Curse

Darth Marth · Jun 27, 2006, 10:03 PM // 22:03

I'm always hearing people discuss GW's PvP and how great/balanced/imbalanced it is. I've nev er understood this talk. I've tried GW's PvP a few times, and each try has only built up my hatred for all things PvP and resolve never to try it again. It's always seemed more confusing, difficult, and futile than PvE; ultimately, half of everyone who plays must lose. I wish I could join the the supposed fun everyone has with PvP, but I had to ask: what do people enjoy about PvP? What exactly makes it the best aprt of GW for so many?

Aiiane · Jun 27, 2006, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Marth

I'm always hearing people discuss GW's PvP and how great/balanced/imbalanced it is. I've nev er understood this talk. I've tried GW's PvP a few times, and each try has only built up my hatred for all things PvP and resolve never to try it again. It's always seemed more confusing, difficult, and futile than PvE; ultimately, half of everyone who plays must lose. I wish I could join the the supposed fun everyone has with PvP, but I had to ask: what do people enjoy about PvP? What exactly makes it the best aprt of GW for so many?

Simple version: some people enjoy competition, while others do not.

Even when losing a game, you can still be learning, improving your play, so that next time you have less of a chance of losing.

Many things that people dislike about PvP aren't actually innate parts of PvP, they're either things they've associated with them, or consequences of how they go about it. Rank discrimination (playing with friends/guildies is a much better alternative), disrespect (a function of the player, not PvP), or lack of experience (arguably the most difficult part of getting into PvP - but see the second sentence above).

kryshnysh · Jun 27, 2006, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiiane

Simple version: some people enjoy competition, while others do not.

Even when losing a game, you can still be learning, improving your play, so that next time you have less of a chance of losing.

Many things that people dislike about PvP aren't actually innate parts of PvP, they're either things they've associated with them, or consequences of how they go about it. Rank discrimination (playing with friends/guildies is a much better alternative), disrespect (a function of the player, not PvP), or lack of experience (arguably the most difficult part of getting into PvP - but see the second sentence above).

QFT.

I don't like the hyper-competitiveness of much of GW PvP. But after a while, the PvE side has the challenge of trying to beat the same AI, possibly with self-added constraints, but its not the same. PvP has an ever-changing environment, maybe slowly with respect to the metagame, but its a lot smarter than the AI, and thus a challenge that never stops growing.

Its not about winning, its the challenge, and the fun of the challenge, and for some, the people you are playing with, although this last I find more a reason to PvE than PvP personally.

Van Goghs Ear · Jun 27, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Marth

I'm always hearing people discuss GW's PvP and how great/balanced/imbalanced it is. I've nev er understood this talk. I've tried GW's PvP a few times, and each try has only built up my hatred for all things PvP and resolve never to try it again. It's always seemed more confusing, difficult, and futile than PvE; ultimately, half of everyone who plays must lose. I wish I could join the the supposed fun everyone has with PvP, but I had to ask: what do people enjoy about PvP? What exactly makes it the best aprt of GW for so many?

I hope you are not assessing your entire pvp experience from playing in arenas a couple times with random people. That would be like buying a steak sandwich from mcdonalds and then assuming you don't like steak. Sure pve is relaxing and you can play with your friends and have a mind numbing good time (I suppose) grinding and farming pixels, but pvp allows you to go head to head with living, breathing, and thinking individuals. Nothing is more thrilling than that.

minor · Jun 27, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Part of the reason pvers have trouble adjusting to pvp is that you have unlearn a lot of stuff. To quote a guildie to a newb "Forget everthing you learned in Pve." Classic example there is no such thing as a "Tank" in pvp. And yes part of relearning the game will be getting insulted by childish players that see your new. Wish the jerks weren't out there but such is life. If you can get in with some good people that can teach you will see that pvp is well worth it. As said human>AI.

jummeth · Jun 27, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

PvP in general is much more higher pressure than anything you get in PvE. I haven't tried the elite missions, so I can't make blanket statement.

PvP is unforgiving, however, if you expect to be good at it from the start, then PvPers won't find it interesting. Just ignore the tards, unfortunatly, PvP is marred like so many good things by a idiot minority.

Listen to what people say, that are helpful and good suggestions, and just keep trying.

Isil`Zha · Jun 28, 2006, 12:37 AM // 00:37

I have to agree with a lot said here. First off, there is the bad that you can get dumbass teammates, and other various idiots yelling random, stupid insults - I'm sure we all know the guy that goes around yelling "haha, you suck you f***ing n00b!" after every kill, even if it was 4 vs 1.

But, as said, the appeal is in going against someone a lot smarter than an AI. The AI in PvE is extremely limited in its intellegence, and never do anything different really - they have set skills and patterns when it comes down to it. Also, PvP is harder in a different way:

PvP's challenge comes from players that can think and perform tactics - set traps, use skills differently - people are random and unpredictable for the most part. Example:

Let's say you take an Assassin AI and a Warrior AI with a set of skills and no outside interference. Aside from the randomness of combat (critical hits, double strikes), the same AI will win every time.

However, if you take those two exact same builds and put players driving them, you'll have a totally different outcomes. Assuming the players are both compitent, you could easily have the matches go back and forth - IOW, the same one won't win every time. This is most evident with the doppleganger - I stuck my Victory is Mine build on my Warrior when I went to fight it, and it had no clue how to use it, and I took it down in < 10 seconds.

Now, consider this too, there's a few things that won't be as irritating in PvP: Massive outnumbering doesn't really happen - with even teams you can't end up with 8 vs 24. And the biggest thing is the total cheapness that comes with AIs doesn't come with Players, things like:

Infinite Energy
Insta-Target Changing merged with...
Insta-Enchantment Stripping
Omnisence to pull off above actions
Rediculously high HP
Rediculously overpowered attributes (especially on bosses in Factions)

Also, a lot of skills that you found to be utterly worthless in PvE, are extremely powerful in PvP - for all those skills you tried to use in PvE and said "This skill blows, why even make it?" Best example: Spell Breaker - in PvE, anytime I put it on someone, all the AI characters instantly just target someone else, same goes for Shield of Judgement. In PvP, it's extremely powerful, and a good way to get people to waste energy.

azunder · Jun 28, 2006, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Best example: Spell Breaker - in PvE, anytime I put it on someone, all the AI characters instantly just target someone else, same goes for Shield of Judgement. In PvP, it's extremely powerful, and a good way to get people to waste energy.

I think you got that backwards.

Thom · Jun 28, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12

PvP is confusing, difficult and sometimes futile. The ability to overcome that is what makes it fun. Getting to the point where you are significantly contributing to your team and your team pulls out the tough victories it awesome.

Your going to get burnt a few times along the way especially in random environments. Sometimes coming accross and impossible situation and achieving a small goal like taking a battle to VoD, getting some key kills or shutting down a portion of an opponents offense will signify the progress you are looking for as a pvp player and team.

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 28, 2006, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Marth

I'm always hearing people discuss GW's PvP and how great/balanced/imbalanced it is. I've nev er understood this talk. I've tried GW's PvP a few times, and each try has only built up my hatred for all things PvP and resolve never to try it again. It's always seemed more confusing, difficult, and futile than PvE; ultimately, half of everyone who plays must lose. I wish I could join the the supposed fun everyone has with PvP, but I had to ask: what do people enjoy about PvP? What exactly makes it the best aprt of GW for so many?

I think a big misconception held by a lot of non-PvPers is that people who PvP do so for the fun of beating others. Most of the PvPers I know don't get much more enjoyment out of making other players lose than they do out of killing monsters. The difference really lies in the gameplay - PvP has constantly evolving and challenging gameplay, while PvE is pretty much the same every time.

Most of the time, one PvE mission is pretty much the same as any other, and requires the same tactics to beat. You send your tank forward and damage the monsters with some sort of AoE while healing the tank. It's a pretty basic strategy that applies across most every PvE game, and it's also not particularly interesting or strategically challenging. Add that to the fact that to consistently play PvE you have to repeat the same missions a lot of times and you get the problem most PvPers have with it. It's all fairly 'easy' by their standards and the guy who repeats the mission most often is the guy who 'wins.'

Meanwhile, in PvP the content is always evolving and becoming more challenging. You never know what you'll be facing and if you want to win you have to constantly work at improving your play. The feeling of accomplishment for winning a GvG match because you made some superior strategic play far outstrips the feeling of accomplishment from beating a PvE mission for the 6th time. Feeling like crap when you lose a GvG match just makes you try harder the next time.

In short, the fact that you're fighting other players isn't what makes PvE interesting. It's the fact that the challenges and gameplay are constantly evolving. Other teams of players being involved is just a way to make that happen.

Greedy Gus · Jun 28, 2006, 05:52 AM // 05:52

While I agree that evolving interesting gameplay adds to the draw of PvP, I think you're naive if you don't think a lot of people like PvP for the competitive aspect and showing superiority over other teams.

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 28, 2006, 06:21 AM // 06:21

True, but that applies equally to PvE. Tons of people play PvE obsessively so they can show off all their cool items to other players. The competitive spirit drives players on both sides of the game.

The OP was asking about why people would play PvP instead of PvE, so I gave the reasons why I think PvP is more attractive. I agree with you that the competition is an important aspect though.

Vindexus · Jun 28, 2006, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Without reading any other posts...

It's more of a challenge than PvE. You have to make builds that bring lots of tools, because you don't know what the other team will "spawn" as, like in PvE. Then you have to use your tools better than the enemy's. All in all it makes you have to make balanced builds and play them well. It's forces you to improve yourself and play your best to win.

Makkert · Jun 28, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Timmy, Johnny & Spike.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b
To understand why some people love playing PvE, and others love playing PvP, one must first understand that people enjoy different things for different reasons.

holden · Jun 28, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Marth

I'm always hearing people discuss GW's PvP and how great/balanced/imbalanced it is. I've nev er understood this talk. I've tried GW's PvP a few times, and each try has only built up my hatred for all things PvP and resolve never to try it again. It's always seemed more confusing, difficult, and futile than PvE; ultimately, half of everyone who plays must lose. I wish I could join the the supposed fun everyone has with PvP, but I had to ask: what do people enjoy about PvP? What exactly makes it the best aprt of GW for so many?

are you in a guild, Darth? if not, join up with somebody. make sure they GVG. not halls, not team and man not random arena but GVG.

if you're in a guild and they don't GVG, quit. find another one. talk to the guys in the guild, talk to the leader, ask questions, tell them you don't understand this part of the game. you spent 50 bucks for it, if they make fun of you or don't give you any real answers, quit, find another guild.

it's a whole different world in gvg. it's a team. there's really no trash talking and shouldn't be any reason to feel uncomfortable or embarrassed. if you make a mistake talk to the officers or leader. do better next time. and really, if you can't get this kind of communication from your guild, quit, find another one.

gvg or pvp may still not be your bag. but like vindexus said, it's more of a challange than pve. it's a durable challange that won't wear off like pve. you might be surprised at how much you enjoy it.

Mo Joe Joe Joe · Jun 28, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11

I suspect you got your backside wooped; noone enjoys that. Learning PVP is not real enjoyable, but the challenge is far greater. So when you win the joy is more sweet than most PVE joys. As told above, ask a friend or guildie to help shorten the learning curve of PVP and do lots of reading of PVP forums for tips.

Taurus · Jun 28, 2006, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

PvP is confusing, difficult and sometimes futile. The ability to overcome that is what makes it fun. Getting to the point where you are significantly contributing to your team and your team pulls out the tough victories it awesome.

Your going to get burnt a few times along the way especially in random environments. Sometimes coming accross and impossible situation and achieving a small goal like taking a battle to VoD, getting some key kills or shutting down a portion of an opponents offense will signify the progress you are looking for as a pvp player and team.

There are few stuff in GW more fun than getting a VoD win after getting your @ss kicked for 30 mins GvG. PvE doesnt even get close to be as fun as a GvG with good teams in both sides.

stueyman2099 · Jun 28, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

I'll start by saying that while I havn't been hanging around these forums too long, this is the single best question I've ever seen anyone ask.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Marth

It's always seemed more confusing, difficult...

This is probably the biggest reason people prefer PvP. Having dedicated myself to the PvP aspect and going back and playing the Factions PvE Expansion, you relise that you tend to take for granted how much you've learned.

I've come across alot of players in PvE now that have skill bars that I just don't understand because to me they seem pointless and/or inefficient, or I spot alot of things they do that seem like bad plays (such as players running head first into monsters without proper support). Controversly, I look back on old screenshots of mine and wonder what the hell I was thinking back then.

The other big thing, which has been touched on, is the desire to self improve. Pve will only take you so far in that regard. The strategy of warriors up front stancing, and nuking the monsters will nearly always work. Now, if you find this aspect of the game fun, by all means have fun. But what do you do when the monsters won't always fall for the same tricks? What if they learned to get around your tanks and went straight after your monks. You need to adapt your strategy at this point, since the average PvE monk will simply crumble under the pressure, thus causing your team to fail. So, what do you do next time?

That's the challenge of PvP.

I'll also add in here (and many people will agree with me) that Random Arenas isn't true PvP in Guild Wars. There are so many random factors here that will cause you to lose by default that it can really be frustrating. The real PvP lies in in creating a team of players. At this level, you don't make one character with 8 skills, you make a team with 64 (or 32 if TA is your thing). Just right there we've increased the complexity of the game quite a bit. You get to decide what is going to happen, how your team will play, and as Vindexus mentioned, you need to decipher your randomly chosen opponent and break them. What strengths do you have? How will you push those advantages as far as you can? What are your weaknesses? How do you cover for them?

It is alot to think about, and to play at a high level in this game, it takes alot of time, practice, and team work in order to suceed. But it is very rewarding to see that time spent allow you to achieve victory over your oponent assuming it was a challenge. You started by saying that PvP is more difficult. The hardest matches you have to play and win are the funnest you will ever have.

The Real Roy Keane · Jun 28, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

I can understand where you're coming from - your first experience of HA is always a baptism of fire, and GvG is initially overwhelming. But remember that everyone had to go through the same stage as you at one point; once you find your bearings, you'll never PvE again.

Winstar · Jun 30, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

Timmy, Johnny & Spike.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b
To understand why some people love playing PvE, and others love playing PvP, one must first understand that people enjoy different things for different reasons.

Wow, someone else who has read that article

...ah Magic. Once I played PvP like I was trying to cast a Shivan Dragon, then you learn the goblins are just better. I apologize for wasting the time of those who didn't get this from not having played magic...

I'm a recent convert to PvP. While I always enjoyed PvP and getting a little better in RA and TA, I didn't really appreciate how great PvP was until I got seriously into GvG. The whole reason I love it so much now is that I got into a guild of people who are really nice, and also were serious about getting better at GvG. It simply added a degree of depth to the game that is just not there in Pve. RA is an awful way to introduced to Pvp.You land on the beach and read rediculous chatter (i now automatically shut off local chat), you get stuck on random teams that have no hope (w/m w/m w/m w/n anyone?), no tactical planning, and worse bad or conflicting planning. Top it off and you get some jerk yelling insults at you. Monking can be awful sometimes. A brave assassin/warrior/whatever sprints off into a spirt camp/lava/ice/swamp/whatever where he is quickly trounced while you are trying to run to catch up with him and you are called a noob for not keeping him up. Anway there are a few things I love about GvG

1- creating team builds (its like designing magic decks

)
2- being in a guild that takes time to talk strategy, test builds, make changes, are good people
3- Being able to plan and organize your pvp team over TS or Vent
4- Being forced to react and to new situations (as mentioned before by others). You don't know whats going to happen in a GvG match and can't rely on the things from missions like where the monsters will spawn, how easily they will pull.
5- Being able to play roles that aren't often used in Pve (Mesmers, utility characters, yadda yadda)
6- playing with a HAMMER!!!! Seriously,pvp warriors of all weapon types are sooooooo much more fun to play than pve tanks. Coordinating adrenaline spikes is way too much fun, "ok, I'm full up, call a target"...smush...or sometimes "damn that ward/blind/distortion...".

Anyway, if you actually want to get a better feel for pvp, get your guildmates to start thinking about gvg with you. If you don't have a guild that does gvg, well, try and convine them to. Its worth giving it a shot.

cheers