Curse

TheOneMephisto · Jun 26, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

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Originally Posted by Symbol

Actually it's not true that said prodigy ele has 10 pips of energy. Prodigy with initial cost and exhaustion factored in is under 5 pips IIRC. More importantly, said flashturret has other things to be doing with that energy. That character has a fair amount of 15E spells on their bar, it's a bit disingenuous to claim that all that regen is going towards blind. Orb, heal party, convert, etc etc are all substantial demands on that ele's time and energy that compete with blinding.

Orb is only used to help with adrenospikes. HP is used fairly often, but more often when running and they want to support their party or when enough people need topping off that it becomes worth it. Convert is only used on SB spikes (didn't even warrant a spot before SB spieks came along).

Flash is the only thing (besides maybe HP) that warrants spamming on a typical flashbots bar.

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 26, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Flashbots aren't more than a means to annoy warriors when dealing with simple pressure. As mentioned, the draws come fast enough that warriors aren't blind for more than a few seconds.

The only time a Flashbot becomes really 'worth it' is when he can hit the right few seconds. Having a blind hit just as you use you adrenal combo makes all the difference in the world. That 15 energy is well-spent if it prevents the other team from getting a kill. A good Flashbot will be able to prevent warrior spikes, which is an extremely powerful effect. Blinding Flash becomes much better in a 'clutch' situation where a few seconds decides whether a target lives or dies.

So bringing that comparison back on-topic, which would you rather have in a clutch situation? Bull's Strike or Crippling Dagger? IMHO, Knockdown is much more powerful for actually getting your team a kill. There aren't many situations where I'd rather have a target crippled for a few seconds than knocked down.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 27, 2006, 12:12 AM // 00:12

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Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Flashbots aren't more than a means to annoy warriors when dealing with simple pressure. As mentioned, the draws come fast enough that warriors aren't blind for more than a few seconds.

The only time a Flashbot becomes really 'worth it' is when he can hit the right few seconds. Having a blind hit just as you use you adrenal combo makes all the difference in the world. That 15 energy is well-spent if it prevents the other team from getting a kill. A good Flashbot will be able to prevent warrior spikes, which is an extremely powerful effect. Blinding Flash becomes much better in a 'clutch' situation where a few seconds decides whether a target lives or dies.

Agreed. Also, flashbots really shine in duels vs unsupported attackers.

SaintGreg · Jun 27, 2006, 03:46 AM // 03:46

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There aren't many situations where I'd rather have a target crippled for a few seconds than knocked down.

Generally, reliable sources of knockdown are expensive, and reliable sources of cripple (to which I'd lump slowdown hexes) are only modestly expensive. Crippling Dagger is no more reliable than bull's strike though, so the more powerful effect of knockdown makes bull's strike the moderately easy choice. Whether to build for use of gale or for shard storm I would say isn't such a given, since the galer will probably have to gimp his ether prodigy usage for a while to have his finger hard on the gale. However having your finger hard on gale is alot stronger than anything shard storm can do.

Byron · Jun 27, 2006, 04:56 AM // 04:56

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Originally Posted by kryshnysh

Your main objective as a warrior is to do damage, Bull's Strike lets you do that at the same time as KDing (and thus stopping kiting temporarily). CD doesn't and in fact lets your opponent get away even farther, costing you more time to catch up to them

QFT. I think that if crippling dagger were as useful as bull's strike, it would have gotten some play by now.

That said, the current metagame is rediculous with condition removal: draw, extinguish, mend condition, CoP, blessed light, etc. I don't think the cripple will last long enough to warrant bringing the skill at this juncture.

Seef II · Jun 27, 2006, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Crippling Dagger is pretty easy to strafe off, even at half range. And condition removal is generally far too strong at the moment for a cripple at that recharge to be played. Hence, crippling shot...

Symbol · Jun 27, 2006, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Ok there's a lot of good feedback here, I'm going to address points in no particular order.

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Originally Posted by kryshnysh

Are you counting exhaustion as a total loss? Because unlike most health effects, exhaustion is taken from the pool already lost (if possible), and (according to my limited tests and reading Ensign's posts) when it regenerates it gives you an extra pip of regenerating energy. Thus its 11 pips but the cost of ether prodigy is somewhere around 1 pip. Net gain, about 10 pips.

This is incorrect. You lose more than 1 pip effective from exhaustion even with 16 in estorage. With a more reasonable spec like 11, the effect is more pronounced.

With 11 in estorage you get some 5 pips (counting cast time and duration with a 20% enchant mod) discounting exhaustion, and that's further reduced by exhaustion buildup.

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The Flashbot/Flashturret is called that because Blinding Flash is often what they do to an exclusion of other skills. Sometimes they'll switch over to Heal Party, or use a random Draw Condition, but thats generally a smaller percentage of the time.

IMO this isn't true from my experience, and from how I've seen top guilds use their E/Mo's.

1) If spamming blinding flash was the all encompassing goal, people wouldn't choose eprodigy as emanagement. Dual attunements with a cover is much more efficient as far as flash spam goes.

2) You underestimate how much energy even "occasional"
heal parties and orbs take. If you use orb once every 15 seconds to assist in a spike, that's 3 pips right there. If you use heal party once every 20 seconds, that's more than another 2 Considering that you only have 8-9 pips to work with in the first place it isn't looking nearly as rosy as your original "10 pips" for blinding flash assessment, is it?

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So why ask which is better if you want to take both? Trying to limit to anti-kiting seems too situational to why you need the anti-kiting and the rest of your team. And there is definitely a limit to taking both, 8 skill slots.

I asked which is better as an anti-kite measure. What I didn't realize was that people valued bull's for other reasons. With that in mind...

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Do you usually run a W/A? Than the question should be:
Is Crippling Daggers or Bull's Strike better on a W/A? IMO, no. I don't see counterarguments to the arguments already made that change my mind on them.

Do you normally run a W/E or W/N? Then the question should be:
Is Crippling Daggers + Skill of Choice better than Shock/Plague Touch + Bull's Strike? IMO, again not usually. Depending on what the skill of choice is, there is a slight possibility though.

On an Assassin, and in a few possible builds (where conditions tend to be all over, such as disease, trappers, etc.), I would definitely give it hard thought. On a typical Warrior its likely to get only minimal consideration.

I think the crux of the matter is, whether crippling dagger is a sufficiently compelling reason to take Assassin secondary? IMO it's at least as good as death's charge.

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I don't consider 0.665 seconds and 1 second (plus minimal time for the daggers to fly there) to be equal. Both are vulnerable to this, but Crippling Daggers more so. Advantage Bull's Strike.

You should. It's like asking whether a 2 sec or 3 sec spell is easier to interrupt. Yeah, technically the 2 sec spell is _harder_, but anyone halfway competent should have 0 problems interrupting either.

.6 secs is a fair amount of time considering that you just have to stop moving.

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I think the proper comparison is 0 vs. 1.75. CD doesn't do appreciable damage, Bull's Strike gives you the damage of your attack plus damage plus what is basically a free KD (time cost-wise). If CD did the same damage as Bull's, then comparing the time to use them would be okay, but otherwise I don't agree with that comparison of times (valid in some ways, but not in most). Your main objective as a warrior is to do damage, Bull's Strike lets you do that at the same time as KDing (and thus stopping kiting temporarily). CD doesn't and in fact lets your opponent get away even farther, costing you more time to catch up to them (admittedly they are crippled at the end so its not hard, but before the cripple they ran for a second or so, you have to run up to a second to catch up to how far they ran - in addition to any distance between you when you started casting).

I don't think this is a fair comparison. Namely, you're assuming that you're already in melee range when you use bull's. If you're not, you have to weigh the time it takes to close with an uncrippled target vs the time it takes to close with a crippled target + activation time of CD, and that's not at all favorable to bull's in a number of situations.

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Originally Posted by Seef II

Crippling Dagger is pretty easy to strafe off, even at half range.

This requires that you be paying attention to the person chasing you. And if you are, neither CD or Bull's Strike is going to be effective.

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And condition removal is generally far too strong at the moment for a cripple at that recharge to be played. Hence, crippling shot...

Consider what you're saying. No ranger in existence is going to be able to take advantage of cripshot's recharge. A 5E cripshot (at best) every 3 secs on 3 pips? No way.

All in all, the consensus I'm getting is that the main reason crippling dagger doesn't see play in high end GvG because condition removal is too strong. Is that an accurate assessment?

That's a shame if it's true.

kryshnysh · Jun 28, 2006, 12:13 AM // 00:13

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Originally Posted by Symbol

This is incorrect. You lose more than 1 pip effective from exhaustion even with 16 in estorage. With a more reasonable spec like 11, the effect is more pronounced.

If I have 40/80 energy after casting a spell with exhaustion, the exhaustion then brings me down to 40/70, not 30/70. Thus exhaustion shouldn't count against your pips of regeneration unless you use ether prodigy unwisely since it does nothing to your actual energy, only to your cap. The loss is just due to the cast, and definitely less than 1 pip even at a spec of 11.

You can argue 9 pips instead of 10, but not "less than 5 pips."

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2) You underestimate how much energy even "occasional"
heal parties and orbs take. If you use orb once every 15 seconds to assist in a spike, that's 3 pips right there. If you use heal party once every 20 seconds, that's more than another 2 Considering that you only have 8-9 pips to work with in the first place it isn't looking nearly as rosy as your original "10 pips" for blinding flash assessment, is it?

On average, of my (approximately) 10 pips, I estimate 3-4 go to blinding flash, 2-3 go to heal party, and the rest split amongst the rest of my skills. There are plenty of periods where all I do is throw around blinding flash. Those periods are "often" in my opinion, and yes, they factor into those rough averages. And without those 10 pips, I'd never get blinding flash off enough, it would be pushed down below all the other utility I have to do. So yes, its the 10 pips that really matter.

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You should. It's like asking whether a 2 sec or 3 sec spell is easier to interrupt. Yeah, technically the 2 sec spell is _harder_, but anyone halfway competent should have 0 problems interrupting either.

All advantages for one skill or another are subjective as to how much of an advantage. If you're going to argue that an advantage shouldn't count... 5 second vs. 8 second recharge. But you can only use 5 energy every 7.5 seconds on a warrior due to 2 pips of regen. So the recharge advantage is null. I don't consider it null, but I do consider it minimal, imo significantly less important than the difference in cast/activation time with respect to avoiding the negative effect.

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I don't think this is a fair comparison. Namely, you're assuming that you're already in melee range when you use bull's. If you're not, you have to weigh the time it takes to close with an uncrippled target vs the time it takes to close with a crippled target + activation time of CD, and that's not at all favorable to bull's in a number of situations.

I consider range a different comparison. You've already given the advantage to CD for range and I agree more than entirely. In fact I think you may be underestimating it's importance.

For damage, Bull's Strike wins. My point about 0 seconds was the following.

Time after Bull's Strike until first appreciable hit: 0 seconds (Bull's Strike is an appreciable hit). Time after Crippling Dagger's until first appreciable damage: Aftercast (0.75s) + time to close distance to where they were when you started casting + time to close distance they made while you were casting (1s) + swing time (0.665 for axe/sword, no IAS). I ignored the second (as it could be effectively 0), and forgot the fourth, but assuming they are kiting, the third should be approximately 1 second. New comparison with the fourth part added in: 0 vs. 2.4 seconds.

Does this count for a lot? No. I tend to find the KD far more powerful, but you need several hits to kill generally, so the damage is quite important as it reduces the number of hits by one.

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Consider what you're saying. No ranger in existence is going to be able to take advantage of cripshot's recharge. A 5E cripshot (at best) every 3 secs on 3 pips? No way.

Actually, the use here is the "clutch" situations Squidget was talking about. If you need the anti-kite measure, you need it now and you probably need it often with all the draws flying around. You're not using it constantly, it more finds burst use. Recharge definitely matters in those clutch situations for conditions.

Even so, 5E cripshot on 3 pips is 5 seconds. 5E crippling daggers on 2 pips is 7.67 seconds. Advantage cripshot (not really; 16 expertise?! wow!).

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All in all, the consensus I'm getting is that the main reason crippling dagger doesn't see play in high end GvG because condition removal is too strong. Is that an accurate assessment?

Its not just condition removal (although that does matter a lot), its that KD is so powerful. And remember, all these arguments are why warriors don't bring it. Are there skills out there that fit the toolbox better that squeeze it off the bar of a warrior? How about for assassins? In both cases, I would say generally yes.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 28, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

If there was a ranger skill comparable to cripshot but with knockdown instead, I'm pretty sure that everyone would run it...

Symbol · Jun 28, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

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If I have 40/80 energy after casting a spell with exhaustion, the exhaustion then brings me down to 40/70, not 30/70. Thus exhaustion shouldn't count against your pips of regeneration unless you use ether prodigy unwisely since it does nothing to your actual energy, only to your cap. The loss is just due to the cast, and definitely less than 1 pip even at a spec of 11.

Problem is, when you say you have "x pips of regen" to work with, that's implictly a measure taken over some significant period of time. And as such exhaustion does count.

That ~5 pips you get from prodigy assumes you're going to be recasting as soon as it drops. That means, like it or not, exhaustion is a factor.

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On average, of my (approximately) 10 pips, I estimate 3-4 go to blinding flash, 2-3 go to heal party, and the rest split amongst the rest of my skills. There are plenty of periods where all I do is throw around blinding flash. Those periods are "often" in my opinion, and yes, they factor into those rough averages. And without those 10 pips, I'd never get blinding flash off enough, it would be pushed down below all the other utility I have to do. So yes, its the 10 pips that really matter.

But it's not just the 10 pips that matter. You've already admitted as much by saying that the other skills see significant play. If you're going to compare regen, you have to compare what the energy drains on each character are.

It's analagous to saying that warriors are extremely limited by 2 pips of energy without considering the fact that the demands on their energy pool are substantially less than most other characters.

IMO I find the argument that BF is more useful to ruin spikes than mitigate pressure a far more plausible one.

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I consider range a different comparison. You've already given the advantage to CD for range and I agree more than entirely. In fact I think you may be underestimating it's importance.

For damage, Bull's Strike wins. My point about 0 seconds was the following.

Time after Bull's Strike until first appreciable hit: 0 seconds (Bull's Strike is an appreciable hit). Time after Crippling Dagger's until first appreciable damage: Aftercast (0.75s) + time to close distance to where they were when you started casting + time to close distance they made while you were casting (1s) + swing time (0.665 for axe/sword, no IAS). I ignored the second (as it could be effectively 0), and forgot the fourth, but assuming they are kiting, the third should be approximately 1 second. New comparison with the fourth part added in: 0 vs. 2.4 seconds.

Does this count for a lot? No. I tend to find the KD far more powerful, but you need several hits to kill generally, so the damage is quite important as it reduces the number of hits by one.

Honestly, I don't think "time to first appreciable damage assuming that you're starting in melee" range is a particularly good metric, mostly because it's exceedingly narrow. I'd lump this under activation time, in which I've already given bull's the advantage.

Once you start talking about damage you might as well go all the way and talk about "how much extra damage will each skill get you under various circumstances", which is a really a conglomeration of the various factors we've been talking about here.

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All advantages for one skill or another are subjective as to how much of an advantage. If you're going to argue that an advantage shouldn't count... 5 second vs. 8 second recharge. But you can only use 5 energy every 7.5 seconds on a warrior due to 2 pips of regen. So the recharge advantage is null. I don't consider it null, but I do consider it minimal, imo significantly less important than the difference in cast/activation time with respect to avoiding the negative effect.

A small nit, you can use more than 2 pips of regen if you use zealous. Anyway I fully agree that the recharge difference is not significant, the only real use is if you need to quickly reapply the cripple for some reason. But likewise the difference in activation times as far as _avoiding_ the effect entirely is also neglible.

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Actually, the use here is the "clutch" situations Squidget was talking about. If you need the anti-kite measure, you need it now and you probably need it often with all the draws flying around. You're not using it constantly, it more finds burst use. Recharge definitely matters in those clutch situations for conditions.

That's fair enough, though that same argument could be used for CD vs BS recharge.

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Even so, 5E cripshot on 3 pips is 5 seconds. 5E crippling daggers on 2 pips is 7.67 seconds. Advantage cripshot (not really; 16 expertise?! wow!).

I think there'd be something seriously wrong if cripshot with 16 expertise couldn't outperfom crip dagger.

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Its not just condition removal (although that does matter a lot), its that KD is so powerful.

I think in some sense the "extra" effect of a KD is orthogonal to the issue of movement control. IMO if the cripple stays on for an appreciable amount of time there's no question that CD is a fair bit better at anti-kiting (and movement control in general) than bull's. That's sufficiently compelling to at least consider going W/A, even if you have bull's on your bar.

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Are there skills out there that fit the toolbox better that squeeze it off the bar of a warrior? How about for assassins? In both cases, I would say generally yes.

I find this a bit puzzling. If condition removal is so strong, there's no reason to take CD or caltrops on an assassin at all. If it isn't then I think there's a reasonable argument to go W/A with crippling also, depending on build.

Although I'm starting to think that CD might more generally useful in TA where condition removal is less prevalent and (as a warrior) you spend more time dealing with being shutdown and/or dealing with block/evade on average.

kryshnysh · Jun 28, 2006, 02:51 AM // 02:51

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Originally Posted by Symbol

Problem is, when you say you have "x pips of regen" to work with, that's implictly a measure taken over some significant period of time. And as such exhaustion does count.

That ~5 pips you get from prodigy assumes you're going to be recasting as soon as it drops. That means, like it or not, exhaustion is a factor.

Please explain your math. If you just have Ether Prodigy causing exhaustion, you can get an average of 7-8 pips permanently without exhaustion ever growing just by budgeting yourself properly. Doing worse is mismanagement.

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IMO I find the argument that BF is more useful to ruin spikes than mitigate pressure a far more plausible one.

Please don't put implications where they aren't. The only reason I bring a primary elementalist in the first place is for Ether Prodigy (I use Blinding Flash more often, but I actually bring it mostly for the Heal Party flexibility tbh).

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I think in some sense the "extra" effect of a KD is orthogonal to the issue of movement control.

I agree, in "some sense". That's why I posed my alternate questions to yours. You can't compare solely as movement control and get anywhere useful. Comparing to Bull's Strike already fits you into a specific set of builds,warriors using Bull's Strike. Anywhere else seems pretty ridiculous to try comparing without a reasonable build to go from.

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I find this a bit puzzling. If condition removal is so strong, there's no reason to take CD or caltrops on an assassin at all. If it isn't then I think there's a reasonable argument to go W/A with crippling also, depending on build.

At all? So an assassin that is meant as a base ganker has no use for Caltrops (or Crippling Dagger)? There are cases where in a build it might be useful to have a cripple on an assassin and not on a warrior. Base ganking assassins springs to mind. Given the cost, I'd probably have to play around between caltrops and Crippling Dagger.

Skills compared in one build aren't necessarily equivalently weighted in another build.

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 28, 2006, 03:07 AM // 03:07

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Originally Posted by kryshnysh

At all? So an assassin that is meant as a base ganker has no use for Caltrops (or Crippling Dagger)? There are cases where in a build it might be useful to have a cripple on an assassin and not on a warrior. Base ganking assassins springs to mind. Given the cost, I'd probably have to play around between caltrops and Crippling Dagger.

Skills compared in one build aren't necessarily equivalently weighted in another build.

Very true, and it's the same reason why some people run Cripshot flagrunners. In 8v8 their cripple is a nice trick and situationally handy, but it really shines when he can 1v1 or 2v2 then. Those situations often don't have a Draw handy, which makes Cripples extremely powerful. If you want a character who can slow down and gank a solo runner or fight in a 2v2, Crippling Dagger is going to be better than Bull's Strike.

In pure 8v8 use you're comparing a 3s Knockdown to a 3s Cripple, which is a pretty obvious choice.

Symbol · Jun 28, 2006, 03:18 AM // 03:18

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Please explain your math. If you just have Ether Prodigy causing exhaustion, you can get an average of 7-8 pips permanently without exhaustion ever growing just by budgeting yourself properly. Doing worse is mismanagement.

The math is very simple. With 11 spec and 20% enchant mod ether prodigy lasts 19 seconds. It costs 5E, you gain roughly 38E in that time period, for a net gain of 33E/19s ~ 1.74E sec, or just over 5 pips of regen. To keep it up without exhaustion buildup you'd have to cast it once every 30 seconds. That drops the gain to ~3.3 pips, or 7.3 pips total.

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Please don't put implications where they aren't. The only reason I bring a primary elementalist in the first place is for Ether Prodigy (I use Blinding Flash more often, but I actually bring it mostly for the Heal Party flexibility tbh).

What implications? All I've said is that your "10 pips for flash" argument as a is not a good one. In reality it's more like 7-8 pips shared over a few expensive skills.

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I agree, in "some sense". That's why I posed my alternate questions to yours. You can't compare solely as movement control and get anywhere useful. Comparing to Bull's Strike already fits you into a specific set of builds,warriors using Bull's Strike. Anywhere else seems pretty ridiculous to try comparing without a reasonable build to go from.

Well the assumption was that the main appeal of bull's was movement control, hence my OP. If that doesn't hold, then a direct comparison isn't meaningful and by all means we can widen the playing field.

So instead of "would you use crippling dagger to replace bull's strike" the question becomes "would you run a W/A to run crippling dagger"? IMO the answer to the second question depends entirely on the frequency of condition removal.

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At all? So an assassin that is meant as a base ganker has no use for Caltrops (or Crippling Dagger)? There are cases where in a build it might be useful to have a cripple on an assassin and not on a warrior. Base ganking assassins springs to mind. Given the cost, I'd probably have to play around between caltrops and Crippling Dagger.

Explain these cases. Why would a ganker need CD or caltrops? AoD is more than enough mobility already. I mean, I see some narrow use if you're running an assassin to harass flagrunners and such, but dedicated base ganking?

Or do you mean an assassin playing both roles? That's one case where it makes sense. Are there others?

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Skills compared in one build aren't necessarily equivalently weighted in another build.

Obviously, but in _this_ case condition removal is just as strong a counter to CD on an assassin as it is on a warrior, at least in an 8vs8 scenario.

In 1vs1 you can make a case for it, but it's not terribly compelling because the other person can see exactly what you're doing, and just stop moving to nullify the skill.

Byron · Jun 28, 2006, 04:23 AM // 04:23

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Originally Posted by Symbol

All in all, the consensus I'm getting is that the main reason crippling dagger doesn't see play in high end GvG because condition removal is too strong. Is that an accurate assessment?

That's an accurate assessment of my opinion. Nothing prevents kiting except KD; I simply don't see any way crippling dagger is going to work effectively except in a condition-heavy build. And let's not forget the damage factor - this argument has reached its end IMO.

kryshnysh · Jun 28, 2006, 05:07 AM // 05:07

I see its all misunderstandings on flashbots then. 10 pips is a nice round number, its somewhere between 9 and 10 (I don't worry significantly about exhaustion with that build and I do almost non-stop spam), and since each build varies, I just round to the easier number. Exact? No. But there is no exact without a specific build.

I agree with other posters that without Ether Prodigy's 10 pips, I would not generally bring flashbots. They can't bring enough utility without it. Its not that a Flashbot use all 10 pips for Flash, just that no 10 pips means no Flash.

I was under the impression you were actually calculating Exhaustion into the loss of pips, and that you were claiming Ether Prodigy was 5 pips including natural regen, as the number you were disagreeing with obviously included natural energy regen. I saw no reason that your 5 pips would not include natural regen (given the wording could be taken either way).

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Explain these cases. Why would a ganker need CD or caltrops? AoD is more than enough mobility already. I mean, I see some narrow use if you're running an assassin to harass flagrunners and such, but dedicated base ganking?

Or do you mean an assassin playing both roles? That's one case where it makes sense. Are there others?

In 1vs1 you can make a case for it, but it's not terribly compelling because the other person can see exactly what you're doing, and just stop moving to nullify the skill.

I doubt Crippling Daggers would be as good as Caltrops for split-off assassins, but cripple isn't bad for base-ganking, solo-ing flag runners, escaping from the split meant to kill you while you're base-ganking, etc., since most of those roles overlap quite a bit in a utility build.

Caltrops costs more and has a longer recharge, but lasts longer, casts faster, and is unavoidable. I favor Caltrops since I find the spammability minimally important. The damage doesn't matter to me either. Will I include Caltrops on an assassin? Maybe, maybe not. I think Gus said it best:

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However, I do like crippling daggers on assassins after they dropped the recharge from something like 15(?) seconds to 5. The problem is just finding room on the bar for it, same as caltrops.

IMO, Crippling Daggers will find use in an Assassin's bar rarely, and almost never in a Warrior's bar, unless we see a huge change in the metagame.

Ensign · Jun 28, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Crippling Dagger is something that I've seen to be useful in very small fights, 1v1 and 2v2. The value of conditions in those fights is much higher because the support network that usually neutralizes them is not present. Also, kiting warriors is generally much easier in a smaller fight because there are less targets to follow. In larger fights a warrior has an easier time getting to his target and the value of a cripple is much lower. Hence the unremovable mes effect of a knockdown becomes that much more valuable.

I'm not going to dismiss Crippling Dagger as any skill that controls movement has value. I think it is going to have a lot more value in arenas, 12v12, or Fort Aspenwood / Jade Quarry than HA or GvG though.

Peace,
-CxE

Symbol · Jun 29, 2006, 05:27 AM // 05:27

I've been using it in TA and in 12vs12 on a primary warrior and it's been working well so far. My experience with high end GvG is nil, which is why the opinions here are valuable.

Some quick observations:
WRT activation times the 1s vs .665s number can be misleading when it comes to latency. I've been wondering why I've found bull's less reliable than CD in some cases, and it's not just the range.

* If you're attacking, hitting CD will trigger the skill immediately interrupting the attack. Bull's strike will only do so before the hit lands. Otherwise you'll have to wait for the "recoil" animation to finish.

* If you're using an attack skill and hit CD, it'll wait until the hit, and immediately cancel into the CD animation. Bull's has to wait until the whole animation finishes.

The first is not terribly significant, but the second can be if you like to use a lot of adrenal skills.