Curse

Apok Omen · Jun 25, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Hey guys, ever since I got back from vacation, i have been seeing sb spike and triple smite being used a lot in gvg battles.

So, I was wondering if this build could counter both of them: http://www.gwshack.us/1193f

I dont have enough time to explain it but I would like some suggestions towards it.

Note: Please do not say ''this build sux'' or anything bad, only help is wanted, not immediate put-downs; im so sick of those.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 25, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

All in all, I'm sure that you would rock and SB or triple smite team. However, you'd get rocked by a good balanced. Some suggestions:

Mesmer 1: Generally I would prefer ressurection chant as a hard res over ressurect. Also, I would probably drop remove hex, considering that you're bringing a convert, a remove, an expel, and 2 inspireds. Try switching it to a draw conditions or an interrupt.

Mesmer 2: This guys gonna have energy problems. Put a drain enchant, a power drain, or both onto his bar. Also, wouldn't well of profone be a better choice vs triple smite?

Ranger: Not experienced with trappers or oath spirit spammers. Looks like he'll have fun with triple smite though.

Spirit Spammer: Boon of Creation. You have to have Boon of Creation. My suggestion, drop flesh, extinguish, and mend. Put in draw conditions, boon of creation, and a res sig.

Axe War: Standard Stuff.

Hammer War: You probably won't need auspicious blow. Switch it to crushing. Also, if you follow my advice and put at least 1 draw conditions in there, you can switch plague touch to sprint.

Monks: Any real reason why you're using blessed light? Got something against boonprots? Also, repeat after me. Channeling + GvG = BAD Just go with standard boonprots. If there's a reason not to, the best energy management is power drain + inspired hex + drain enchantment. Takes 3 skill slots but it's just about the only choice when you don't have elite emanagement.

Apok Omen · Jun 25, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

*sigh*
Monks:
In case you havent noticed, the Ranger has NR and Tranquility. Now, if you know what they do, then you would know that boon/prots in this build equals bad!

Divine Boon would make them spend 2 pips of regen instead of just one.

Channeling was a mess up, probably gonna switch it with inspired enchant or drain enchant.

Heal monks are good for this build, since they dont have enchant heals.

No, I do not have anything against boon/prots; I play one.

Mes 1: again, a mess up, meant to put in Chant.

Mes 2: Mesmers know a lot about control, so they wouldnt be spamming every skill madly, but smartly. Well of Profane would be good, might put that in there and switch desecrate enchant for something else.

Ranger: Oath Shot is to have both spirits up at all times, as they hinder Hexes and Enchantments *hint hint* Trapping around the spirits will protect them.

Ritualist: I wouldnt use Boon of Creation as it is a 4 second cast and a 10 second duration with NR and Tran up, thus making it worthless and just asking for an interrupt. Switching Mend Ailment with Draw Conditions. Aint switching Flesh cuz it rocks.

Axe: Aint changing it; a buddy of mine uses this build and won halls alot, but then got a job and stopped playing often

Ham: Will change him, thx for suggestions.

kryshnysh · Jun 26, 2006, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Ritualist: I wouldnt use Boon of Creation as it is a 4 second cast and a 10 second duration with NR and Tran up, thus making it worthless and just asking for an interrupt. Switching Mend Ailment with Draw Conditions. Aint switching Flesh cuz it rocks.

I agree the cast time sucks, but the duration is actually 27 seconds, not 10 with NR and Tranquility up. And that ritualist really looks like he needs some kind of energy management. Those skills cost way too much to be able to spam otherwise.

sno · Jun 26, 2006, 06:29 AM // 06:29

With a communing rit having shelter and union up, healing with a boon prot is unnecessary, even without NR. Blessed light healers are great with a rit, but I'd also probably drop channeling for revealed hex or drain/inspired enchant.

as said as well: a cancel-stance for frenzy is pretty much necessary >.<

also: you have a ton of anti-enchantments already, so disenchantment on the rit may be overkill, not to mention it's really expensive. You might be better off bringing earthbind, since you have two sources for knockdowns. It helps a lot for disabling monks, or pretty much anything really.

Lord Dark Genie · Jun 26, 2006, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Both KDs are affected by stoneskin gauntlets already, no point bringing eathbind

TheOneMephisto · Jun 26, 2006, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

*sigh*
Monks:
In case you havent noticed, the Ranger has NR and Tranquility. Now, if you know what they do, then you would know that boon/prots in this build equals bad!

Divine Boon would make them spend 2 pips of regen instead of just one.

Channeling was a mess up, probably gonna switch it with inspired enchant or drain enchant.

Heal monks are good for this build, since they dont have enchant heals.

No, I do not have anything against boon/prots; I play one.

Mes 1: again, a mess up, meant to put in Chant.

Mes 2: Mesmers know a lot about control, so they wouldnt be spamming every skill madly, but smartly. Well of Profane would be good, might put that in there and switch desecrate enchant for something else.

Ranger: Oath Shot is to have both spirits up at all times, as they hinder Hexes and Enchantments *hint hint* Trapping around the spirits will protect them.

Ritualist: I wouldnt use Boon of Creation as it is a 4 second cast and a 10 second duration with NR and Tran up, thus making it worthless and just asking for an interrupt. Switching Mend Ailment with Draw Conditions. Aint switching Flesh cuz it rocks.

Axe: Aint changing it; a buddy of mine uses this build and won halls alot, but then got a job and stopped playing often

Ham: Will change him, thx for suggestions.

Ah, I knew that. I guess I wasn't really thinking about the spirits when I wrote that.

I really suggest using power drain instead of channeling/drain enchant. Power drain is the best non-elite energy management IMO (at least in GvG), albeit the hardest to use.

Even without spamming, you're surger is going to have problems. He should be using those skills as often as his target's energy regen allows him, to keep his target at low energy. At least put either a drain or a pdrain on him.

If you're not using boon of creation you're going to need some serious emanagement for that ritualist. It takes him something like 75 energy just to lay down all of his spirits (including the rit lord cost). That's just... impossible. Even if he doesn't spam disenchantment, he's going to need to spam displacement, shelter, and union just to keep them up.

Apok Omen · Jun 26, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Okay, I updated the build. http://www.gwshack.us/ec2c0

Changes I made:

Mes 1: Took out Remove Hex and put Extinguish in its place. Resurrection Chant at 5 Healing should be enough.

Mes 2: Since he did have high energy cost spells, I removed Well of Weariness for Consume Corpse (good cc and net energy of 3) Well of the Profane costs too much, and takes too long to cast, even for a Mesmer. And Desecrate Enchantments is now Power Drain, for another interrupt and good net energy.

Rt: Displacement and Disenchant became ShadowSong and Mighty was Vorizun. Both are low energy costing and MwV should work in conjunction with Auspicious Incantation. If not, Drain Enchantment is there for it. Now the Rt has some decent Energy Management, no?

Ham War: Placed Crushing Blow for Auspicious for DW and Sprint for Plague touch.

Monks. Switched out Channeling's for Power Drain and Drain Enchantment.

Okay, tell me if there is anything else I should change, and again, no put-downs, plz.

kryshnysh · Jun 26, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Okay, I updated the build. http://www.gwshack.us/ec2c0

Changes I made:

Rt: Displacement and Disenchant became ShadowSong and Mighty was Vorizun. Both are low energy costing and MwV should work in conjunction with Auspicious Incantation. If not, Drain Enchantment is there for it. Now the Rt has some decent Energy Management, no?

I don't really consider MwV energy management. It gets you a temporary increase of 5 energy, nothing permanent.

Auspicious Incantation is pretty bad here. It will give you (after its 5 energy cost) a net loss of 2 energy with MwV, and a gain of 2 with Drain Enchantment, but at a cost of 30 seconds additional recharge on Drain. That basically doubles the recharge on Drain, which means even worse energy management. Note that Auspicious says it works on spells.

Drain Enchantment is the only truly worthwhile energy management on that ritualist (a bit less so with NR up), but its a good start.

I would probably swap the ritualist to Rt/W with Balanced Stance, Retreat, and Boon of Creation (replacing Auspicious Incantation, Drain Enchantment, and Mighty Was Vorizun).

You're aiming to beat two builds, RI/SB and Triple Smite. RI/SB is going to interupt your boon, but the only thing you worry about is Union anyways. Shelter and Shadowsong do no good against RI/SB. And to recast Union and Ritual Lord, you don't need much energy management. You'll get there with natural regeneration.

Against Triple Smite, you have Balanced Stance to stop the only major interupts (KDs) and good energy management. If they mod it a bit with an axe warrior, you have to run back to avoid the axe warrior, but you really don't want to be too far forward as it is as a Ritual Lord ritualist.

I also worry about your monks. You have dust trap. Do you think you can keep your monks up through three thumpers with no prot and only dust trap to stop them? Even if you shut down the smiters, three thumpers is a lot of damage, and the smiters still have Draw or Mend Condition if nothing else. I'd probably say Barbed Trap replacing Seeking Arrows, but not sure on that yet.

Apok Omen · Jun 26, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Shelter and Shadowsong is only used against Triple Smite, Union is basically almost worthless. With a build with this many enchant and hex removals, I dont really expect to be threatened by SB. SB, with NR up and running, takes four seconds to cast, and even a monk with Power Drain can interrupt that.

Trip Smite counters: NR, Tran, Shadow song, Shelter, Weakness, Drain Enchantment, Feedback, Blessed Light, Infuse Health, etc.

Boon of Creation is both bad and somewhat beneficial here. Its an enchantment, thus giving it a 4 second cast time, and just asking for an interrupt. However, Mesmers dont really look for Rts, so it might be good.

Retreat, imo, wouldnt do that well in GvG. Balanced Stance, however, is a good choice, might put that in.

Dust Trap was more for spirit protection, but I here what you are sayng about Barbed trap. Would be great monk protection.

Ill post a new build after seeing at least two more suggestional posts. And thanks for your guys' help. I guess you want both gimmicks to end as well, or something else.

kryshnysh · Jun 26, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Shelter and Shadowsong is only used against Triple Smite, Union is basically almost worthless. With a build with this many enchant and hex removals, I dont really expect to be threatened by SB. SB, with NR up and running, takes four seconds to cast, and even a monk with Power Drain can interrupt that.

Trip Smite counters: NR, Tran, Shadow song, Shelter, Weakness, Drain Enchantment, Feedback, Blessed Light, Infuse Health, etc.

Boon of Creation is both bad and somewhat beneficial here. Its an enchantment, thus giving it a 4 second cast time, and just asking for an interrupt. However, Mesmers dont really look for Rts, so it might be good.

Retreat, imo, wouldnt do that well in GvG. Balanced Stance, however, is a good choice, might put that in.

I guess you want both gimmicks to end as well, or something else.

Actually, I suggested the Retreat/Balanced Stance combo because it has become moderately popular in GvG at the moment for Rt/Ws. Retreat triggers off of dead spirits. So the moment Union (or Shelter) goes down, you use Retreat and your allies can kite better until you get it back down.

For Boon of Creation, it only lasts 27 seconds, but you should be so far back your main worry is someone chasing you down. to interupt it, at which point you just start moving back a lot more. Otherwise, you really do have to start picking spirits, and I might prefer Soul Twisting to Ritual Lord as the elite of choice.

Union is still helpful against triple smite. Its damage prevention and will reduce a lot of the damage if placed after shelter. Its not as good as it is against RI/SB, but its still quite helpful, especially as you are mitigating a lot of the rest of the damage already.

I did miss Shadowsong for the defenses against Thumpers. I don't really consider Weakness a great defense against the thumpers. You have to swap off a squishier target to deliver that weakness against a thumper.

Actually, I'd prefer smite to stay, just weakened a tiny bit so as to not be quite so prevalent.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 26, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Retreat, imo, wouldnt do that well in GvG. Balanced Stance, however, is a good choice, might put that in.

Retreat is now officially awesome because it triggers off of dead spirits. This might be a bug, but you might as well milk it for all it's worth. I remember someone was using retreat + charge in observer a couple knights ago for constant full-party speed boosts.

I would probably put in power drain over auspicious incantation, jsut because it takes a long time to understand and doesn't look that good. Seems like something you would use with an echo'ed meteor shower or something...

(hint) Me like powerdrain. Especially since vs dual smite and vs SB spike there's gonna be lotsa slow casting enchantments and hexes due to NR.

Apok Omen · Jun 26, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Really? Retreat triggers off of dead spirits? I never knew that. Well, now I must put it in.

Okay, heres the updated version: http://www.gwshack.us/5373e

Ranger: Switched Seeking Arrows for Barbed Trap

Ritualist: Made him Rt/W, gave him BoC, Balanced Stance, and Retreat.

If there is any other changes I need to make, pls post. No put-downs as well, plz.

Byron · Jun 27, 2006, 05:25 AM // 05:25

It's not a hard counter for a smite team, since killing spirits is easy as pie with bals aura or aoe smites. I think a more direct subversion technique is necessary to counter these builds, tbh.

Aiiane · Jun 27, 2006, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

It's not a hard counter for a smite team, since killing spirits is easy as pie with bals aura or aoe smites. I think a more direct subversion technique is necessary to counter these builds, tbh.

In a vacuum, this would probably be true, but one would somewhat hope that at least a good portion of the smiting has been shut down by the mesmers, who have interrupts for the Balth's Auras (which now take 4 seconds to cast) and drain enchantments for the Zealot's Fires (which now last for approximately as long as their recharge, and can also be interrupted with a long cast time).

Thoughtful placement of NR can help as well - since the smiters have to be in range of the thumpers to smite off them, NR can be dropped in your backline and still generally reach the smiters, or even better up on a hill or some other such harder-to-reach spot.

A warrior can kill a spirit a lot faster than Zealot's Fire spam does. Against a group of spirits, Zealot's Fire would be superior, but that's a simple matter of making sure your spirit spammer isn't lazy and drops his spirits separate from one another.

I personally don't like the fact that your Convert and Expel are both on the same character - it seems like it would provide a weak point in your overall build. A lucky spike on that character would open you up to a chain effect.

Apok Omen · Jun 27, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Okay, thanks to Aiiane's help, here's the updated version: http://www.gwshack.us/35f91

Changes
________________

Mes 1: changed him to Me/N, gave him CC and Power drain in place of convert hexes and Extinquish.

Mes 2: changed him to Me/Mo, gave him Convert hexes and resurrection chant in place of CC and res sig.

If there is anything else, please let me know. Again, no put-downs, plz.

SaintGreg · Jun 27, 2006, 05:55 PM // 17:55

I think if you are going to go the NR/Tranquility route, you really have to put more stock in it (a serious downfall of such a build). I think a build more similar to what [OUT] ran at the beginning of the season would be alot more potent, having played them - not only was it incredibly tough to punch their defenses (playing as a frontloaded pressure build no less), they also had quite a powerful offense as well.

As it is now, since you have NR, mesmer 1 has approximately 5 skills that are of dubious use (hex removal and enchantment removal).

I'm still not sold that boon of creation is worth it, but since we got rolled too fast, I can't really tell you how OUT got their ritualist energy management.

Your monks are really squishie. They will crack in approximately 10 seconds to any kind of warrior pressure, almost guaranteed. Both desperately need distortion, or you could run it how they did with viper's defense on one of them. Blessed Light seriously decreases in efficiency when you use NR.

IMO the oath shot spirit guy really needs whirling defense. With oath shot, it becomes a really powerful evade that basically never quits on you. Storm chaser is a bit dubious since you really cant run flags since you need NR out all the time. If its down for the 30 seconds while you are running, your team will wipe.

Whos running flags? (I can't emphasize this more). I suppose a warrior could run flags, but then you have very little offense left anyways...

As it is now, I think dropping both mesmers for either a warrior and a ranger, or two rangers would make the build alot stronger.

Apok Omen · Jun 27, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Dude, the mesmers are a key to this build. There are a lot of 1/4 cast time hexes out there that do tons of damage. Enchant removal is also good here, as there are even more 1/4 cast time enchantments out there.

However, you make a good point there. I forgot that I made this build the first 2 days SB spike came out. There is actually two versions to this build: the defence version and the E/Mo support version. I didn't want to burden you guys with two builds so I only asked help with one in order to also help out the other.

Here's the Flag-runner version: http://www.gwshack.us/89ee4

Changes
============

Mes 1: took out feedback and gave him Rotting Flesh for Disease to enemies

Ranger: Gave him Dryder's Defenses in place of Storm Chaser due to the fact that he will be getting ganged by smiters; since Zealots Fire does Fire damage, Dryder's defenses are great in this case, despite its high recharge and low duration.

Elementalist description: as you can see, the ele has two enchantments. If you read NR/Trans descriptions carefully, youll see that the emo has to be in range of the spirits in order for him to be affected by them.

Since he is running the flag, he neednt fully worry about casting WB outside of the spirits range and then running into theyre range, as they wont effect the enchantment.

Extinguish is in there as a counter against the disease from us to our enemies back to us.

Blinding Flash is to protect the monks from the Humpers, i mean Thumpers. Enervating charge can act both as a cover condition (unless the team has draw conditions and/or Martyr) and as a condition to irritate the Thumpers even more.

Of course, no support ele is complete without Heal Party/ Ether Prodigy spam, outside the spirits range, of course.

Any other suggestions are welcome. Put downs are not.

Dragannia · Jun 28, 2006, 04:54 AM // 04:54

The problem with your two Mesmers is that they won't be doing all that much in terms of offensive power. One is only half E-Denialing, while the other won't be doing much by himself since you need two Surgers for it to work properly in GvG. In my opinion, drop him and add him as pure shutdown-pressure, with Diversion and Blackout (Blackout against adrenal spike). As for the first one, drop Feedback and add Shadow of Fear (even at 0 Curses it lasts for around 20 seconds). Shadow of Fear, with its five second recharge, is a good defence against the Thumpers. Diversioning their Reversals and Guardians and whatnot, and because they're spamming it, making it easier to Diversion off, will decrease their damage output dramatically.

Against SB/RI, the best defence is a quick finger with a FC Expel. Convert can also be of use. You can use something like Withdraw Hexes as well, though I don't recommend it. Healing Seed can also be a help, perhaps on a Mesmer to offset the slow casting.

Poison Ivy · Jun 28, 2006, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Just split up when you meet up against a SB.