Curse

Lady Callingwell · May 19, 2006, 08:13 AM // 08:13

On the e-management used, p-drain is really wonderfull, I love catching a mesmers diversion or surge and when compared to I-hex dont forget the 40 % recharge available through focus swapping which results in an actual benefit instead of the three ener acquired by a MoR triggering recharge.

I-hex vs drain enchant is easiely won by drain enchant when not taking hex removal benefit into acount.

Personally I can only be found in observer mode when guildies force me to but didnt notice evil using it yet, I just capped the skill and felt it's really good, if you can get it off upon an adrenal spike you take out the deep wound and a SS if present, that justifies the use allready imho.

While ppl state that WoH is more powerfull: there are three huge WoH drawbacks, firstly it cannot be used for self heal inhabiting split potential, seondly it requires high healing prayers input which is a bad thing on it's own with the good DF/prot skill around, thirdly it has a 0.75 sec cast time and while the same applies for blessed light; blessed light provides three benefits simulataneously.

Finally one last reply on the e-management to dansamy, don't forget the boon is off, spamming is just done with RoF and SoD requireing a low energy input, blessed light is used in situation where it's beneficial quickly saving you up to 4 energy when compared to a boon prot doing a condition + hex removal.

sir lockt · May 19, 2006, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Some nice points by lady: but still the boon is more flexible. Although it costs more energy, you can spread the condition, hex and support healing over different targets, while blessed light puts it all on one.

Strength of blessed light lies mostly in targets that are hexed and pressured. If not you have to rely on RoF and SoD only, or wasting a lot of energy on your elite.

Powerdrain is a strong skill, but with your background as a mesmer, you are playing much more offensive.

IMO if you need to find a proper casting target, you will waste some time on finding it, and cast it on the right moment. Although you are trained with it, you will lack some attention on your team which will result in less efficient healing.

In most arguments in favor or against some skills above certain requirements are assumed: hexes present, enchants (MoR) present, ppl casting, hexes, conditions and pressure present. If some of these assumptions arent present entire argument chains drops.

Boon is still the most flexible character around IMO, with some adaptions SS shouldnt be a problem as well. Strenght for a monk, and for any character is to be flexible, even against the most strange build. Its the main reason I dont wanny rely on hexes for e-management, or on enchants, or on certain damage/pressure to heal efficiently. When monking I always focus on my own strenghts (and of the team ofcourse) which are the only factors you can be sure about...

pah01 · May 19, 2006, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Well on the blessed light subject - now that I have played about 6-7 matches with a blessed light setup.

--------

Blessed light
Infuse health
Inspired Hex
Drain Enchanment
Reversal
Prot Spirit
Signet of Devotion
Gaurdian

14 Divine
9 Prot
10 Inspiration

---------

On Energy Managment - not that much of a problem - though against a melee heavy team it was a problem trying to find those enchants to drain. Depends on the opposition though normally when playing as a booner not having hexes to take off when I am using inspired doesnt hurt.

I am thinking of dropping drain enchant for hex breaker but with an extra skill I wonder how the energy will play out.

On spike saving I used reversal and/or infuse. Infuse is the counter to shadow shroud.

Well In my opinion there is a massive weakness here that boon prots dont have. I was much easier to hurt and bother than I was when I play a booner.

I had to cry for hex removal to get migraine of me because I cannot remove it from myself. As a booner I will probably not even remove that hex as I spam reversal and prot spirit - but blessed light becomes a 1 and 1/2 second cast under the migraine.

Migraine is crap against booners but It might become useful if non-booners become common again.

Sam

Patrograd · May 19, 2006, 10:47 AM // 10:47

I just think that for your elite skill to be conditional for best effect upon your ally being hexed and conditioned then you are basically setting yourself up to be strong against hex heavy, which is fine as far as it goes, as hex heavy is gaining in popularity atm.

But what happens when you are left facing dual surge, or air spike, or ranger spike or any of the other myriad of builds that dont heavily employ hexes and conditions - suddenly your elite skill isnt worth its spot on the bar and is considerably weaker than elites where you are in control of the conditional bonus like WoH or Healing Light

For me ladder play is about making a best guess as to what the other teams you may possibly face will be running, and building to counter that. While currently hex heavy is making a slight resurgence, it is still a minority of teams you will face in a typical session, and as both WoH and Healing Light work pretty well against hex heavy too it seems to me to be, based upon the current meta, a no-brainer. I'm not going to waste a monk elite on something I may well rarely get the full benefit of. Seems easier to build some hex/condition removal into non-monks to me if it is something you are seriously worried about

As for power drain, its a great skill for a monk, but needs some mesmer interrupting experience to be able to play to its full potential. Not for the beginner thats for sure, but when in the right hands its amongst the very best e-management there is

JR · May 19, 2006, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

I just think that for your elite skill to be conditional for best effect upon your ally being hexed and conditioned then you are basically setting yourself up to be strong against hex heavy, which is fine as far as it goes, as hex heavy is gaining in popularity atm.

But what happens when you are left facing dual surge, or air spike, or ranger spike or any of the other myriad of builds that dont heavily employ hexes and conditions - suddenly your elite skill isnt worth its spot on the bar and is considerably weaker than elites where you are in control of the conditional bonus like WoH or Healing Light

For me ladder play is about making a best guess as to what the other teams you may possibly face will be running, and building to counter that. While currently hex heavy is making a slight resurgence, it is still a minority of teams you will face in a typical session, and as both WoH and Healing Light work pretty well against hex heavy too it seems to me to be, based upon the current meta, a no-brainer. I'm not going to waste a monk elite on something I may well rarely get the full benefit of. Seems easier to build some hex/condition removal into non-monks to me if it is something you are seriously worried about

As for power drain, its a great skill for a monk, but needs some mesmer interrupting experience to be able to play to its full potential. Not for the beginner thats for sure, but when in the right hands its amongst the very best e-management there is

I would agree with this.

sir lockt · May 19, 2006, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

I just think that for your elite skill to be conditional for best effect upon your ally being hexed and conditioned then you are basically setting yourself up to be strong against hex heavy, which is fine as far as it goes, as hex heavy is gaining in popularity atm.

But what happens when you are left facing dual surge, or air spike, or ranger spike or any of the other myriad of builds that dont heavily employ hexes and conditions - suddenly your elite skill isnt worth its spot on the bar and is considerably weaker than elites where you are in control of the conditional bonus like WoH or Healing Light

For me ladder play is about making a best guess as to what the other teams you may possibly face will be running, and building to counter that. While currently hex heavy is making a slight resurgence, it is still a minority of teams you will face in a typical session, and as both WoH and Healing Light work pretty well against hex heavy too it seems to me to be, based upon the current meta, a no-brainer. I'm not going to waste a monk elite on something I may well rarely get the full benefit of. Seems easier to build some hex/condition removal into non-monks to me if it is something you are seriously worried about

As for power drain, its a great skill for a monk, but needs some mesmer interrupting experience to be able to play to its full potential. Not for the beginner thats for sure, but when in the right hands its amongst the very best e-management there is

/agree

Flexibility is the key...

on power drain you make a good comment, for a pure monk its difficult to apply, and you need a lot of experience with it to find the proper targets fast enough not to neglect your healing...

Lady Callingwell · May 19, 2006, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Well, normally p-drain is pretty easiely usable in 1-2 secs max. Just hit C and tab a proper number of times while swapping focus to catch the mesmer or ele around and the energy is all yours. Perhaps it's a bit tougher for ppl not sued to running mesmers but a small bit of experience uickly helps you using it mroe efficiently. Perhaps it's the being used to keeping multiple targets in view (cry of frustration, diversion, shatter enchant, remove hex, blackout and draw conditions are often part of my bar), however the tabbing is allready important when doing regular boon protting, I allways like to see hexes/surges and the like being cast so I can handle them.

The reason why I feel blessed light adds a lot is not straightforward that it's the most flexible build, it's mainly that it contains counters against those things that hurt a boon prot most: degen, hex stackers, shadow shroud spikes. Especially the latter (assuming adrenal spieks covered with SS) is wonderfully countered by a single blessed light, healing 160 health (due to deep wound) and pulling deep wound as well as SS or a cover hex what allows the SS to be stripped shortly after to let the booner do his job.

The main issue that I couldnt test yet was stopping lame spiking builds like ranger spike, however with a build we're running which is normally containing multiple distracting blows and cries of frustration this shouldnt be a problem.

Edit: And on the subject of building with tregards to what you'll expect to face, this is something everyone does, and I did notice that standard boon prot hate worked a lot less effective against the blessed light monk.

Phelann · May 19, 2006, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clinically Proven

I can think of two things straight away:

* Heal + Condition Removal + Hex Removal for 10 energy, single cast.

* Boon Prot vs. Shadow Shroud.

Hmmm, could be a really good skill to consider huh?

Sure, if energy wasn't a bitch and boon prots weren't more versatile in general.

ump · May 19, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Well, since this discussion seems to be mostly about Blessed Light, I might as well share some work that I have been doing with this skill. I haven't been doing much testing lately anyways since I've been spending most of my limited playing time either in PvE or in GvG with an established boon prot build rather than extensive testing.

In the past, our build was using one boon prot monk and a WoH/Infuse monk. (It's currently back at 2 boon prots). When I was infusing, I wasn't using WoH much (which means I was probably playing it wrong which is entirely possible). So the logical choice was to replace it with Blessed Light. I came up with this Divine Healing build.

Divine Favor: 11+1+1=13
Healing: 10+1=11
Inspiration: 10

1) Blessed Light (replaced Word of Healing)
2) Dwayna's Kiss
3) Infuse Health
4) Etheral Light (replaced Orison of Healing)
5) Healing Touch
6) Signet of Devotion (replaced Mend Condition)
7) Inspired Hex
8) Drain Enchantment

The other possibility, considering Blessed Light is in Divine Favor, is to go protection. I figured there was enough healing in divine and protection to make up for the loss of Divine Boon.

Divine: 11+1+1=13
Healing: 10+1=11
Protection: 8+1=9

1) Reversal of Fortune
2) Gift of Health
3) Blessed Light
4) Protective Spirit
5) Signet of Devotion
6) Mend Condition
7) Deny Hexes
8) Free (used to be Spirit Bond, but I never liked that skill)

I didn't test it much, but if you want inspiration, you can go 11,8,8,9. Then, you can fit in the usual Inspired Hex and Drain Enchantment in place of Deny Hexes and the spot formerly held by Spirit Bond.

Greedy Gus · May 19, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

For me ladder play is about making a best guess as to what the other teams you may possibly face will be running, and building to counter that. While currently hex heavy is making a slight resurgence, it is still a minority of teams you will face in a typical session, and as both WoH and Healing Light work pretty well against hex heavy too it seems to me to be, based upon the current meta, a no-brainer. I'm not going to waste a monk elite on something I may well rarely get the full benefit of. Seems easier to build some hex/condition removal into non-monks to me if it is something you are seriously worried about

Yup, this was exactly my point. I still don't really see a metagame reason for why all these people are putting their heads together to try and find a way to make a blessed light skillbar work, other than that they saw EvIL running it. And so far, basically all the builds people post look a lot like what EvIL ran.

I can see the logic behind ripping off a deep wound, a shadow shroud, etc. while healing. But you can also mend off deep wounds with a boon prot, and use an infuse, word, or even a modified gift of health boon prot to deal with shadow shroud. It just seems not so efficient when you're forced to move to devo sig and non-booned RoF for your spammables just to pack some 10e fairly useful elite.

sir lockt · May 20, 2006, 03:35 PM // 15:35

To greedy Gus:

I still dont understand your point on EvIL, on paper blessed light IS a good skill... why build looks like EvILs builds? every build need the same points, so you will end up with similar skills. Why not turning it around? EvIL is running our ideas... they are just darn good in running them.

I agree with you that boon prots can do exactly the same... and IMO they can do it better, more flexible, and under more pressure (the last one is really important). A good point you mention on the last sentence: you drop your hex remover and cond remover to get blessed light fired (e-management), so effectively you do the same, only less efficient.

BUT (there is always a but...) I learned to be open minded with new builds, (Speaking the most conservative booner around: still running OoB FTW!) so if you can show me on math its better, I will try it out...

Zeldawind · May 20, 2006, 05:22 PM // 17:22

one comment (its doesnt really have to much whit this topic but a comment made by someone that every build lokos a lot like EvILs build)

I got a very simple answer for this EvIL's build is extremely balanced and can handle a lot more then a very weird untested build can. So ppl who make builds like to keep it very balanced will easily look a lot like EvILs build.

Greedy Gus · May 20, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir lockt

To greedy Gus:

I still dont understand your point on EvIL, on paper blessed light IS a good skill...

Yet another thing I keep hearing, but it's never explained well. In your opinion, why is it good "on paper"? When do you want to toss someone a 170+pt heal and also get a hex or condition off them? Obviously you don't want that to be your only form of hex/condition removal, because it's so inefficient if they don't need the big heal. So it's not really saving you a bunch of skill slots either.

I understand the usefulness of big money heals like heal other and word. However, if you're running a heal other guy, it's pretty likely that you're powering it with elite energy management. And if you're using word, it's powered by it's own efficiency.

So blessed light doesn't fit either of those categories. For it to deserve a spot on it's bar, you really need it to actually be efficient and rip off conditions and hexes (that you actually care about removing) often while still needing that money heal. And I just don't see it happening in reality. The only conditions/hexes that are a problem when a person is being spiked right now are basically deep wound and shadow shroud. If you hit the deep with mend condition, you still get that 170+ heal, and cheaper. And as for shadow shroud, if you have ways to heal through it, then it's ignorable anyway.

Other than spikes, you may need a big heal against big pressure teams with hex/condition degen, where blessed light may be a nice option. However, you really don't see teams like that often, just because your e/mo with heal party can devastate them fairly easily. And really, I'd take the word healer here over the blessed light guy anyway, if he can toss a word twice as much as blessed light.

So no, I don't see how it's good on paper. But my definition of good is based in reality. So I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why it's good for GvG right now.

Patrograd · May 20, 2006, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Yeah, this is the thing. The person this is being cast on must, in order for you to get the value from it:

1) Have a hex, specifically a hex that actually needs to come off, and that hex must be uncovered
2) Have a condition, specifically a condition needs to come off, and that condition must be uncovered
3) They must be in need of a power heal (probably being beaten on by a warrior or two)

Now I am sure there are odd occasions in which this situation crops up, but not very often I shouldn't think, unless you're playing at a very low level. Unless the above situation occurs the skill just isnt actually doing anything all that useful, at least nothing that couldnt be done twice as well for the energy by something else.

maraxusofk · May 20, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Plain and simple, blessed light is like those "situational" cards in any card game. U dont wanna use something that works mainly when someone is using a certain something. Its great if u know what ur going up against like in HA but in gvg its best to be ultra flexible.

However, i can see blessed light working wit a 1 boon, 1 light monk backline. The boon would be the primary healer while the blessed light would be main support with its hex removal + e management, but this would put tooo much emphasis on the boon prot and any skilled guild would be able to pinpoint the reliance on the boon and take it out.

sir lockt · May 21, 2006, 09:46 AM // 09:46

For myself, I am a scepticus on the use of blessed light. A lot of reasons are mentioned below, and its just the reason I started this topic. Some of my guildies think its powerful, I agree its powerful (thats what I meant with "on paper" issue), but to situational (thats what I meant with "flexibility" in lower posts).

I have seen the battles of EvIL to look what kind of build Soul Wedding was running. Its indeed very similar, and wasnt to happy about it seeing it in action. As maraxusofk said they used it in combo with One Stars boon, which went fine, until One Star dropped: Soul Wedding or team members followed quickly.

When turned around and Soul Wedding dropped, One Star could at least maintain the situation until res.

The same I noticed while running a GvG (I was running Boon, while Lady (poster below of the build) was running BL). I had to work much more harder, but we managed (the teams we opposed wasnt good...so a bit of lucky there to). This was for me the reason to start this topic, together with the encountering of a 3-men monk backline, which suprised me a bit...

Red Locust · May 25, 2006, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by dansamy

You wouldn't have to go out of your way. You have other energy management opportunities and I. Enchant can still be used on other targets in addition to their monks. It's just nice to have that extra opportunity should it present itself in a way that won't suicide you.

That sounds good until you consider the fact that you're taking inspired enchant instead of another skill. And insp. enchant is total crap in nearly every case except stripping MoR, in which case you have to then wait an extra 20s for the energy. Not to mention that you'd have to either do some crazy overextending or wait forever in order to get a good shot at MoR. Drain enchant beats it anyday.

Quote:

He has a 5e spammable: RoF. And unless you can find something in DF that is suitable for a 5e spammable heal, then RoF'll have to do.

Mend condition would be a good idea. I don't know what the rest of that team build is since it wasn't mentioned, but in general you should have condition removal, and mend provides a nice heal without divine boon.

Anyways, I played around with blessed light and have to agree with what others already said. Blessed light is just too expensive, and as a result, conditional. You really need to build your monk around it and keep waiting for the opportune moment to use it, else it ends up being a waste. I'd definitely prefer an e-management elite that will complement the rest of your skillbar.

Ensign · May 25, 2006, 04:52 AM // 04:52

It should be understood that what top teams run is heavily metagamed against other top teams, for the most part. Most of the characters value flexibility over power, because when good teams clash there's usually a lot of movement and splitting and similar situations that you need to be prepared for. At the same time, that flexibility comes with a price, and the builds top teams run are usually a bit weaker in straight 8v8 fights than builds that want to fight you straight.

Now in many cases that ends up not mattering because a lot of their opponents are just bad and get blown up, and against top teams it's toolbox against toolbox. If you look at a match between a top team running a toolbox and, say, a second page team running a power 8v8 build, you'll see that the top team often has to win through movement and forcing splits that their opponent cannot deal with.

The upshot of this is that if you are trying to get into GvG I would strongly advise against copying a monk backline from a top team if you wanted to be successful. The success of those backlines relies upon excellent game knowledge and movement, they are very unforgiving in straight fights against anything but another toolbox-style build. If you took, say, EvIL's monks and just tried to play GvG you would get blown up by ranger spike and thumpers with regularity. Those are builds you often have to beat with movement and through capitalization upon opponent's mistakes, and until you're pretty familiar with GvG that just isn't going to happen for you.

Peace,
-CxE

shadex · May 28, 2006, 03:10 AM // 03:10

My backline basicly consists of a e/mo, 2 monks (1 healing, 1 protection) And a rit. I use the e/mo for both offensive and defensive abilitys, and let the monks do there thing. I found it wise to have the option to play defensively if need be. The rit's only reason for being there is that, other then a necro spike, it negates every other type of spike damage in the game. Which translates to "if the team is not mass hex/condition degen, or necro spike My team wont be able to get spiked for the majority of the match" Which to me is worth one character slot. That, and shadow song to piss off the warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Maybe someone can explain to me why blessed light is so good that you'd want to deal with these build issues in the first place. Why does it deserve the slot over a boon prot or a word healer?

Blessed light at 14 divinity is around a 150 hp heal, basicly a heal other. Puting that in a healing monk takes care of hex removal, condition removal all in one skill. If you throw that on a healing monk, without boon, you should be fine with energy. A BP monk is nice but its primarly used to negate warrior damage. The main thing on the BP monks is the speed of the cast, and the effects the spells have, where as a healing monk is just raw healing, with hex removal. Considering against a spike, BP's are nearly useless, and against pressure your looking at warriors on one target for there adrenaline spike, the healing monk seems a bit more viable for standard healing.

I think build issues is for someone who plans of having a typical BP build. I've found quite a few healing builds that do better at negating damage then A BP monk and use blessed light with about the same mana in general.

Mithie · Jun 06, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

With all the rit spammers all over the place, it's a wonder why no one runs a soul reaping N/Mo with life sheath, heal other, and heal party.

Sure, soul reaping + spirits have been nerfed, but it still beats whatever a Mo/Me's got in terms of energy management.