Curse

Reikai · Jun 09, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Well, basically my guild Emergency Exit [EXIT] has really just been playing Balanced adren spike for GvG, with E/Mo runner, all that stuff. The biggest problem with the build however, is that it is so predictable, and well, everyone knows how to deal with a balanced build. Another thing, is that most of us have gotten bored with balanced, and were searching for another build to call our own.

I'm sort of wondering if some of you more experienced GvG'ers could give me some tips on making a build? some general guidelines I should follow? or are there any?

Life Bringer · Jun 09, 2006, 01:03 PM // 13:03

The build you have been running is a very popular build because it is very effective. However if you are bored with it maybe you would like to try either a split or spike build.

When designing anybuild I think you need to think of how to deal with:

Spike
Warriors
Degen
Dual smite
offesnive and defensive split
How you are actually going to kill your opponent and keep your self alive besides your monks

fatboyslimerr · Jun 09, 2006, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Try to set a theme, even in a balanced build. Some examples:
1. Mass E-denial - fear me warriors, debilitating shot ranger, e-denial mesmer, wither necro
2. Hex Spam - Hex spamming mesmers and necros, possibly even warriors with hexes (how extreme do ya wanna get), basically you need to vastly out hex enemies hex removal ability
3. Condition Spam (I think this is who Evil lost to Black Widow but I can't remember now) - Tainted Necro, Apply Poison Ranger, Swords Warriors
4. A million various types of spike build, FoC, FC Air Spike, Obsidian Flame Spike, R-Spike, even seen a Rt-Spike (was crap imo)

You get the idea. If your getting bored of balanced, try to become a balanced with a speciality.

NightOwl · Jun 09, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

fatboy has the right of it, imo. Just being within the realm of balance doesn't mean that it's a totally straightforward team build. You're probably running with 2 warriors, 1 runner, perhaps 2 monks and a rit for defense. Try doing some funny business with it.

You have two open team slots. Perhaps a duo of water eles? Smiter and edenial? Taint and smite? Turn both of your warriors into energy denial machines, with dual adren boosters and Fear Me!, along side an edenial mes spamming mind wrack on everyone, and an interrupt ranger to help shut down the other teams' shutdown? Not saying that these are all great options, but they are options nevertheless, yet all could still be called a balanced build.

There are SO many options in how to run a balanced build. If you feel that people are too used to your slice of it, change it up a bit. It's pretty rare to see to duplicate balance teams on observer mode, pretty much every guild that runs it has it's own twists to it.

Iraqalypse Now · Jun 09, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

no, no, NO on the wither necro. Wither sucks badly, especially because enemies can just focus swap it off. Panic or Ether Lord are the skills you want to abuse to keep enemies energy bottomed out.

And instead of fear me warriors, maybe try running fear me assassins (maybe with death blossom), and maybe add dark fury for even more edenial. If hit 2 enemies with a death blossom with dark fury up, you get to use fear me twice if you are fast enough clicking it between the death blossom hits.

fatboyslimerr · Jun 09, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Lotta people don't like wither, but its not a bad skill. If they focus swap, then you degen their focus supply of energy too. I like wither/ether lording for an initial e-drain, then something else, not feeling very imaginative at the mo.
E-denial is a great balanced to try. I can give ya a brief list of what I'd use.

1. Fear Me Axe Shock Warrior
2. Fear Me Hammer or Sword Shock Warrior
3. E-Surge Mesmer (with mind wrack to punish focus swappers +spirit shackles and mind wrack to punish anyone who likes attacking as well as signet of weariness for AoE e-denial)
4. Another E-surge or partial e-denial with Expel Hexes {E} (should have shackwrack too as well as signet of weariness to aid first mesmer in AoE e-denial)
5. Standard Boon Prot (restore conditions or Mo Recall)
6. Another Boon Prot or Healer Monk (using dwaynas kiss after it got buffed to infinity)
7. Crippling Shot Ranger (who can spam debilitating shot)
8. Your choice of flag runner but I'd use another Crippling Shot Ranger who also has debilitating shot.

Thats just brief, and even then there are several ways to play this build. Just try a build, then try to play the same build totally differently and see what happens

JR · Jun 09, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

Lotta people don't like wither, but its not a bad skill. If they focus swap, then you degen their focus supply of energy too.

Er, what?

If they focus swap down, Wither ends with them having up to 17 energy left. Impressive...? Not really. Worth an Elite slot...? lol.

Iraqalypse Now · Jun 09, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Wither and Malaise end when your opponent's energy reaches zero. Malaise is OK because its not elite and it has a 2second recharge. Wither is unplayable because of the 10second recharge, and that most classes can just focus swap it off, and the rest have the option of armor swapping it off (kinda hard though, would be easier to bring a -5 en weapon).

Divineshadows · Jun 09, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Aside from weapon set switching, wither and malaise get worse the more energy denial you run, because it is more likely the opposition's energy will be closer to 0 anyway. For these skills to work best, the build should have no other form of energy denial. Still, smart players will counter wither and malaise with ease which makes them of questionable use.

DieInBasra · Jun 09, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

First off, decide how many warriors/melee characters you want to use, as that will decide what you're build is. If it's 1 you're a bit of a gimick, probably heavy degen or spike, so make sure you have at least three characters who can reliably spike with the warrior or enough degen to make sure theirs at least one half heath person, and have enough support to keep him relitively clean.

If it's two, you're useing mes effects to "shutdown" monks and let the warriors do their spike, and something like blackout/SS/knocklock to help it along even more, in which case two denial mesmers is a good choice. You'd probably want some sort of slowdown as a third character, unless you've got gale on a mesmer.

If it's three or more, you're pressure. This means you need to be able to keep your warriors on the target, and damaging. With that in mind, mobility is huge, and lots of snares, knockdowns and speed buffs are key. A large amount of hex removal and a midline conditions is pretty important. If you can keep your warriors clean and in their faces, you'll crack them eventually.

And that pretty much it for the front/midlines. Backlines are usually best kept at boon/woh, boon/boon, or boon/blessed, though the first and last are tricky, and the middle is expected. For flag runner, there isn't much that beats an air or water with a prodpowered HP, since it makes degen harder to use, and helps the monks.

Now, there is a fouth third type of build, I guess balanced, but alot of people confuse that with mes stuff. Just have 8 pretty self-sufficant characters and quite a few snares and you can use VoD/npc killing tactics, and otherwise just adjust to whatever your enemy is doing.

So yeah, i hope i actually gave you any tips instead of just rambling on and making a fool of myself

Lady Callingwell · Jun 09, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Just go through the list of things you should be able to handle, simply put as I presume you can fill in the types of spikes etc yourself:
* Spikes
* Pressure
* Splitting
* Hexstacking
* whatever else you can think off

As soon as you can handle this start adding offesnsive capabillities and util:
* Pressure if needed
* Spiking capabillities
* Flaggin'
* Snares
* If physical attackers are used try to think about how to keep em clean and snare a bit to disallow some kiting.
* once more whatever else you can think off

Than just pull something together, start playing and keep improving the build based upon evaluations.

Parkerbsb · Jun 10, 2006, 01:48 PM // 13:48

I was actually thinking about trying to come up with a metrix for builds when I was mowing my lawn a few days ago (yes it's that boring).

Anyways if you are looking at making a "balanced" build, what are your key focus points (someone mentioned a per minute basis which seems like a pretty solid basis - so here's some just randomly thrown out to start).

Baselines (based on IDEAL conditions)
Hex removal:25
Spikes: 8
Energy Drained: 95
Damage Given: Too lazy to figure out atm
Health Regained: see damage given
Snares: 22 (assumed hitting 2 targets with deep freeze, crip shot hitting every 5 sec).
Resurrects: Perm 1 / Sigs 3

... I'm on 4 hrs sleep here so lack of creativity is taking it's toll, but you get the point - does this even seem like a logical/methodical way to starting a build? Granted your real numbers will be much lower (runners running flags, mesmers overdraining etc...) but at least it dose provide some sort of metrix for where your build falls short. Any comments suggestions are more than welcome.

CAT · Jun 11, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

its hard to make a build, most everyone has done most everything. I would find a style of build you like and run it and understand it and change it to your liking. Chances are you wont be able to come up with something totally new thats going to work extremely well with people whos never done it before... IMO it is best to run a modded build

fatboyslimerr · Jun 12, 2006, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAT

IMO it is best to run a modded build

Thanks MTV for pimping my build

I think most new builds used by the pros, include teams more able to do effective splits, like 1 warrior 1 assassin 2 eles or something then the backline 2 monks 1 mesmer and a flag runner. Assassins are natural born splitters and are great for shadow step enemy base NPC attacks. This, and the increased understand of ritualists sometimes replaces flash bots or aegis and heal party spamming E/Mos. Observe GvGs, look at peoples ideas and strategies, try to learn from them (don't directly copy because you must at least understand their choices) and observe how they are countering the other team while still being affective.

At least, you must give everyone in your team, their builds that have all been thought out to work together e.g. not just saying be a W/E and be a E-surger etc, instead be like you take E-Surge, E-Burn and draw conditions to spam on our warriors so they can see what they're hitting

Also consider hex removal, dealing with melee (rangers and assassins too), reducing enemies healing or significantly out damaging their healing etc.

I just like sitting and looking through skills on priest of balthazar in my GH, its not very fun but its good to have discussions on TS bout skills and how they could be used.

good luck

Thom · Jun 12, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13

I think many people on this thread have things backwards. Don't start with a build, start with how you want to control the match. You want the other team reacting to you more than you want to be reacting to the other team. Here are the questions I'd go through in my build:
1)How do we plan on controlling the match?
2)What build allows us to most simply execute this strategy?
3)Are we prepared for typical counters?
4)What is each player expected to do?
5)Is each player built to work effectively in its roles?

Your style of play should dictate the build and your style of play should be the first thing you should adjust if you are having difficulties with an opponents build. Sometimes a build is gimp, but give me your typical balanced build and I could find 10 ways to play it. "Balanced" has the tools to beat most anything, the problem is normally execution.

JR · Jun 12, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Adding a bit to a point that Thom made; character direction is very important for a new player to fully understand their role. Splitting a character between offense/defense and a utility role is fine for more experienced players who can balance it, but I think for a new player they should have a farly well set task set to do.

Also a consideration is the actual players who will be taking these roles; a character build someone enjoys playing is probably one that they are/will get good at. Taking someone who loves to play Warrior and putting them on Monk probably isn't going to improve them that much, and vice versa.

Parkerbsb · Jun 12, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

I dunno if I was all that clear; but what I was trying to say is once you have a build compare it to a norm template and see where your build falls short.

I'm still not convinced of it myself, but trying to come up with a way to help some of the newer members of my guild get into build design.

Thom · Jun 12, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Parker, I am saying that your approach is somewhat backwards. Looking at your build as 64 independent skills which can be compared to some norm is just silly. How you build and how you play are suppose to go hand in hand. Understanding the gvg environment is the best way to improve one's ability to "build design". Your team really only needs one guy to build top down.

Parkerbsb · Jun 13, 2006, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Duly noted - thanks for setting me straight.

Phelann · Jun 13, 2006, 02:06 PM // 14:06

"I'm sort of wondering if some of you more experienced GvG'ers could give me some tips on making a build? some general guidelines I should follow? or are there any?"

As someone whose been there before: don't. My guild was unable to breach the top 50 for the longest time because we kept trying to come up with our own builds. Just copy a top 15 teams build (a BALANCED build), watch them play it, then do as they do. Its alot better for improving, you can never blame the build for your losses (if they can win with it why cant you?) and you are guaranteed to get a powerful build. You will also learn alot, as you play the build more you will notice more and more things it was made to do (for example, since my guild starting running Te's build we have gotten much better at pressuring then steamrolling).