Curse

Irongate · Jun 15, 2006, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Mean I

omg he is right NERF DEGEN or maybe nerf noob wammos which wondering why the get pwned in ra by mesmer ?

What's a "wammos"?

Irongate · Jun 15, 2006, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLordOfBlah

Bet you could own em with 8 monks with SB.

Degen is not overpowered.

Nice build strategy!

makosi · Jun 15, 2006, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irongate

What's a "wammos"? Can you post in English please?

"Wammo" is a term for Warrior/Monks (W/Mo). Particularly those who use the premade paladin build or similar builds.

Sacho · Jun 15, 2006, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

Oh, I am not complaining because degen hexes beat IWAY. That is to be expected, and more power to the degen hexes that beat IWAY.

More like when you are a monk with 6 hexes on you including Migraine, getting degened to Hell, and you can do absolutely nothing because you get interrupted every time you try to use a skill. Can't heal yourself, can't heal your party (who all are also hexed up the wazoo and in the same boat), can't take the hexes off yourself or anyone else.

I suspect most of the players in this thread who says degen hexes are not overpowered have never played vs. a top tier degen hex team in Tombs.

Welcome, to being properly shut down. I guess you should consider countering Migraine next time.

I'm sorry for the flame, but I can't believe the level of stupidity of some of these posts. After every page of this thread, I had to think up of a new strategy how to explain why degen is not overpowered, but after Irongate's last posts, I don't think it's even worth the bother. I'll try though.

Any form of sustained damage can be converted into DPS. That is, damage per second. Degen is the most pure form of DPS - 1 degen always means 2 dps. You could also consider a warrior hitting you as degen - except it'd be a bit more spikey when he uses adrenal skills. As such, there's nothing special about degen in particular - except the fact that it's capped at -10 which quite sucks for it.

I'll just start by adressing a few points you didn't really make.

-10 degen on a whole team is so unfairly countered by heal party, it's almost cruel on the degenners

By the way, no decent team counts on regeneration buffs as their healing. You won't see much of troll unguent or healing breeze being used against degen - this is a huge misconception that exists in GW, for uh.....unknown reasons. Degen is damage. Regen is healing. There's nothing that say you have to counter degen with regen - especially considering that "regen" buffs like healing breeze aren't really more efficient than normal healing spells.

I really, really dislike your reply to Asplode, Irongate. I mean, wtf? Please explain why perfectly valid counters that are used by top guilds constantly suddenly are a bad strategy? You must be the new leet sauce uber awesome dude that has it all figured out.

People mentioning crap like Spellbreaker and Amity need to be shot.

Ok, I don't really have more to say about degen, so let's continue on hex spamming. You know, there's a little thing called ENERGY that hex spammers have, and it really runs out when you SPAM hexes. Counters to hexes are usually energy efficient, while degen hexes are only efficient when they run for a long duration( we're not talking about shutdown hexes here, I suppose. )

Onto shutdown hexes though - You'll notice how alot of them have really short timers and annoyingly high energy costs to spam, not to mention frustrating recharge times. You would have to trade several characters just to shut down one - great, what about the other 7 characters on the enemy team? Oops.....

Mr_T_bot · Jun 15, 2006, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Degen caps, one shot damage doesn't.

Dravyn · Jun 15, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Kalvam

The only real strengths i can see in the use of Degen is either pressure builds or the psychological effect. Simply using mathematics, Degen is astonishingly weak yet it still has a lot of uses and some even consider it overpowered.

Your health degen caps at -10 pips and each pip represents a health loss of 2 Health per Second. So basically you are taking 20 damage each second. Assuming you are at 480 Health when you bring your character into the arena you'll have a total of 24 seconds to do something about the degen. 24 Seconds to do a measly 480 damage, how can that be overpowered? A single warrior combo deals the same damage in roughly 4-5 hits (just an example). Hell, even the annoying Touch Rangers (due to their quantity) have more damage output (65 DPS).

But as i allready said, the degeneration is mostly a psychological weapon in my opinion. I've seen lots and lots of players simply freak out when their health starts to degen. All of a sudden they start to panic and do lots of crazy stuff, nothing of which will save them in the long run. Just relax and don't panic. In 24 Seconds you can do a lot of nasty things. 24 Seconds are quite a long time in the fast paced PVP Environment.

However, if you're simply relying on your damage to take the enemy out first, without wasting a thought on how to stay alive, then yes... degen is overpowering your poor build.

I don't know where you get your numbers, but elementalist burn does me 26 dmg per second, and takes 17 seconds to kill me at 446 hp. That's only one dmg source. But its not a hex, and its plague touchable.
Also redundant degen figures into the cap. You may be losing -10 tics, but you still have -20 tics to counter when the dot zerg comes.

Tainek · Jun 15, 2006, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

I don't know where you get your numbers, but elementalist burn does me 26 dmg per second, and takes 17 seconds to kill me at 446 hp. That's only one dmg source. But its not a hex, and its plague touchable.
Also redundant degen figures into the cap. You may be losing -10 tics, but you still have -20 tics to counter when the dot zerg comes.

Degen is Capped at no more than 20 damage a second, regardless of how many pips are on you, only 10 can take effect, this is Very well documented

CyberNigma · Jun 15, 2006, 12:49 PM // 12:49

lol, this thread seems to be almost the opposite of the previous 'nerf the lts helm' threads. the only difference is the sides have switched as far as crying goes, with a few still in the middle not wanting anything nerfed..

I just thought that was funny and wanted to share it :-)

Metanoia · Jun 15, 2006, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

I don't know where you get your numbers, but elementalist burn does me 26 dmg per second, and takes 17 seconds to kill me at 446 hp. That's only one dmg source. But its not a hex, and its plague touchable.
Also redundant degen figures into the cap.

Burning, the condition, is -7pips. That's 14hp per second. Where did you get your numbers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

You may be losing -10 tics, but you still have -20 tics to counter when the dot zerg comes.

It's been mentioned that regen IS NOT the counter to degen.
Surplus degen is completely irrelevant if you just use direct healing instead of regen.

Stop head-butting the brick wall and use the door like everyone else.

guppy · Jun 15, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

I think its fair to say that hex's are a lot more deadly in 4v4 than it is 8v8 since there are quite a few more counters and more people to provide counter skills, not to mention more than 1 monk.

Navaros · Jun 15, 2006, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sacho

Welcome, to being properly shut down. I guess you should consider countering Migraine next time.

Right...it would be great to be able to counter Migraine in the situation I described. However, due to hexes being overpowered and/or hex removals being underpowered, there is no viable way to do so in the situation I've described. Veil can be used on this situation some of the time, but just as often it won't work.

Certainly a team winning in such dire straits as that has had to expend far more skill and effort than the hex spamming team did, which speaks to unbalance in my view.

JR · Jun 15, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

Right...it would be great to be able to counter Migraine in the situation I described. However, due to hexes being overpowered and/or hex removals being underpowered, there is no viable way to do so in the situation I've described. Veil can be used on this situation some of the time, but just as often it won't work.

Certainly a team winning in such dire straits as that has had to expend far more skill and effort than the hex spamming team did, which speaks to unbalance in my view.

Except to put together a decent Hex overload build you sacrafice a lot of direct offense (such not being able to run dual Warriors), and a lot of utility (like not running a Flashbot).

It is swings and roundabouts, there are advantages and disadvantages to every type of build. None are 'overpowered'.

Dravyn · Jun 15, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

Degen is Capped at no more than 20 damage a second, regardless of how many pips are on you, only 10 can take effect, this is Very well documented

Well, may have been another dot on me..point is i got hexed, and it took seventeen seconds for me to die with no other hits, this being in Aspenwood. I have 446 hp, which equates to 26 hp per sec dmg. I specifically timed this because every time I set foot outside I would get dot zerged and be dead before I could get anywhere near my targets.

Dots are rapid-damage killers, I don't see why some of you continually belittle their capability and importance, unless you're all mesmers, then I can see why *cough*. And stop with the "regen is not counter" gibberish. Regen is there for a reason, to recover hp. does it really matter how your hp are being lost? And to that end, YES, you can stack far more than -10 pips on an opponent, even though -10 pips at a time can be calculated.

And again, for I don't know how many times, GvG is NOT the only pvp arena in the game. Just because things are balanced with full blown teams of ideal support in GvG does not mean they are balanced in TA, RA, Jade, Aspen, etc. Its rather ridiculous to say certain classes are just screwed unless they happen to be in a well made group in GvG.

Dzan · Jun 15, 2006, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Dravyn: either everyone who has ever played this game is wrong about how much 1 pip of degen equals...

...or your count was off.

Which is more likely?

Sientir · Jun 15, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Something I'd like to point out:

Holy Veil used to have a shorter recharge time. Everyone was using it. It was considered overpowered. It got increased in recharge time.

Hex Breaker used to have a shorter recharge time. See above. You didn't even have to have anything in domination, as far as I know, because it lasted way longer than the recharge.

I think the recharge for both of those was something around 5 seconds before they get an increase to the recharge.

Purge Signet does wonders against heavy degen, because degen is caused by conditions/hexes, and Purge Signet removes them. Though, I do consider Purge Signet to be best on a warrior. I don't know what the current climate is in RA, I've not been there recently. From what I have heard, however, is that Touch Rangers became quite popular, so that'd be why degen became popular, as it is the rock to Touch Rangers' scissors.

Finally, warriors are often a poor choice to bring into RA simply because so many people do. This causes there to be a large quantity of counters.

Tainek · Jun 15, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

Well, may have been another dot on me..point is i got hexed, and it took seventeen seconds for me to die with no other hits, this being in Aspenwood. I have 446 hp, which equates to 26 hp per sec dmg. I specifically timed this because every time I set foot outside I would get dot zerged and be dead before I could get anywhere near my targets.

Dots are rapid-damage killers, I don't see why some of you continually belittle their capability and importance, unless you're all mesmers, then I can see why *cough*. And stop with the "regen is not counter" gibberish. Regen is there for a reason, to recover hp. does it really matter how your hp are being lost? And to that end, YES, you can stack far more than -10 pips on an opponent, even though -10 pips at a time can be calculated.

And again, for I don't know how many times, GvG is NOT the only pvp arena in the game. Just because things are balanced with full blown teams of ideal support in GvG does not mean they are balanced in TA, RA, Jade, Aspen, etc. Its rather ridiculous to say certain classes are just screwed unless they happen to be in a well made group in GvG.

If you think the degen killed you at 26Dps you were wrong, there is no argument

The Reason it is a silly Idea to Counter with degen is very simple if you actually look at the facts:

Assuming you have 10 Pips of degen on you, Healing 10 pips for 10 seconds will keep you at the same health, so lets say you have 400 hp, your still on 400hp, in this situation its irrelevant

However, assuming you have 16 pips of degen, your still only taking 10 pips worth of damage, BUT, with 10 pips of regen added your still losing 6 pips of damage (16-10=6), so after 10 seconds, you are now 120 Hp Down (your regen prevented 80 damage)

Now Straight one pop heals are always effective vs degen, 200 points of straight healing is 200 points Regardless of the degen on you

your correct, vs just 10 pips regen is fine, but vs more straight heals are significantly more effective, theres just no argument

a warrior swinging his axe with no skills does more damage than 10 pips of degen, this is why it is belittled, but your correct, every single person on the forums who doesnt agree with you is a mesmer

www.guildwiki.org I suggest next time you look up the facts before you embarrass yourself

Metanoia · Jun 15, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

And stop with the "regen is not counter" gibberish.

The thing is... The most damage degen can do is 20 per second. Any surplus degen is wasted. When you start trying to use regen to counter it, you're wasting energy trying to counter all the useless surplus degen, too.

Ps. Don't confuse "degen", the actual pips of health degeneration, with hexes in general.

Edit: Poop, beaten to it.

Anyway, Perhaps you were dying to a Soul Barbs + Recurring Insecurity build. They can deal a lot of damage rather quickly.

guppy · Jun 15, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

And again, for I don't know how many times, GvG is NOT the only pvp arena in the game. Just because things are balanced with full blown teams of ideal support in GvG does not mean they are balanced in TA, RA, Jade, Aspen, etc. Its rather ridiculous to say certain classes are just screwed unless they happen to be in a well made group in GvG.

I do have to agree with that statement. It does very much seem like GvG holds far more balance than other forms of pvp. This being that it isn't so much a rock, paper, scissors situation where 1 form will (by technicality) always lose to another, but rather that there is strategy and far more counters availible "at any given moment" during the battle.

The Lich Ranger · Jun 15, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Degen is not a problem, im in DRZ and our gvg build set up to counter any type of degen thrown at us. If your having problems with degen, get a boon prot monk, with mend condition and inspired hex, and veil.

Chicken Ftw · Jun 15, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

-Walks into topic-

-Has flashbacks of all fifteen thousand of the retarded "OMFG NERF TOUCH RANGERZ PLOZ!!!11" topics-

-Walks out of topic, shaking his head sadly-

Please, people. Learn to play a little before making topics.