Curse

Patrograd · Jun 23, 2006, 07:27 AM // 07:27

From watching observer mode last night, and reading around various fora, it appears as if 2/3rds of the top 20 guilds are currently running triple smite (3 thumpers, three smiters, a tainted/water ele and a boon).

From watching these teams, and there are some well know, respected and competitive serious guilds running this, it seems as if this totally front loaded build has just taken over. This would seem to be a clear sign, when guilds perfectly capable of running brilliant balanced teams run a so-called "gimmick", that something here is overpowered.

Now I am usually the last person to shout "nerf", and to be honest I have loved the return of smite to the game, but this situation where everyone is powering through GvGs, in many cases completely ignoring tactical and strategic fundamanetals like flag running, relying totally on the combined power of thumpers paired up with the AOE of smite, does not seem healthy for the state of the game. I was watching one guild last night, who shall remain nameless, but they are a genuinely top team that have played in every single finals tournament to date, running this with their thumpers not actually even bothering to hit anything, just running around spreading the smite damage.

So the question is this:

is it possible to metagame a build to counter this? As this seems to be quite similar in concept to IWAY, can you counter it with a typical anti-IWAY tombs build modified perhaps for GvG? Something like, off the top of my head, 1 shock warrior, 2 migrainers, 1 foc with faintheartedness, 1 spiteful with faintheartedness and wards? I haven't tried this, but I have my doubts that it would work, due to the sheer AoE power of three x balth aura at 16 smiting.

If it isn't possible, and the fact that the top teams aren't building against it suggests it probably isn't, then isn't there only one option left?

My guess is that this phenomenen is at least partly down to the short season span currently in force, which is going to be magnified by about 1000% during the upcoming open event, as these short seasons force even really good teams into ratings farm builds. i dont quite know what ANet were thinking of to be honest with these three mini seasons. Here's hoping for a proper season duration next time around. Anything much less than about 3 months is going to promote farming builds over tactical builds, and i feel that eventually that is going to kill the game.

Phoenix Arrows · Jun 23, 2006, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Shadow of Fear, Wards, Aegis chain? The knockdown of the blocking from Irresistible Blow is annoying though.

Diversion the Smiters. gg

Thom · Jun 23, 2006, 08:34 AM // 08:34

If done correctly, this verges on unstoppable. There are about 15 things you can do to mitigate smite, but at the very least you need herculian movement or an mean spike. If I had to build directly against it, I'd go with a hex spam/spike featuring an assassin ganker and a ritualist.

AoE should be nerfed as much as I love the skill.

Lovag · Jun 23, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Anything much less than about 3 months is going to promote farming builds over tactical builds, and i feel that eventually that is going to kill the game.

Anything over 1 month will promote smurfing so don’t count on longer seasons. Remember the first tournament?

As to a counter I have no idea but I would definitely not count on wards (smite area effect gg) or aegis.

suiraCLAW · Jun 23, 2006, 08:39 AM // 08:39

I don't see whats wrong with it.

Like with everything: if you play it, you know the counters (this may sound stupid, but I wouldn't be surprised if that is the reason why those top guilds run it).

Counters:
-Snares (traps ftw)
-warrior hate
-Soul Barb (negetates the healing from the smiters) + cover
-split
-shadow shroud
-blackout, diversion and other caster hate on the smiters
-natures renewal
-tranquility
-heal party spamming
-...

Meownia · Jun 23, 2006, 09:33 AM // 09:33

I dont really know whats the point to great guilds like Te run that build really. I saw them lose once to [sup], probably because first encounter of that powerbuild, next time with their own balanced my bets would have been on Te.
Maybe they were frustrated to lose against underdog, maybe they wanted to understand that build, speculations.

We ran that build during last season on tombs for fun, except with water ele in place of death necro and passive smiter n/mo death/smite on third smiter. We noticed there that it was suicidebuild without healing seeds planted in about everywhere and that is the key to beat that build.

We have beaten sup twice in lavamap when they were running triplesmite and I also have beaten them when guesting to our allianceguild.

Key to beat them is the aggression. Number 7 and 8 from that build are soft as hell, getting help only from smiters. And if smiters smite them their offense fails. First minutes counts most, because their first balthauras usually comes synchronised. Kiting and water hexes reduce their damage most imo. You can dp 7 and 8 out easily and after that their initially weak flagrunning fails totally.

It was also pleasure to see Chimera Of Intensity to collect +45 points in 10 minutes with splitting against triplesmite in their Druids map and finishing games under 3 mins. Ci <3.

Patrograd · Jun 23, 2006, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

I don't see whats wrong with it.

Like with everything: if you play it, you know the counters (this may sound stupid, but I wouldn't be surprised if that is the reason why those top guilds run it).

Counters:
-Snares (traps ftw)
-warrior hate
-Soul Barb (negetates the healing from the smiters) + cover
-split
-shadow shroud
-blackout, diversion and other caster hate on the smiters
-natures renewal
-tranquility
-heal party spamming
-...

You cant split, because if you do they go straight for your Guild lord. In fact, they go straight for your Guild lord anyway, all 8 of them. Good luck with winning *that* gank race with anything but triple smite.

How do you counter that? You need to be able to either

a) outgank them, this seems unlikely even with spike
b) Somehow turtle around your bodyguards and Guild lord while simultaneously keeping your team alive, keeping your NPCs alive and killing them before they can kill you.

Now if this was tombs, what you would do is option b, and you would run heal party and double healing seed, and wards, and you would take advantage of a lack of serious healing on their team through massive degen. but in tombs you have three monks, and in GvG you also need to build to counter anything else you might come across, so you need to retain mobility, splittability, flag control and counters to other builds in the unlikely event that you come across a team that isnt running this, so this removes spirits from the equation as a serious counter imo, as the only place where you know you can get them down effectively is in turtle, where they will get destroyed by the AoE in very short order. You could bring an oath shot spirit spammer, but in every other situation against every other build he would be a total passenger. Warrior hate is only part of the answer, and quite a small part, as what kills you is triple balth aura for 78 damage per second on top of triple zealots spam at 37 damage every 1.5 seconds or so. Thats a total AOE damage of over 100 DPS, in fact it approaches 200 DPS for 10 seconds = 1500+ damage AoE, and thats if the thumpers dont hit you at the same time, and each thumper is capable of adding what? 50DPS? more? I know, lets throw disease in on top, becasue we really need a little more pressure in this build :/. its a good job I brought extinguish as a counter, now if only I can stay alive long enough to cast it........

Meownia · Jun 23, 2006, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Good luck with winning *that* gank race with anything but triple smite.

Chimera Of Intensity did that twice. Rank 150+ guild did that against Char. I think that proves it possible.

Patrograd · Jun 23, 2006, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meownia

Chimera Of Intensity did that twice. Rank 150+ guild did that against Char. I think that proves it possible.

interesting, what were they running?

Meownia · Jun 23, 2006, 10:30 AM // 10:30

2 wars, 2 burners.. They send 2 warriors, 1 monk, 1 mesmer to take out bodyguards and guild lord. The thing is triplesmite never finished their lord before 2 minutes res and 2 warriors do maximum damage to guild lord easily.

JR · Jun 23, 2006, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meownia

The thing is triplesmite never finished their lord before 2 minutes res and 2 warriors do maximum damage to guild lord easily.

Indeed. With the damage cap on the Guild Lord two Warriors will do exactly the same as eight Meteor Showers, for example.

Where the average FoTM smite build DOES have an advantage is Disease, which rocks bunched players or NPCs pretty hard.

Lord Dark Genie · Jun 23, 2006, 11:01 AM // 11:01

played against [sup] at the start of the season.

All I can remember is that Ward against Foes really helped a lot.

EagleEye812 · Jun 23, 2006, 11:53 AM // 11:53

2 diversions will help the counter alot as well, just cast it on the smiters wile they are spamming, you'll notice alot less "-37 (Zealots Fire)" flashing over your head.

Patrograd · Jun 23, 2006, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleEye812

2 diversions will help the counter alot as well, just cast it on the smiters wile they are spamming, you'll notice alot less "-37 (Zealots Fire)" flashing over your head.

the better teams attack enemy mesmers first I have noticed, and they get the full benefit of that synchronised triple aura. With Diversion being a 3 second cast, ok a 2 second cast with fast casting, this means that you are standing still with >200 DPS for 2 seconds. Your reward? Well, if the smiter isnt a good one, and doesnt notice the diversion, you remove 30 of that >200 DPS for 45-50 seconds. Its a start i suppose, although any smiter worth his salt will be running hex breaker, so you'll just add more damage to yourself on top of all that you've taken by standing still for so long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Indeed. With the damage cap on the Guild Lord two Warriors will do exactly the same as eight Meteor Showers, for example.

Given that a gank race involves the killing also of two bodyguards, then it is the case that the team which starts on the Guild Lord first, after the BGs are dead should win. If you have three thumpers, you can put one on each target, and by the time the BGs are down, which i dont suppose takes all that long, the GL has already suffered quite a bit of damage.

I suppose if you co-ordinate your attacks properly, and if you can actually get there as fast as they do, then you have a chance with a standard balanced, i had forgotten about the guild Lord's amulet. Still seems a bit sad that a game which was, a week ago, a game of e-chess has become a 2 minute gank fest though.

JR · Jun 23, 2006, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Still seems a bit sad that a game which was, a week ago, a game of e-chess has become a 2 minute gank fest though.

Actually we managed to gank two guilds in under two minutes the other day... I must upload that video.

[/ot]

Kabale · Jun 23, 2006, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Or how about just draining their Zealot's. This doesn't require otherwise useless skill(s) that'll make you any less effective against other builds, and should reduce the damage considerably.

Or just run FoC+desecrate spike

Happy · Jun 23, 2006, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

Or how about just draining their Zealot's. This doesn't require otherwise useless skill(s) that'll make you any less effective against other builds, and should reduce the damage considerably.

Or just run FoC+desecrate spike

Even without zealots, 3 Thumpers + BA rape face pretty bad.

Kabale · Jun 23, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Well it's still alot more manageable than having them go wild with their Zealot's. It should ease the pressure enough to be more coordinated at least.

Electric Death · Jun 23, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

Or how about just draining their Zealot's. This doesn't require otherwise useless skill(s) that'll make you any less effective against other builds, and should reduce the damage considerably.

Or just run FoC+desecrate spike

Exactly what i was going to post, minus the FoC+Desecrate spike bit lol.

But yea if you drain the zealot's thats a decent decrease in their damage, since zealots has a 60 second recharge time, it will be a while before they can recast it again, only to have it stripped yet again

So drain/shatter + snares (crip shot or water snares) or ward vs foes will help alot imo.

kryshnysh · Jun 23, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electric Death

But yea if you drain the zealot's thats a decent decrease in their damage, since zealots has a 60 second recharge time, it will be a while before they can recast it again, only to have it stripped yet again

30 Second Recharge

You can drain/shatter Zealot's Fire, but then you need to score a kill before they use it again, or watch them to know when to drain/shatter it. I tend to prepare it while outside of visual range so that its ready to be recast when they drain/shatter it. Then I reapply it a short bit (but not immediately) after I lose it. This forces someone to babysit me a good bit or not have it down all the time. If they're babysitting me, they're taking me out pretty effectively, but also taking themselves out of their usual role and thus sacrificing their own offense for defense.

Diversion is becoming a bit more common on me, making me look at hex breaker and sacrificing some of my damage. Diversion is problematic only if you aren't forcing the smiter to kite though. When I have Diversion and a warrior on me, they reduce the effectiveness of each other.