Curse

Lord Dark Genie · Jul 03, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42

http://gwshack.us/4d135

Basically it's a spike build, with little pressure. I'm kinda worried about the defensive part, it seemed a little weak while testing.

I also tried to include some tools against SB/RI spike : Convert, Expell, veil, Infuse, Gift of Health.

I'd like to include Gale on the ele in the main team, but I don't really know what to sub out.

Splits also seemed quite weak, I don't really know what I could do to improve that.

updated build : http://gwshack.us/77373

- Flagger is now a Water ele
- Replaced the necro with another Air ele
- Changed the monks a bit

Red Locust · Jul 03, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

There's nothing wrong with it per se, but it looks overly defensive.

2 extinguishes, 2 draw conditions, 2 heal parties, aegis, ward against melee, expel hexes, convert hexes, holy veil, hex breaker, 2 blinding flashes...looks like you're preparing for World War 3.

If you're having problems defensively, it's definitely not due to a lack of defensive skills. You really don't have enough offense in there to do anything other than try for one-shot kills and hope the enemy monks are asleep, because you have very little in that build to force any kind of pressure on the enemy team.
Your air ele has...1 offensive skill. Necro and mes, more or less 2 offensive skills. I'd imagine the fight would be mostly you sitting around taking the brunt of the enemy offence while you try adrenaline spikes every so often.

My recommendation would be to load up on some offense. Bull's strike on the warriors, strike/charge and gale on the ele, maybe drop the necro for a dom mesmer (as cookie cutter as it would be, it'll get the job done, and you can play around with it). Play more aggressively and force them to defend, instead of the other way around.

Vindexus · Jul 03, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Very good build.

On the Dom Mesmer I would drop Energy Burn for Diversion. I see Diversion being more usefull all around and certainly helping more spikes go through than that extra 80 damage.

On the N/Mo you could try to fit in Dark Fury, you'll get an insane amount of spikes in if you do that. Also, you should fix his attributes, you accidentally(?) set him at 11+4 Blood 9 prot and that's it.

I've never really understood Infuse health on boon prots. Why not just go with a WoH monk with Infuse?

For the split I would switch your flagger to a Water Flagger so you can snare at least a little bit.

JR · Jul 03, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

I ask myself why the Necro is there.

He has Shadow Strike and Gaze, and Offering Of Blood. Is that neccasarily better than Lightning Orb and Strike, and Ether Prodigy? I personally think not.

I also think the second Extinguish is overkill, and the single Aegis is a bit redundant. I would drop those of Blinding Flash and Gale, were you to swap. Snares are definately a problem, thus the addition of Gale. I would even be tempted to drop Gale for an unspecced Deep Freeze.

Not a huge fan of Infuse on Boon Prots; if you can't catch it with RoF/PSpirit then chances are you would have missed it anyway.

I would also consider maybe dropping "To The Limit!" for Deaths Charge, which can be scary on a hammer Warrior in adrenaline spike builds. Not that I am saying it is strictly better, but may be something you could experiment with.

As for the Burn/Diversion debate, I actually think Burn is stronger in this build. Diversion is an annoyance to the other team, but anyone good is probably very rarely going to get anything actually Diversioned by it. With zero other hexes it would be nothing but Inspired Hex bait.

Other than that, solid build.

sir lockt · Jul 04, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

On the defense part I have to agree with most of the posts above:

Infuse on a boon is asking for trouble i believe.. first you will overheal unless you catch somebody way below 100 hps... Most of these spikes you can catch easily with PS or RoF and if you miss them with those.. you would have missed them with infuse as well... Of course vs blood spikes infuse is stronger, but a copy of GoH can solve that...

Your mesmer seems ok as it is... I like the enchant removal (smite) and the damage from burn is more valuable then diversion.. as posted above.. this build relies on spikes, not on pressure, so diversion wont be usefull, because there is time to think (as monk, diversion hits me only when I need to save somebody... just in emergency...) besides this.. its would be one of the few hexes around.. nice e-management for the enemy

Your necro is kind of odd... You call it nuker.. but I see more healing/support then nuking... i think you have enough condition removal and protection in your team.. maybe you can make it a bit more offensive?

Lord Dark Genie · Jul 04, 2006, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

You really don't have enough offense in there to do anything other than try for one-shot kills and hope the enemy monks are asleep, because you have very little in that build to force any kind of pressure on the enemy team.
Your air ele has...1 offensive skill. Necro and mes, more or less 2 offensive skills. I'd imagine the fight would be mostly you sitting around taking the brunt of the enemy offence while you try adrenaline spikes every so often.

Well yeah it's pretty much the same play-style as caster spikes, spiking with little to no pressure.

I still see the warriors as a big advantage for splits, and even with next to no pressure, they still force 2 guys to kite in-between spikes.

Against any kind of hex light teams without ritualists, spikes are every 10-15 seconds, even faster sometimes. Kill rate was ~75-80% against top80-90 teams.
Even decent monks didn't seem tp save much, well timed blinding flashes were much more annoying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

I've never really understood Infuse health on boon prots. Why not just go with a WoH monk with Infuse?

Infuse was more an idea to help counter SB/RI, but I'll probably drop it anyway, and hope for a rebalance of that build...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

On the N/Mo you could try to fit in Dark Fury, you'll get an insane amount of spikes in if you do that. Also, you should fix his attributes, you accidentally(?) set him at 11+4 Blood 9 prot and that's it.

With Dark Fury, would you drop TTL on the warriors ? Would be nice for some more utility on the warriors.
Attributes should be 12+4 Blood, 12 Prot, probably forgot to fix attributes ^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

For the split I would switch your flagger to a Water Flagger so you can snare at least a little bit.

Will probably do that, thanks for the suggestion

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I ask myself why the Necro is there.

He has Shadow Strike and Gaze, and Offering Of Blood. Is that neccasarily better than Lightning Orb and Strike, and Ether Prodigy? I personally think not.

Shadow Strike/Vamp Gaze does more damage against harder targets (rangers and warriors). Other than that, the difference is utility. Going air ele would allow for another blinding flash and a gale. Necro would allow Dark Fury.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I also think the second Extinguish is overkill, and the single Aegis is a bit redundant. I would drop those of Blinding Flash and Gale, were you to swap. Snares are definately a problem, thus the addition of Gale. I would even be tempted to drop Gale for an unspecced Deep Freeze.

I'll drop an extinguish.
Aegis is just an idea to help with defense. When trying the build without it, people seemed to drop a bit too easily. Probably just mistakes on from our part.

I don't know about Deep Freeze. Is the 10s AoE snare really worth the 25energy ?
With the damage on top of it I would certainly take it, but unspecced it looks kind of weak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I would also consider maybe dropping "To The Limit!" for Deaths Charge, which can be scary on a hammer Warrior in adrenaline spike builds. Not that I am saying it is strictly better, but may be something you could experiment with.

I've seen other guilds do that with great effect, and it's definitely scary to monk against. I'm wondering if it's really worth it if only one warrior carries it ?

And just a question : What is the best way to "hide" spikes ? I try to not run directly towards the target to avoid giving it away, but the main problem I have is that whenever I call I'm not hitting anyone for ~5 seconds (calling, 3-2-1).
When I monked against this kind of adren-spike, I also noticed that behaviour, and it helps a lot for pre-protting, or timing a blinding flash right on the spike.

Is there anything to do about it ?

(I'll update the build a bit later)

Worf · Jul 04, 2006, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Call your spikes with Ctrl+Shift+Space, and go to attack one nearby target of your spike. When you have counted to 1 press T (if you haven't already) and space (or skill).
I don't play warrior, but this is the safest and easiest way imo. :)

Lord Dark Genie · Jul 04, 2006, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worf

Call your spikes with Ctrl+Shift+Space, and go to attack one nearby target of your spike. When you have counted to 1 press T (if you haven't already) and space (or skill).
I don't play warrior, but this is the safest and easiest way imo.

Calling a target and hitting something else removes the call. (At least that's what I always experienced...)

fatboyslimerr · Jul 04, 2006, 10:27 AM // 10:27

This build is freakishly similar to what my guild use and the best bit about it is the 2 warriors, air spiker and the mesmer all spiking (mesmer crucially removes prot spirit with shatter enchant).

I think that unless your necro is taking blood ritual to aid your monks, your better off with another E/Mo, possibly with windborne speed to aid flag runner or be secondary flag runner should your water E/Mo get killed.

Personally (since I play the expeller) I would dump blackout for diversion since blackout is good to use during spikes BUT requires you to be in touch distance. I know your using distortion to make you less of a target but you've still got to be in range when your team tries to spike. Another advantage of having the necro would be to use faintheartedness/p-bond (remove some of the support skills because I think you've got too many) so you've got more hexes than just diversion, so enemy monks are less likely to just be able to inspire it.

Other than that, its a pretty standard balanced with decent damage, great potential to spike, and good defense (if not a little bit too much).

Vindexus · Jul 04, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

You Diversion when you spike, scrubs. It means the monk either stops to remove it (your target dies), doesn't cast (your target dies), or gets diversioned (your next target dies).

If you run Dark Fuy I'd take out TTL.

Deep Freeze is well worth the 25e. It isn't just a 10s snare, it's a 10s Ward-Sized snare. It's freaking amazing.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 04, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Dark Genie

I don't know about Deep Freeze. Is the 10s AoE snare really worth the 25energy ?

It's a 10 sec, ward sized snare that you can drop on any character with an ele primary or secondary without any requirement for attributes. One well-placed deep freeze can often get 3-4 targets. Think of it more like a 10e or so per target snare, and it starts looking better.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 04, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

If you run Dark Fuy I'd take out TTL.

Quick question - does Dark Fury double the adrenaline gain of TTL? I know I tested this at one point, but I can't remember now.

If it does it's almost tempting to keep both in. You could basically chain one adrenaline spike directly into another, which will put a lot more pressure on their monks and force them to throw around some extremely expensive prot. This would be likely to get you a kill, especially since most monks aren't expecting another spike so soon.

neoflame · Jul 04, 2006, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Quick question - does Dark Fury double the adrenaline gain of TTL? I know I tested this at one point, but I can't remember now.

I'd be very surprised if it did. Dark Fury says "...the next time (sic) any nearby party member hits with an attack..."

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 04, 2006, 11:29 PM // 23:29

True, but Furious mods also say "Double Adrenaline On Hit" and they are triggered by To The Limit.

JR · Jul 04, 2006, 11:33 PM // 23:33

As far as I remember it doubles the adrenaline gain from "For Great Justice!", but not "To The Limit!".