Curse

shardfenix · Jun 20, 2006, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Since apostasy iway first came about and rolled my team into the ground, I have kept track of all the times I've been beaten by regular iway as opposed to apostasy iway.

Regular Iway record - 20 wins, 1 loss (95.2%)
Apostasy iway record - 10 wins, 42 losses (19.2%)

Notice that very few skills are changed between regular and apostasy iway. To make an apostasy iway, tainted, meteor shower/maelstrom, and gale are dropped, and apostasy, heal area, and heal party are added. This counts for all maps in Heroes' Ascent. This skill singlehandedly makes a build 5 times better than it would be otherwise. And you don't think it's broken...

When counting these matches, I play [hold]'s blood spike and [Rnub]'s ranger spike, both of which have some of the best players in HA, and a build that wins halls frequently (above average groups)

Starting now, I will count wins on different map types (relics vs altars vs annihilation and whether we fight a straight 1v1 or a 3-way) Stats will be posted next month.

Lando Griffen · Jun 20, 2006, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Keep in mind that without the spirit of energizing winds, OoA isn't very effective

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 20, 2006, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Hey guys, I barely ever lose to warrior spikes that don't use Eviscerate! I've got a pretty good record against trap teams without Dust Trap too. Not to mention my complete dominance against Ranger Spikes that don't use Dual Shot.

Just because a build is based around one skill doesn't make that build overpowered. If you can't beat IWAY consistently, try to improve your play instead of calling for a nerf.

art_ · Jun 20, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

I agree that OoA is retarded, but I think the reason why you lose to OoA more often than non OoA IWAYs is because more experienced IWAY teams normally bring it whereas less experienced teams do not.

DC_Ross_Dark · Jun 20, 2006, 05:31 AM // 05:31

OoA's range has to be nerfed, it's a complete joke. Although now days we can handle it pretty well, Before on the first relic map IWAY's simply trap the bridge and hold the OoA necro back, gg. The range is frankly retarded.

shardfenix · Jun 20, 2006, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by art_

I agree that OoA is retarded, but I think the reason why you lose to OoA more often than non OoA IWAYs is because more experienced IWAY teams normally bring it whereas less experienced teams do not.

All iway brings apostasy now. We fought a rank 4000+ guild today that has OoA. AFK dancers added ritualists and apostasy into their builds and now virtually all iway uses it, although seldom you can still find regular iway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC_Ross_Dark

OoA's range has to be nerfed, it's a complete joke. Although now days we can handle it pretty well, Before on the first relic map IWAY's simply trap the bridge and hold the OoA necro back, gg. The range is frankly retarded.

Have you seen my HoH map dark?

Alleji · Jun 20, 2006, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lando Griffen

Keep in mind that without the spirit of energizing winds, OoA isn't very effective

Yeah, because OoA necros don't have 10-12 points in SR

It needs a 30-second recharge.

shardfenix · Jun 20, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lando Griffen

Keep in mind that without the spirit of energizing winds, OoA isn't very effective

That's why most iways bring 2 of them, 1 on an oath trapper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

It needs a 30-second recharge.

/agreed

shardfenix · Jun 20, 2006, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Hey guys, I barely ever lose to warrior spikes that don't use Eviscerate! I've got a pretty good record against trap teams without Dust Trap too. Not to mention my complete dominance against Ranger Spikes that don't use Dual Shot.

Just because a build is based around one skill doesn't make that build overpowered. If you can't beat IWAY consistently, try to improve your play instead of calling for a nerf.

It's not that we can't beat iway. It's that we can't beat APOSTASY iway. We have no trouble with regular iway (or as my guildies call it, "tainted iway"). In fact, most of the regular iway losses are from my pug groups. Our regular guild team has probably only lost to regular iway 2-3 times, at least one being a 3-way.

Shifty Five Monk · Jun 20, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

I havent had that much of a problem with ooa iway lately, ive mostly been running spikes though, and some balance its it really hasnt beent hat bad idk...

General Typhus · Jun 20, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

LOL

Shard you're so nub, just don't run enchants. ;D

You've got to understand, you're running the same build so they're running a counter. The inclusion of a taint in standard iway means nothing against spike as there is little to no free fire physical damage. The heavy enchant personalities of ranger and blood spike is also very much in OoA's favor. Reliance on heavy enchanting has been the death of so many teams we've played lately.

In all honesty OoA is fine. We are yet to come close to losing to an OoA iway, but have lost almost lost one to a Taint.(out of about 120 matches in the past 3 days.) In fact, I think we've given elemental science a stroke. Record's still 13-0 buddy.

Guinea Fig · Jun 20, 2006, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Spike builds other than necro spike always have trouble against the new iway. The ritualist can buy the iway a lot of time... you will be hard pressed to kill them off while OoA with 4 warriors puts heavy pressure on your monks. On a relic run... I would say forget it. Ritualist spirits go up and they can either kill you or just run the relic.

I assume Shifty Five Monk, you have been running Necrospike which probably works as well as it used to (against iway at least). As a whole, most of us just find it annoying that iway has more defense now while being stronger than ever offensively.

Typhus is right... enchant based builds are destroyed by this new iway. Wards and hexes are pretty much needed to beat any of the more coordinated iways.

Ritualist and monks in general pretty much rely on enchants to function. Getting your boon/channeling or boon of creation stripped and your character won't be doing all that much. Maintainted enchants (bonder)... just forget about it. Prot spirit... which used to be great against iway... is now only so-so. Aegis still helps but certainly isn't half as useful as before. It only lessons the damage you take inbetween OoA.

For most teams... if the OoA is not stopped... your team will most likely die. A lot of the enchants I mentioned above were skills that used to be great against iway.. and now are often liabilities. Stopping the OoA is difficult because the necro is sitting all the way in the back on top of 10 traps. Decent iways will punish your team if you overextend a few players out to stop him. Meanwhile, 4 enchant stripping warriors are raging your face and dangerous spirits are going up. Relic runs give you the additional burden of a time limit with which you need to run a relic and stopping their running.

OoA + the nerf to necro spike brought iway back to life. As much as I disliked 100s of necrospikes in halls... I realized that they managed to control the iway population. Now, the 5 districts of iway teams are going to be reborn again. ANET being ANET (and the tourney coming up) will probably take 2 months to even look at the problem. They let old iway breed for nearly half a year so you can expect a lot more of the new OoA iway in the future. I swear that the staff spends its time playing W/R in AD1.

Yunas Ele · Jun 20, 2006, 02:00 PM // 14:00

OoA is a damn good skill, and theres no doubt about it. But I think if you look at other skills, you'll seee that theres a lot of enchantment hate added to factions. Take for example, tranquility. A lot of balance teams have now been running with Tranq/NR spammer instead of a prot monk. That hurts a lot too.

Also, AFK Dancers weren't the first to add a rit to OoA IWAY. The first person I saw do it was Shin Cross, back in one of the beta weekends (before AFK had even formed, I think...), but I'm not going to claim he made it since perhaps someone could of run it before, don't really know. But I guess thats irrelivant.

As for 30 second recharge on OoA, thats too harsh. 25 energy cost and 30 second recharge? What a crap skill. I think perhaps a 3 second cast (thats 6 under NR) would balance things out. Maybe a 10 second recharge too... but 30 seconds? Thats too harsh.

Outkast · Jun 20, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Yeah it was most likely Shin Cross that added the Ritualist but he did run a lot with our groups a lot before he raged the game.

Other things added were Fertile Season (packed mainly during blood spike fotm days, but useful for holding as well). Also EOE level 9-11 on a mask switch, which I credit a player called Kiyana with. This allowed 3 warriors to run sprint, 1 of which carried wild blow.

OOA was definately present in IWAY during the factions skills preview weekend with EW as well. I remember packing it on my ranger at the time.

Other mods include dual extinguish on the orders, with a full trapper (mainly order protection) or a choking gas ranger that MATH sometimes roll with.

Guinea Fig · Jun 20, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Well 10 second recharge is far too small to do anything.. That is like no change at all. Most iways only cast it every 10~ seconds or so anyway due to energy concerns + HP spamming. 3 second cast time... certainly helps but the necro has all the time in the world to cast while sitting in the back. He doesn't even have to be in natures half the time. You and I know that those half arsed changes would barely do anything.

I'm thinking maybe a combination of recharge + larger life loss for each enchant you take off. Right now the amount of life you lose for each enchant stripped is rather trivial at max curses. You OoA... strip 3/4 of the other team's enchants... healing breeze yourself... and you are as good as new. If it were more dangerous to use and could actually reliably kill the necro if the warriors mindlessly attacked... that would be a good change. Right now you can strip 8~ enchants and have your health mopped by a breeze and the HP (which the other necro is using anyway). If this change was made MAYBE your warriors might actually have to be selective about what they strip? Right now the warriors just click on any target with a yellow arrow pointing up.

I also feel that there should be a bigger penalty for stripping maintained enchants. Right now maintained enchants... well bonds... are utterly useless against OoA iway. They get stripped so fast that they are not worth the energy to recast. A bonder is weaker than an active prot against iway. I find it strange that one of the more useful anti-iway builds is now nearly useless against iway.

A bit more recharge + bigger penalty for removing enchants ftw. Removing 2-3 enchants on a focused target... thats what I think ANET meant the skill to be used for. Right now you can remove almost every useful enchant that the enemy is running after 2 rounds of OoA with minimal danger to the necro casting it.

I don't feel OoA is overpowered by itself in most builds. I just seems to synergize so well with IWAY that I can't help but feel its an iway skill. With a few minor concessions on the IWAY's part (tainted + energizing) they get an effect almost like old natures renewal. OoA is alright in dual smite... but it shines in IWAY. Considering just how important enchants were to ALMOST all anti-iway strategies... I find it disturbing. Hexes and wards are the only defenses left intact. And hexes don't exactly fare well with a NR spammer.

Xasew · Jun 20, 2006, 05:09 PM // 17:09

25 energy, 2 sec cast time, lasts only 6 seconds, requires extremely high Curses to be effective and even with 16 Curses you die after removing 8 Monk enchantments(98% with 7 enchantments btw...).
Overpowered? Hell no.
Works effectively with IWAY? Yes.

Loch · Jun 20, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

How about you kite the warriors during the 6 seconds OoA is up?

Lord Dark Genie · Jun 20, 2006, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Oh noes, I can't just tank 4 warriors anymore. I actually have to kite. OMG !!11

Kiting ? WTF what's that ? Channeling doesn't work if I have to move away from the warriors !!!

/sarcasm

HA is a joke, OoA is NOT broken.

Lando Griffen · Jun 20, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Hmm...maybe find a way to work OoA into your own build? I think it's a good skill, it's not really that iway is overpowered either, it's just that a lot of teams are underpowered because they aren't prepared. But I think OoA would be a great tool to take out some of these ridiculously annoying holding builds

You know, the ones that if you cap first, gg for you, and if they cap first, gg for them.

dbgtboy · Jun 20, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xasew

25 energy, 2 sec cast time, lasts only 6 seconds, requires extremely high Curses to be effective and even with 16 Curses you die after removing 8 Monk enchantments(98% with 7 enchantments btw...).
Overpowered? Hell no.
Works effectively with IWAY? Yes.

if you are running bonds and aegis is up, the nec puts up ooa he will get spiked down (2 strikes from each war = 8 enchantments stripped = dead necro), ive seen this happen a couple of times before, this skill is no way in hell overpowered, the health sac is enough as it is and if it was increased more then the skill would be totally worthless.