - wich isn't that helpfull outside of the energy effect.

When people made B-spike they added a lot of holding power, so what? There are other builds wich can be a lot more effective in holding, but that doesn't mean that they need a nerf.

lishi · May 30, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Sadly Arena.net dont seem what nerf them since the season is aready started. and no balace update.

And yes blood spike have to be nerfed , they are more common then iway in the golden age.

95% of them are a joke to beat. the good one are really hard to beat or root out of Hoh

EaT Macros · May 30, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Keep in mind that those necro's are forced to drop attribute points in soul reaping - wich isn't that helpfull outside of the energy effect.

Omg...ofcourse they have to drop attribute points to get an attribute up....zomg

Every Necro I know is taking a few points soul reaping because its 1 of the best primary att in the game..

Divineshadows · May 30, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I would agree, Spirits should not fuel Soul Reaping. The FoC builds in the GWFC final rounds are fair testament to that.

Soul reaping should reward a team for killing their opponents or help reverse the tide when their own are being killed. It is a momentum attribute just like death magic. It should also trigger on minions dying (but only for the player who raised the minions). Why should a team be rewarded twice for a spirit by getting the spirit's effect and also obtaining energy when the spirit expires?

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Using spirits spammers as energy mangement requires at least 1 spirits spammer + everybody that needs those energy needs to be necro primary. I don't see how that is overpowerd.

First, the energy management requires no skill bar consumption on the part of the necromancers. Second, the spirits have many useful purposes aside from providing the necromancers energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Keep in mind that those necro's are forced to drop attribute points in soul reaping - wich isn't that helpfull outside of the energy effect.

Dropping 9 or 10 points into soul reaping is not that much of a sacrafice considering the necromancer specs into a single necro line (blood or curses) and a single monk line (healing or protection).

Quote:

Originally Posted by EaT Macros

Beating it is not a problem in a 1 on 1, but if they're holding an altar they're overpowered.

Since when do spirits have a soul to reap........

Agreed entirely. In a 1 on 1 fight, my guild takes the strategy of preventing the spirits from being layed while interrupting their spikes at the same time. Preventing spirits from being layed prevents the soul reaping trigger.

In Hall of Heroes, the worst case you can have is facing a blood spike team 1 on 1. They just body block the steps with necromancers to prevent your entrance and spam spirits from behind and out of your reach with no means for your team to disrupt. With fertile and symbiosis the health is high, while the ritualist spirits reduce damage and prevent adrenal gain. When a whole match of 10 minutes goes by and 6 N/Mo just spam monk prot and healing spells on the body-blockers with no attempts to kill their opposition and nobody on either team dies, you begin to realize just how broken soul reaping is.

icemonkey · May 30, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

The fix to soul reaping is already implemented in the game in the form of the assasin's primary attribute, critical strikes.

Have something like this

Soul reap level ---> Energy gain on death
1-5 ---> 2
6-9 ---> 4
10-13 ---> 6
14-16 ---> 8

would not ruin soul reap, still a great primary attribute for any caster, however its no longer an infinite energy combo combined with spirit spam. In regards to the GWFC..They had 3 spirit spammers, no amount of fixing would prevent that energy gain, only removing spirits as "souls" to reap. That build is a little rediculous however, but only in how heavily they invested into their spirit spamming.

IMO this is a little bit of a delicate issue, the game has worked so long with soul reap how it is, i think changing it to my suggestion is a good first step and then if its still a huge issue, move onto not getting energy from spirits

Aiiane · May 30, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Spirits give enough benefits as it is. There's no need for them to trigger soul reaping to make them worthwhile.

Soul reaping has its benefits for player deaths, and in PvE creature deaths. There's no need to make it trigger off spirits as well.

A 15 energy spirit should not generate both it's beneficial effect, *and* 54+ energy divided among the team.

Zui · May 30, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

You mean being able to give necros a near unexhaustable energy pool with spirits so that they can devote essentialy 15+ pips to healing and spiking? While at the same time getting the effects from those spirits, and energy from everyone they might kill? What could possibly be overpowered about that...

/end sarcasam

Quantum Nirvana · May 30, 2006, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

The fix to soul reaping is already implemented in the game in the form of the assasin's primary attribute, critical strikes.

Have something like this

Soul reap level ---> Energy gain on death
1-5 ---> 2
6-9 ---> 4
10-13 ---> 6
14-16 ---> 8

I'd like to see soul reaping stay the same as it is now, and just not trigger when a spirit dies. My reasoning behind this is the fact that in PVE this would severely hinder the benefit of soul reaping to a normal team. Even though all of this is being discussed with PVP in mind, let us not forget our PVE bothers and sisters.

It seems that the issue is not with soul reaping in general (yeah it sort of is), but more or less an exploitation of it. Nerf the exploitation if need be, but don't go nerfing an entire attribute. >_<

Mental Leteci · May 31, 2006, 12:38 AM // 00:38

/agreed /signed whatever...

If they put spirits and get the benefit from it,why would they need to get benefit from that spirit it someone kills it? It's win-win.

Dark Tykane · May 31, 2006, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Well if you nerf sould reaping even a little bit it will probably be pretty useless. And if that happens Anet will have every necromancer whinin about how they need a new primary and then they would have to completely rethink necromancers because if they listen to this bad argument they would have to listen to the necros too.

Zui · May 31, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Bad argument? Necromancers will still get energy for every single death - Except for spirits. This will not effect Necromancers in PvE. It will however severely limit gimmick builds with necomancers in PvP. Theese builds may not be that great to begin with, but currently with the right map(GvG)//victory conditions(HA) they're almost unbeatable. The GWFC is proof of this. Without spirit-powered energy, theese builds aren't nearly as powerful.

Fixing soul reaping will do absolutly to any other non-gimmick necromancer builds. This will be like the IWAY fix, getting rid of the overpoweredness, but still leaving the build viable - you just won't have near infinite energy to heal/spike.

lishi · May 31, 2006, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Tykane

Well if you nerf sould reaping even a little bit it will probably be pretty useless. And if that happens Anet will have every necromancer whinin about how they need a new primary and then they would have to completely rethink necromancers because if they listen to this bad argument they would have to listen to the necros too.

on a normal pvp game if the game is balanced there is a dead ever 20-30 second(ok now its 4.30 am for me , i might say something stupid but ...) that mean if you have 10+1 soul reaping(left over of a normal necro build) its more then 1 pipe of regen. Many class to obtain the same energy gain have to use a elite skill and invest attribute. the necro have only to invest attribute.

lishi · May 31, 2006, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

The fix to soul reaping is already implemented in the game in the form of the assasin's primary attribute, critical strikes.

Have something like this

Soul reap level ---> Energy gain on death
1-5 ---> 2
6-9 ---> 4
10-13 ---> 6
14-16 ---> 8

would not ruin soul reap, still a great primary attribute for any caster, however its no longer an infinite energy combo combined with spirit spam. In regards to the GWFC..They had 3 spirit spammers, no amount of fixing would prevent that energy gain, only removing spirits as "souls" to reap. That build is a little rediculous however, but only in how heavily they invested into their spirit spamming.

IMO this is a little bit of a delicate issue, the game has worked so long with soul reap how it is, i think changing it to my suggestion is a good first step and then if its still a huge issue, move onto not getting energy from spirits

that will punish the onest necro too

just make sure the spirit dont trigger soul reaping and we are fine

Schorny · May 31, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Why do we even need to discuss about this?

We all know that soulreaping as it is at the moment is an insane energy machine that nothing can compete with. 10,12,15 or more pips of energy regen are just not "balanced".

The obvious fix is: soulreaping shall no longer trigger when a spirit dies.

Is there any drawback with this fix?