Curse

vapor311 · Jun 28, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

I was just curious if anyone had run the numbers since the change to 20/20 sundering as opposed to the 10/10 before. Is it worth considering as a mod?

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 28, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Fender posted this on Team-iQ a while back...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fender

posted this in another thread, but it is probably worth repeating here, with a little more information.

Against an AL 60 target w/ perfect vamp your damage increases over base by:
sword 8.8%
axe 8.4%
hammer 9.7%
bow 12.4%

Against an AL 60 target w/ perfect 20/20 sundering your damage increases over base by 4.6% for all weapons. Much better than the 1.1% a 10/10 sundering mod would get, but still well below vamp.

vamp vs AL 70
sword 10.4%
axe 10.0%
hammer 11.6%
bow 14.7%

sundering 20/20 vs AL 70 compared to base all weapons 6.4% (10/10 = 1.3%)

vamp vs AL 100
sword 17.6%
axe 16.9%
hammer 19.4%
bow 24.8%

sundering 20/20 vs AL 100 compared to base all weapons 8.3% (10/10 = 1.9%)

So, sundering still sucks, just not as much.

Sundering is basically the mod you use when Vampiric or Zealous don't make sense. Otherwise, leave it at home for something better.

Byron · Jun 29, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Furious is a much more useful mod on a warrior IMO, when vamp or zealous don't make sense (ie, a hammer-chain). And for a bow, you've got elemental damage bows which would be more useful against judges or glads/berzerker armor, or a team with shields up (+50 armor vs piercing, blah).

ubermancer · Jun 29, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Sundering is simply godly on a Hammer, doubly so when stacked with other armor penetration, like Judge's Insight. Ive been hitting for over 150 at time in alliance battles... so... yeah. When Crushing Blow does -153 RAW damage, and you got the deep wound in too, you know you are handing out the hurt in copious quantities.

Sundering is decent on a bow (vamp is better IMO), acceptable on an Axe (but not preferable), crappy on a Sword, and a joke on daggers (why arent you using a vamp switch for your chains again?).

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 29, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Furious is a much more useful mod on a warrior IMO, when vamp or zealous don't make sense (ie, a hammer-chain). And for a bow, you've got elemental damage bows which would be more useful against judges or glads/berzerker armor, or a team with shields up (+50 armor vs piercing, blah).

Furious is meh in most cases. I'd much rather have a chance at dealing some additional damage on a spike than a chance at slightly faster adrenal gain.

Furious does become a stronger choice with To The Limit though, since it affects the adrenal gain from that just like attack skills. When it triggers this allows you to pretty much use two adrenal combos in a row, which can be terrifying on a hammer warrior.

Symbol · Jun 29, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Furious is horrible. 10% faster adrenal gain? Gimme a break.

Yanman.be · Jun 29, 2006, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Furious is good if it means you can spike faster ,because if you have the possibility to spike, you probably won't need that sundering..

Greedy Gus · Jun 29, 2006, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Furious is the choice secondary mod behind your vamp or zealous (build dependant which one of these is primary). You want to have something to bring out to avoid the health or energy degen while not fighting or if not hitting enough to warrant having it out.

The reason sundering is garbage is that the average damage it's giving you is about half that of vampiric. There is no extra benefit to having that sundering weapon as a backup, it's just a worse damage weapon than the vamp. Furious and elemental weapons actually do provide good secondary effects that you might want to utilize.

dgb · Jun 29, 2006, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Furious is good if it means you can spike faster ,because if you have the possibility to spike, you probably won't need that sundering..

10 hits become 11. I really struggle to see how this is so fantastic.

azunder · Jun 29, 2006, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Maybe he means it's more fantasic than sundering? That's not saying much though.

Greedy Gus · Jun 29, 2006, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

10 hits become 11. I really struggle to see how this is so fantastic.

Speeding up the time to charge up attack chains that you can then decide when to drop on someone is actually quite nice. Also really nice when furious triggers once or twice on a buildup when you're being harassed by blackout.

Furious helps charge adren faster and you still have the option of dropping your attacks when you want. Sundering is just a small random chance of triggering, and just can't compare. This is also why converting furious to DPS and then comparing it to sundering is ridiculous.

Phades · Jun 29, 2006, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

Sundering is simply godly on a Hammer, doubly so when stacked with other armor penetration, like Judge's Insight. Ive been hitting for over 150 at time in alliance battles... so... yeah. When Crushing Blow does -153 RAW damage, and you got the deep wound in too, you know you are handing out the hurt in copious quantities.

Sundering is decent on a bow (vamp is better IMO), acceptable on an Axe (but not preferable), crappy on a Sword, and a joke on daggers (why arent you using a vamp switch for your chains again?).

Armor penetration doesnt stack. What you saw was a critical hit combined with the 20% penetration from the judge's insight.

Fenix Swiftblade · Jun 29, 2006, 12:48 PM // 12:48

I could be wrong on this, but from what I understand, both Sundering and Judges Insight are applied as additional armor penetration, which does stack. It's only the things that are considered base armor penetration (Strength, a Horn Bow, Penetrating Attack) that don't stack, and only the highest is taken.

Raxxman · Jun 29, 2006, 12:53 PM // 12:53

so yeah in conclusion, Sundering if it was a constant % penetration it would be okay, but still not great.

As is Sundering is still underpar when it comes to pain.

stueyman2099 · Jun 29, 2006, 01:08 PM // 13:08

The only situation that I've seen that sundering is better than Vamp is in Ranger spikes, where the chance to hit 130ish damage off 1 arrow is more desireable than the 15 younormaly get from vamp.

Furious helps on a hammer warrior since they build so much more slowly than sword or axe. Mind you you want to switch to a vamp when you're ready to unload.

Byron · Jun 29, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

10 hits become 11. I really struggle to see how this is so fantastic.

As said, it's only used when vampiric or zealous doesn't makes sense, as on a hammer warrior. My Victo's Maul is like a best friend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland squidget

Furious is meh in most cases. I'd much rather have a chance at dealing some additional damage on a spike than a chance at slightly faster adrenal gain.

True enough, but I'd rather have the ability to spike more. The actual damage from a sundering trigger isn't enough to make or break any kind of spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raxxman

Sundering if it was a constant % penetration it would be okay, but still not great

Sundering does need a fix: armor penetration in itself isn't all its cracked up to be, especially against low armor targets. It should either be a constant effect (ie, 4-8% always) or a conditional trigger (eg, +10-20% armor penetration versus moving foes), IMHO. Then it might hold some weight against a vamp mod. The randomness of armor penetration doesn't seem logical, anyway.

Phades · Jun 29, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

I could be wrong on this, but from what I understand, both Sundering and Judges Insight are applied as additional armor penetration, which does stack. It's only the things that are considered base armor penetration (Strength, a Horn Bow, Penetrating Attack) that don't stack, and only the highest is taken.

Take a r/mo with judge's insight and penetrating attack & sundering attack with a sundering string and without one. There is no difference over time in the damage inflicted while using either bow and while under the effects of the enchantment or not while using either attack.

Fenix Swiftblade · Jun 30, 2006, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Take a r/mo with judge's insight and penetrating attack & sundering attack with a sundering string and without one. There is no difference over time in the damage inflicted while using either bow and while under the effects of the enchantment or not while using either attack.

Critical hit without JI: 82
Critical hit with JI: 98

Dunno about sundering though. But the question isn't whether +armor penetration stacks with base, it's whether Sundering counts as a base or a plus.

EDIT: 12 marksmanship, 15>50 shortbow

SaintGreg · Jun 30, 2006, 03:39 AM // 03:39

I did some further testing:

With 15 markmanship, shooting at 60 AL targets with Penetrating/Sundering Attack, criticals were:

Hornbow: 101
Hornbow + JI: 120

Sundering Regular Bow: 93, 110
Sundering Regular Bow + JI: 110, 131

Sundering Hornbow: 101, 120
Sundering Hornbow + JI: 120, 143

What we can conclude is this:

Penetrating Attack is 20% (base 20%). Hornbow is +10%, Sundering when triggerred is +20%, and JI is +20%. All stack with each other, which is exactly what we expected apriori.

Note: I haven't tested strength's AP, because that would have taken a long time. I'll take peoples word that strength counts as base AP. Either way its not gamebreaking, or relevant to this discussion.

Phades, you are plain wrong.

What we can also conclude, is that sundering still sucks compared to vampiric, even in the most biased toward sundering test you can get (criticals with alot of AP). Just use vampiric

GranDeWun · Jun 30, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Fender's math on sundering posted above is misleading, however, because sundering gets better against higher AL. If tgt AL is 100, sundering = +8% damage (constant equivalent).
But the real question is: Does sundering apply to skill attacks? i.e. can it trigger if you use, say, Final Thrust? If so, it would be a very good mod...