Curse

Greedy Gus · Jul 05, 2006, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Axe 1
Vampiric axe of fortitude.

Warrior/Elementalist
Level: 20

Strength: 9 (8+1)
Axe Mastery: 16 (12+4)
Tactics: 11 (10+1)
Air Magic: 2

Eviscerate [Elite] (Axe Mastery)
Executioner's Strike (Axe Mastery)
Bull's Strike (Strength)
Frenzy (Warrior other)
Sprint (Strength)
Healing Signet (Tactics)
Shock (Air Magic)
Resurrection Signet ()

Axe 2
Vampiric axe of fortitude.

Warrior/Elementalist
Level: 20

Strength: 9 (8+1)
Axe Mastery: 16 (12+4)
Tactics: 11 (10+1)

Eviscerate [Elite] (Axe Mastery)
Executioner's Strike (Axe Mastery)
Distracting Blow (Warrior other)
Frenzy (Warrior other)
Sprint (Strength)
Healing Signet (Tactics)
Shock (Air Magic)
Resurrection Signet ()

Irresistable spam
Vampiric hammer of fortitude.

Warrior/Assassin
Level: 20

Strength: 9 (8+1)
Tactics: 11 (10+1)
Hammer Mastery: 16 (12+4)

Backbreaker [Elite] (Hammer Mastery)
Crushing Blow (Hammer Mastery)
Bull's Strike (Strength)
Frenzy (Warrior other)
Rush (Strength)
Irresistible Blow (Hammer Mastery)
Healing Signet (Tactics)
Resurrection Signet ()

Charge/gale sword
Vampiric sword of fortitude. Tactics shield

Warrior/Elementalist
Level: 20

Strength: 5 (4+1)
Swordsmanship: 16 (12+4)
Tactics: 12 (11+1)
Air Magic: 5

Sever Artery (Swordsmanship)
Gash (Swordsmanship)
Final Thrust (Swordsmanship)
Frenzy (Warrior other)
"Charge!" [Elite] (Tactics)
Healing Signet (Tactics)
Gale (Air Magic)
Resurrection Signet ()

Boon 1

Monk/Mesmer
Level: 20

Divine Favor: 15 (11+4)
Protection Prayers: 9 (8+1)
Inspiration Magic: 9
Illusion Magic: 8

Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
Mend Condition (Protection Prayers)
Protective Spirit (Protection Prayers)
Contemplation of Purity (Divine Favor)
Inspired Hex (Inspiration Magic)
Energy Drain [Elite] (Inspiration Magic)
Divine Boon (Divine Favor)
Distortion (Illusion Magic)

Boon 2

Monk/Mesmer
Level: 20

Divine Favor: 15 (11+4)
Protection Prayers: 9 (8+1)
Inspiration Magic: 9
Illusion Magic: 8

Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
Mend Condition (Protection Prayers)
Protective Spirit (Protection Prayers)
Contemplation of Purity (Divine Favor)
Inspired Hex (Inspiration Magic)
Energy Drain [Elite] (Inspiration Magic)
Divine Boon (Divine Favor)
Distortion (Illusion Magic)

Split:

Empathic sword
Vamp sword of fortitude

Warrior/Monk
Level: 20

Strength: 9 (8+1)
Swordsmanship: 16 (12+4)
Tactics: 11 (10+1)

Sever Artery (Swordsmanship)
Gash (Swordsmanship)
Final Thrust (Swordsmanship)
"Shields Up!" (Tactics)
Sprint (Strength)
Healing Signet (Tactics)
Empathic Removal [Elite] (Monk other)
Resurrection Signet ()

AoD Assassin
zealous daggers of fortitude

Assassin/Warrior
Level: 20

Critical Strikes: 10 (9+1)
Dagger Mastery: 15 (11+4)
Shadow Arts: 11 (10+1)
Deadly Arts: 5 (4+1)

Leaping Mantis Sting (Dagger Mastery)
Jungle Strike (Dagger Mastery)
Twisting Fangs (Critical Strikes)
Entangling Asp (Deadly Arts)
Aura of Displacement [Elite] (Assassin None)
Wild Blow (Warrior other)
Shadow Refuge (Shadow Arts)
Dark Escape (Shadow Arts)

Alternative configuration

Golden Phoenix Strike (Dagger Mastery)
Horns of the Ox (Dagger Mastery)
Falling Spider (Dagger Mastery)
Twisting Fangs (Critical Strikes)

This is my one of my favorite builds. It's played as a 6/2 split build, with the bottom two chars being a base infiltration team. You may have seen or faced us running a the first version of this build into the top ~80 in xoo ladder season 1. I feel that factions greatly strengthened the options for an infiltration team (before I had an illusion mes and a ranger), but we never got a chance to try this build out.

The general idea behind the build is to use the infiltration team to kill NPCs, harass the enemy flagger, and force a split from the enemy. Mainly, they maintain themselves as a large threat in the enemy base that needs to be dealt with or the enemy will lose.

Now, you've seen teams use this 6/2 split style effectively. From black widow, WM, evil, and reno, all the way back to EP and team union nearly a year ago. However, one main aspect of the build that very few teams have gone for is a hyper-aggressive flagstand group, opposed to a more stall-oriented setup. This puts a whole lot of pressure on the enemy team to split quickly and pick their split very wisely or get rolled, and quite frankly many teams just can't possibly split effectively against such a massive physical threat on both ends.

The flagstand group consists of 4 warriors that heavily utilize knockdowns as a substitute for mesmer effects in taking down enemy monks, and two defensive boon prots. While running this build, we could easily drop monks (from good teams) through minor warrior hate, and even up through wards and aegis with some persistance. We've also enjoyed playing this style of massive warrior pressure with knockdowns when we've run henchway during ladder locks and rolled quite a few teams.

I feel that heavy warrior pressure just gets more effective when playing in smaller groups like the 6v6 we're trying to force here. This build does require a good bit of player skill, tactical movement, and good communication.

Tips for playing the build:

The team of 6 holds the flagstand, but should pull back to utilize NPC support until the enemy has time to send their split back. This is important for distancing the two enemy squads, giving the enemy the impression that our flagstand team is weak, and to make it so they have a long retreat when they wipe.

(Note: some maps can be played with the team of 6 pushing at the enemy's base while the team of 2 runs flags and takes out enemy runners at the stand instead of in the enemy base. Ice and meditation work ok like this)

Once the enemy has split, or when you decide you can take them, the 4 warriors push forward and go 2 to a monk. The two axe wars take one monk and chain shocks and utilize bull's strike and distracting blow, while the hammer and sword take the other monk and coordinate KDs. Whenever a monk drops, the two wars collapse on the other monk and take them out with a quickness.

For flag running, any war can run when necessary, though preferably not the hammer war who has rush.

For the 2 boon prots with the warriors, their job is to support the wars. However, the best way they can support the wars is by drawing fire off them so they can frenzy and destroy the enemy monks. So basically, the monks remove conditions and hexes off the wars when they can, but once the enemy starts to pressure them, the monks can haul ass backwards and kite as far back as they need while keeping each other up. The builds are supposed to be mostly geared toward keeping themselves alive, and acting as a decoy pretty much so the warriors can do their job.

This build's infiltrators are made specifically for clearing NPCs in the enemy's base, killing people they send back or at least stalling them (if they send a heavy amount back), and especially not allowing them to run flags any more while you're there. If the enemy decides that we're not a threat, or they don't send back a proper team to push us out, our infiltrators can finish a guild lord after some work.

The players should be smart about retreating if they can't take what the enemy sends back for them, and communication should be good so they know if any enemies will be auto-ressing at base.

The really nice thing about factions is that we have empathic removal, that can keep two physical attackers fairly clean against any hate. The metagame right now heavily favors the use of e/mo's for defense against infiltration, through blinding flash, blurred vision, and water snares. None of these are a problem and we will rip this character to shreds.

Wild blow is in the build to make sure a distortion/lightning reflexes character isn't able to tank the infiltrators, though these seem to be actually fading out of the metagame. It's possible for the assassin to go a/e instead and take shock if the match leader doesn't feel the need to use wild blow.

DieInBasra · Jul 05, 2006, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Amazing build, imo. I really like it.

Does your split have to have the sword, though? I'd think dual assassins could work better. Emp seems like having 4 pips could help it more.

Why Rigor mortis when theirs Wild blow? You could then bring sheilds up on the sin and replace escape with it, but that might not be optimal. I like caltrops more then Asp when your Offhand needs cripple.

Other then that, yeah, wow. Good build.

Robster Lobster · Jul 05, 2006, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Looks good, one thing I might consider is trying to put a crip shot in there, with that much melee a spammable snare could help alot. It'd also give you a decent designated flagger as well.

beleg curudin · Jul 05, 2006, 05:09 AM // 05:09

ward against foe and ward melee + a water ele hurt this alot. also any melee evasion and shut down.

Greedy Gus · Jul 05, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

Does your split have to have the sword, though? I'd think dual assassins could work better. Emp seems like having 4 pips could help it more.

It's possible, but when we tried before with an empathic removal assassin, he got killed too easily. Assassins really get needed defense through movement and AoD, whereas the warrior can stand up to and run through things. I really don't see how an assassin would be preferable to a warrior when the elite is taken on a monk secondary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

Why Rigor mortis when theirs Wild blow? You could then bring sheilds up on the sin and replace escape with it, but that might not be optimal. I like caltrops more then Asp when your Offhand needs cripple.

Good call, I think I do like wild blow better than rigor. As for caltrops over asp, I like it and crippling dagger better as well, but the build lacks interrupts for heal sigs, troll unguents, and mitigating bodyguard damage. So KD on the assassin is very helpful. I borrowed the entangling asp leaping mantis assassin from iB, it's actually pretty nice as a ranged KD that can't miss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

Looks good, one thing I might consider is trying to put a crip shot in there, with that much melee a spammable snare could help alot. It'd also give you a decent designated flagger as well.

Just doesn't fit. The 4 warriors are needed to power through people at the stand while remaining very hard targets to kill. A cripshot can fit in the infiltration team, but I prefer the two melee attackers with empathic and the quick killing power of the assassin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beleg curudin

ward against foe and ward melee + a water ele hurt this alot. also any melee evasion and shut down.

Yeah it hurts a bit, but as I wrote, we ran this before and powered through even heavy passive/active party warrior defense. Depending on the enemy's split, they either got rid of some of their defense (obviously good) or their offense (allows our monks to play up and keep warriors clean). And if they split a monk off, we win pretty much instantly at the stand.

Worf · Jul 05, 2006, 08:06 AM // 08:06

For a warrior-heavy build I would take more hex and condition removals. Is 2 Inspired Hexes and Empathetic Removal enough to keep your warriors free from the all anti-warrior hexes? Is 2 Mend Conditions and Emphatetic Removal enough to keep your warriors out of blind/weakness? I think not. Good build, but also very weak against anti-warrior hexes.

Greedy Gus · Jul 05, 2006, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worf

For a warrior-heavy build I would take more hex and condition removals. Is 2 Inspired Hexes and Empathetic Removal enough to keep your warriors free from the all anti-warrior hexes? Is 2 Mend Conditions and Emphatetic Removal enough to keep your warriors out of blind/weakness? I think not. Good build, but also very weak against anti-warrior hexes.

I don't think you understand how hard it becomes to "shut down" 4 warriors. The more you have, the less hate each one individually has to deal with. The problem comes from passive party warrior hate like aegis and ward against melee, and I feel that 4 warriors is the sweet spot between powering through active spot hate and not getting owned by passive party-wide stuff.

Even if you manage to face a hardcore anti-warrior fellow who gives this team trouble, then you have 4 warriors with plenty of KDs who can pressure the hell out of him.

IWAY absolutely wrecked tombs until people started bringing loads and loads and loads of warrior hate, and that is where 3 monks are the norm.

If you're in to metagaming, think about what people expect to face: 2-3 melee attackers. Not 6. They build in a good amount of warrior hate because everyone runs them, but generally not a ridiculous amount. So in this build, you force the enemy to split some of their warrior hate back to their base or just get outright ganked (while giving up morale), and then instead of maintaining the melee attacker % at the stand for 6v6, we increase it dramatically.

As far as the monks bringing more hex and condition removal, I did design more into the build initially. But as we found out, the monks really get pressured hard because the enemy can't simply bash their head into the brick wall of our warriors all day. So the monks really assist the team overall better by being more self-sufficient and being able to kite way back and keep the enemy offense occupied while we rage their monks. By way back, I'm not kidding. Monks should seriously just keep moving back if the enemy pursues. The idea of positioning is much different when you're running a 6-man split where 4 are healsig warriors.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 05, 2006, 01:09 PM // 13:09

I like it. One thing that kind of bothersme is your sword warrior though. Does he have enough energy to actually use gale? Also, no cancel stance for frenzy, which can get very dangerous. I might suggest putting tiger's stance on him instead of frenzy, but I guess if the guy playing him is good he could deal.

And yes, it's almost impossible to shut down 6 melee attackers. Even if the opposing team can shut down 3-4, that's still 2 warriors raging their faces all day.

icantthinkofonerightnow · Jul 05, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

If you wanted "Irresistable Spam", why aren't you running a Bunny Thumper? (Or possibly a W/R with the same skillbar as a Thumper.)

TheOneMephisto · Jul 05, 2006, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by icantthinkofonerightnow

If you wanted "Irresistable Spam", why aren't you running a Bunny Thumper? (Or possibly a W/R with the same skillbar as a Thumper.)

I think that the name isn't literal. Most hammerwars spam irresistable quite frequently, but he wants it to do lots of damage and spikes also.

Neo-LD · Jul 05, 2006, 05:07 PM // 17:07

A while ago I read something Ensign wrote; it went something like, "its better to run 2 or 3 warriors and keep them running at near 100%, than to run 5 or 6 and have half of them shut down."

We would have faced you guys twice now during ladder lock, but this build explains why you've been the only team willing to trade guild lords with us

Question: what do you do on maps where splitting is diffcult (Jade, Fire, Imperial) ?

Greedy Gus · Jul 05, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

I like it. One thing that kind of bothersme is your sword warrior though. Does he have enough energy to actually use gale? Also, no cancel stance for frenzy, which can get very dangerous. I might suggest putting tiger's stance on him instead of frenzy, but I guess if the guy playing him is good he could deal.

Gale is manageable. The old version of this build had sprint instead of healsig on the sword war, and power drain instead of healsig on the hammer war. However, when it turned out that the monks couldn't really support the warriors so well if they were being pressured hardcore, the lack of heal sig could be problematic at times. Tiger's stance could be used over frenzy, but with our boon prots acting as decoys for the enemy's offense, I prefer the full uptime of frenzy, even if you have to be a bit more cautious.

The use of gale is priceless as a ranged snare and always leads to more kills after destroying their monks and forcing their retreat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by icantthinkofonerightnow

If you wanted "Irresistable Spam", why aren't you running a Bunny Thumper? (Or possibly a W/R with the same skillbar as a Thumper.)

With no defense in the build except for two stressed boon prots who are focused on keeping themselves alive, a ranger sticks out like a sore thumb as a soft target in a sea of warriors. Thumpers also can't keep themselves alive like a 11 tactics healsig war. Plus, a hammer warrior KD'ing through block with irresistable is a full 3 second knockdown, as is bull's strike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

A while ago I read something Ensign wrote; it went something like, "its better to run 2 or 3 warriors and keep them running at near 100%, than to run 5 or 6 and have half of them shut down."

I definitely agree. However, I find that the build works very well in this small unique niche. If you introduce more softies to clean up wars, you also have to introduce more defense or they'll get annihilated. You also need to introduce mesmer effects, as you lose some the mass KDs (which btw, doesn't matter if you're clean or not to chain shock a monk). I find that in the smaller group, ~6v6, it works nicely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Question: what do you do on maps where splitting is diffcult (Jade, Fire, Imperial) ?

We played this before factions, and fire map was definitely interesting. Generally, we would pull back a bit and feign weakness, and then when they push on you, zerg them with the full team. If people dont' start dropping quickly, then we'd send the two infiltrators to push right through the enemy and split them that way. It's possible that they fall back on our guys, but it often leads to giving up morale and position. (reno vs. ew style)