Curse

Winstar · Jul 02, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

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Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Keep in mind that the assassin has deep wound also.

True dat. So about 400 with the Deep wound for the sin in 5.32, vs 247 for the warrior in 2.24.

The warrior has to charge up first, but but unloads more damage in a shorter period with fewer skills. While the sin unloads more damage over slightly more than double the time. In this long post I'm sure this has probably been calculated before...srry. But it does seem like in terms of a pure spike that the warrior is better. This is not to say that sins are great, they clearly are, but they really are slightly different in terms of role due to the kind of damage output they produce. Anyway, I'm not happy if either are trying to smush me.

Greedy Gus · Jul 02, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

True dat. So about 400 with the Deep wound for the sin in 5.32, vs 247 for the warrior in 2.24.

The warrior has to charge up first, but but unloads more damage in a shorter period with fewer skills. While the sin unloads more damage over slightly more than double the time. In this long post I'm sure this has probably been calculated before...srry. But it does seem like in terms of a pure spike that the warrior is better. This is not to say that sins are great, they clearly are, but they really are slightly different in terms of role due to the kind of damage output they produce. Anyway, I'm not happy if either are trying to smush me.

I wouldn't take too much away from this comparison. A good damage comparison would be: aura of displacement + 4 attack skills (gps/horns/falling/twisting) vs. frenzy + 4 attack skills. I think you'll find the warrior is right up there with the assassin if they choose to do a 5 second attack chain. The main contrasts are frenzy vs. aod, and adrenaline vs. energy. The fact that you can have a decent warrior with only two attack skills simply lets you pack more useful utility onto the bar, it doesn't mean that's the damage limitation.

Isil`Zha · Jul 03, 2006, 02:22 AM // 02:22

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Originally Posted by DieInBasra

Those number are slightly distorted because sundering is only half as good as vamp on the 60, and only a third as good as vamp on the 100. Also, every single warrior uses 16 wep mastery. most have 9 str, or 13 depending on if they bring healing signet.

Sorry, was a limitation on what Characters we had available, we're gonna do another one with a 16 axe mastery warrior.

Also, please read the entire thing, and the emphasis where the vamperic damage was ignored for the tests.

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Yeah, next time try Penerating Chop instead of wild blow.

Will do.

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Except an assassin vs a block/evade, the attack are multiplicative, so trying to get GPS-twisting though on a 50% block is like a 75% miss chance. It gets worse as you go along. But for a warrior, it's like 50% chance to get exe through.

Throwing in blocks/evades and other utility skills throws in an absurd number of variables. We were looking at straight damage, period. Also consider blinding powder + unseen fury means Warrior is effectivly disabled for 10+ seconds, and at the same time all the Warrior's block/evade skills are useless. Thus, utility skills were ignored for these tests.

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I hardly think that 14 dps from bleeding posion matches to an axe's potential 40 dps.

40 dps over what time frame? If we go by total damage done, the 'sin has nearly twice the DPS - ignoring deepwound and degen.

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That's because a warrior only needs two skills to spike effectivly, the rest can be antikiteing/speedbuffs.

But it takes a while to get there, and I conceded on spiking a while ago, I was misuing it.

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But seriously, you can't call anything a spike that takes that long, the axe situation isn't realistic. I don't exactly know what you're trying to prove with this artical. A better idea is to do use Evis-Exe vs GPS-Horns-Falling-Twisting. After that, look at the numbers and look at the fact axe's can bring shock and bulls strike, both 3 second kd's vs the assassin's 2 second, and it's easy to see who comes out on top.

Again, I was in error about the spiking comment. And I think this article proves that DPS is what I should be arguing. The Warrior had to build up, and a lot of its damage was near the end when it pulled off Evis-Exe. Adding in other attacks/skills again throws in too many variables, cause then you get into AoD canceling and kiting, and it can just go on foreever.

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Btw, try Sever Artery-Gash-sun and moon slash-Final thrust, see how that fairs.

hmm, we'll have to see about that too.

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Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Using a combination of gwgurus calculators and guildwiki's skill descriptions.

Warrior, 16 axe 13 str, frenzy->eviscerate -> executioners
150 dmg in 2.24 sec

...it takes more than 2.24 seconds to build up the Adrenaline to pull off that spike.

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Assassin, 16 dagger 13 crit, GPS->horns->falling spider->twisting
294 dmg in 5.32 sec

Those are fairly accurate. Note that this is would be using a +35% non-modded weapon and that deep wound is not factored in.

NOTE: Both assasin and warrior have deep wound.

We know, and if you read the entire article, and not just parts of it, you'll note that we are aware that both have deep wound, and that conditions were thrown out in this comparison.

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Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I wouldn't take too much away from this comparison. A good damage comparison would be: aura of displacement + 4 attack skills (gps/horns/falling/twisting) vs. frenzy + 4 attack skills.

The problem was time. The Warrior took nearly twice as long to get to those attack skills. Also note what this was in reply to - an evis-exec Warrior. IOW, the Assassin will be half-way through pulling off the combo again before the Warrior even gets his/her first spike in.

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I think you'll find the warrior is right up there with the assassin if they choose to do a 5 second attack chain. The main contrasts are frenzy vs. aod, and adrenaline vs. energy. The fact that you can have a decent warrior with only two attack skills simply lets you pack more useful utility onto the bar, it doesn't mean that's the damage limitation.

Except the Warrior takes nearly 2x longer to do the same amount of damage, which means the 'sin could nearly double the damage done in that amount of time as well by going through the combo a second time, on average (due to the randomness of critical hits regaining energy.)

And for clarity, I'm not saying the Warrior isn't "right up there with the Assassin." I'm not trying to downplay the Warrior at all. I'm going the opposite actually - showing the Assassin is right up there with Warriors in damage. It's just done differently.

Siren · Jul 03, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57

When people are doing these damage comparisons...particularly the spike time...could you please please PLEASE remember that no Warrior spike is ever that short? I'm staying away from this thread, because of some of the utter crap that's being thrown around...but I feel like I need to step in and correct a few misconceptions here.

1. Assassin spikes never take more than 3 seconds. The good ones happen in under 1 second when it comes to actual attack skills. I can think of one attack combination that can easily do 250 damage, Deep Wound factored in.

2. The Assassin "spike" (GPS->horns->falling spider->twisting 294 dmg in 5.32 sec) is not a spike; it's barely an attack chain in the first place, and does not represent an honest-to-god Assassin spike.

3. Warrior spikes never occur in under 3 seconds, especially when we're setting up the Assassin "spike" examples with enchantments, GPS, etc.

4. Warriors depend on Adrenaline for nearly all of their attacks--and particularly every attack we're seeing used here as examples in this discussion. This Adrenaline dependence forces the Warriors to wait at least 8 seconds (under Frenzy) so they can use Evis-->Exe. 8 seconds, people.

5. Spike prep time is not being represented correctly. Warriors have at least 8 seconds of prep time before they can do anything. An Assassin needs one or two enchants or hexes to set-up their spikes. The Warrior prep time is at least 8 seconds. Assassin prep time is maybe 1-2 seconds.

6. Front-loaded damage versus backloaded damage is where a damage comparison should always be, not on the number of skills, not on the time-frame of the attack. Counting the number of skills then automatically labeling it a 2-second spike is asinine and stupid, just like it would be asinine and stupid to label a 4-attack skill sequence as a 5-second spike. The time-frame of the attack...same deal. It should not be the main point people are harping on, because the main point of discussion should be...

...front-loaded damage versus backloaded damage. The Assassin is front-loaded damage. Warrior is backloaded damage. Assassin's skills are always ready. Warrior needs to charge his. Assassin can spike hard and fast due to front-loaded damage. Warrior spikes are hard and slow by comparison, due to backloaded damage.

In perfect builds on both characters (by the way, I guarantee that nobody here has been giving Assassins perfect builds that are designed to spike a target), Assassins will come out on top, because not only will they be able to spike faster and harder (their perfect spikes are a hell of a lot scarier than a Warrior's), they can do it far more consistently when they kill their current target. If that doesn't make sense to anyone here, good. It proves to me you haven't learned some diabolical tricks in playing Assassin. lol

I'd like this thread not to continue on as a Warrior vs Assassin thread, because there's already one of those around here somewhere...probably with the title of Damage Comparison: Warrior vs Assassin. Talk about anything you'd like, certainly, but please stay away from any Warrior vs Assassin discussions, m'kay?

Winstar · Jul 03, 2006, 03:29 AM // 03:29

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Originally Posted by Siren

When people are doing these damage comparisons...particularly the spike time...could you please please PLEASE remember that no Warrior spike is ever that short? I'm staying away from this thread, because of some of the utter crap that's being thrown around...but I feel like I need to step in and correct a few misconceptions here.

1. Assassin spikes never take more than 3 seconds. The good ones happen in under 1 second when it comes to actual attack skills. I can think of one attack combination that can easily do 250 damage, Deep Wound factored in.

2. The Assassin "spike" (GPS->horns->falling spider->twisting 294 dmg in 5.32 sec) is not a spike; it's barely an attack chain in the first place, and does not represent an honest-to-god Assassin spike.

3. Warrior spikes never occur in under 3 seconds, especially when we're setting up the Assassin "spike" examples with enchantments, GPS, etc.

4. Warriors depend on Adrenaline for nearly all of their attacks--and particularly every attack we're seeing used here as examples in this discussion. This Adrenaline dependence forces the Warriors to wait at least 8 seconds (under Frenzy) so they can use Evis-->Exe. 8 seconds, people.

5. Spike prep time is not being represented correctly. Warriors have at least 8 seconds of prep time before they can do anything. An Assassin needs one or two enchants or hexes to set-up their spikes. The Warrior prep time is at least 8 seconds. Assassin prep time is maybe 1-2 seconds.

6. Front-loaded damage versus backloaded damage is where a damage comparison should always be, not on the number of skills, not on the time-frame of the attack. Counting the number of skills then automatically labeling it a 2-second spike is asinine and stupid, just like it would be asinine and stupid to label a 4-attack skill sequence as a 5-second spike. The time-frame of the attack...same deal. It should not be the main point people are harping on, because the main point of discussion should be...

...front-loaded damage versus backloaded damage. The Assassin is front-loaded damage. Warrior is backloaded damage. Assassin's skills are always ready. Warrior needs to charge his. Assassin can spike hard and fast due to front-loaded damage. Warrior spikes are hard and slow by comparison, due to backloaded damage.

In perfect builds on both characters (by the way, I guarantee that nobody here has been giving Assassins perfect builds that are designed to spike a target), Assassins will come out on top, because not only will they be able to spike faster and harder (their perfect spikes are a hell of a lot scarier than a Warrior's), they can do it far more consistently when they kill their current target. If that doesn't make sense to anyone here, good. It proves to me you haven't learned some diabolical tricks in playing Assassin. lol

I'd like this thread not to continue on as a Warrior vs Assassin thread, because there's already one of those around here somewhere...probably with the title of Damage Comparison: Warrior vs Assassin. Talk about anything you'd like, certainly, but please stay away from any Warrior vs Assassin discussions, m'kay?

1) I don't believe that there is any assassin spike that happens in under 1 sec. Perhaps 1 attack...but there is no way you chain a series for a spike in under a second.

2) GPS->horns->falling spider->twisting is a pretty standard and good sin chain used pretty much at all levels of the game. Could you provide some examples.

3) The actual spike portion happens in under 3 easy. With Frenzy up its always under 3 to fire off evis+exe

4) Yes, warriors do need adrenaline before the spike can occur. Assassins can begin immeadiately, but the standard combo (and show me something else please that produces the same output in 1 sec..not being a jerk, i've just never heard of this) GPS->horns->falling spider->twisting is setup with AoD takes most of the sins energy, and they cannot begin a spike immeadiately and so have their own cooldown time for that and recharge wait as well. So while the sin can begin right away once the intitial use has been made the limits of their energy pool limit the number of spikes in the same way a warrior must build up adren. Assassins skills are simply not always ready.

5) The time frame in which a spike actually occurs is relevant imo since the shorter the duration of the actual spiking, the smaller the window of opportunity there is for healing to counteract the spike. Think of any 1,2,3 spike you've ever done. When its crisp and everyone hits together in a smaller window, the target drops. When its not crisp and the damage is spread and the window is larger its is easier to save the target. So in a very important sense a sin doesn't spike faster and harder since they won't deal as much damage in a compressed interval of time.

Then again, i just might not know the diabolical tricks u speak of.

DieInBasra · Jul 03, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34

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The Assassin is front-loaded damage. Warrior is backloaded damage. Assassin's skills are always ready. Warrior needs to charge his. Assassin can spike hard and fast due to front-loaded damage. Warrior spikes are hard and slow by comparison, due to backloaded damage.

Assassins spike might come before the warriors, but the damage is actually backloaded because you need a chain. Warriors get the damage+deepwound in right away, or otherwise on the second hit with a very powerful followup, so their damage is frontloaded, or at least not as backloaded as an assassins.

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Warriors have at least 8 seconds of prep time before they can do anything. An Assassin needs one or two enchants or hexes to set-up their spikes. The Warrior prep time is at least 8 seconds.

7.2 under frenzy, with an axe. Actually less, but I round. But that's only the first spike that assassins come first in, after that warriors have a pretty big advantage. 7.2 second prep spike vs 15 it takes to recharge twisting. of course, I'd admit that's favoring warrior, but they also have quite a few ways to manipulate adren, while assassins have nothing reliable to manipulate recharge.

I think you're a bit to hung up on the fact warriors can't spike right away. After that initial spike, warriors have a helluva lot more going for them, and you definitly can't call them backloaded.

But really Siren, if you have all this wealth of assassin information that makes them better then warriors damage wise, please share it with us. I mean, it's easy for me to believe you know more then the rest of the GW community, including the top 100 guilds, but if you could pass even a bit of it on to us lowly players who STILL haven't learnt the best assassin tricks, or even builds that actually work, I'd be grateful.

Red Locust · Jul 03, 2006, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

When people are doing these damage comparisons...particularly the spike time...could you please please PLEASE remember that no Warrior spike is ever that short? I'm staying away from this thread, because of some of the utter crap that's being thrown around...but I feel like I need to step in and correct a few misconceptions here.

1. Assassin spikes never take more than 3 seconds. The good ones happen in under 1 second when it comes to actual attack skills. I can think of one attack combination that can easily do 250 damage, Deep Wound factored in.

2. The Assassin "spike" (GPS->horns->falling spider->twisting 294 dmg in 5.32 sec) is not a spike; it's barely an attack chain in the first place, and does not represent an honest-to-god Assassin spike.

3. Warrior spikes never occur in under 3 seconds, especially when we're setting up the Assassin "spike" examples with enchantments, GPS, etc.

4. Warriors depend on Adrenaline for nearly all of their attacks--and particularly every attack we're seeing used here as examples in this discussion. This Adrenaline dependence forces the Warriors to wait at least 8 seconds (under Frenzy) so they can use Evis-->Exe. 8 seconds, people.

5. Spike prep time is not being represented correctly. Warriors have at least 8 seconds of prep time before they can do anything. An Assassin needs one or two enchants or hexes to set-up their spikes. The Warrior prep time is at least 8 seconds. Assassin prep time is maybe 1-2 seconds.

6. Front-loaded damage versus backloaded damage is where a damage comparison should always be, not on the number of skills, not on the time-frame of the attack. Counting the number of skills then automatically labeling it a 2-second spike is asinine and stupid, just like it would be asinine and stupid to label a 4-attack skill sequence as a 5-second spike. The time-frame of the attack...same deal. It should not be the main point people are harping on, because the main point of discussion should be...

...front-loaded damage versus backloaded damage. The Assassin is front-loaded damage. Warrior is backloaded damage. Assassin's skills are always ready. Warrior needs to charge his. Assassin can spike hard and fast due to front-loaded damage. Warrior spikes are hard and slow by comparison, due to backloaded damage.

In perfect builds on both characters (by the way, I guarantee that nobody here has been giving Assassins perfect builds that are designed to spike a target), Assassins will come out on top, because not only will they be able to spike faster and harder (their perfect spikes are a hell of a lot scarier than a Warrior's), they can do it far more consistently when they kill their current target. If that doesn't make sense to anyone here, good. It proves to me you haven't learned some diabolical tricks in playing Assassin. lol

I'd like this thread not to continue on as a Warrior vs Assassin thread, because there's already one of those around here somewhere...probably with the title of Damage Comparison: Warrior vs Assassin. Talk about anything you'd like, certainly, but please stay away from any Warrior vs Assassin discussions, m'kay?

That sounds really nice, but you didn't give an actual build to compare with.

Using a perfect warrior build, you'd be able to pump out 75dps and spike in less than 1.5s.
See what I did there? I made up a load of bull and didn't give a single skill to indicate what I'm talking about.

Make sure you tell people what you're referring to when you discuss spike frequency, length, power, etc. else it's pointless talk.

Siren · Jul 03, 2006, 06:10 AM // 06:10

I'd be glad to, though I kind of enjoy having builds that not many people know of. lol

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Originally Posted by Winstar

1) I don't believe that there is any assassin spike that happens in under 1 sec. Perhaps 1 attack...but there is no way you chain a series for a spike in under a second.

We're considering spikes to be single skills, correct? That's what I'm seeing when people bring up Evis. I don't see anything that's treating the Evis spike as anything less than 1 second...because most are ignoring Adre charging. And since I can Assassin spike with Impale+Twisting Fangs and exceed the Evis infliction, I treat Twisting Fangs as a 1-second spike, just like how people are treating Evis like one.

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2) GPS->horns->falling spider->twisting is a pretty standard and good sin chain used pretty much at all levels of the game. Could you provide some examples.

I'd be more inclined to go BLS-->Twisting-->Falling Spider-->Death Blossom. I posted the build in the Assassin Build Directory thread, but I'll briefly summarize.

Just like how Exe-->Evis is nowhere near as efficient as Evis-->Exe, combos that feature Twisting Fangs at the very end are nowhere near as efficient as combos that take away that health before the final blow. The Deep Wound at the end of such a combo looks nice, but I've found something like Death Blossom (or even Horns) doesn't have the same kind of killing power when the Deep Wound happens at the end. Which does 80 damage hurt more? 400 max health or 300 max health?

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3) The actual spike portion happens in under 3 easy. With Frenzy up its always under 3 to fire off evis+exe

Just like the actual spike of an actual Assassin spike build is close to 1-2 seconds.

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4) Yes, warriors do need adrenaline before the spike can occur. Assassins can begin immeadiately, but the standard combo (and show me something else please that produces the same output in 1 sec..not being a jerk, i've just never heard of this) GPS->horns->falling spider->twisting

1 second damage output: Impale+Twisting

Build that exceeds the standard combo output: MoI-->Assassin's Promise-->BLS-->Twisting-->Falling Spider-->Death Blossom

Sounds long, I know, but then again, the standard combo isn't so short. I can blast through that A.Promise build these days, too, so what may look like a lousy set-up time takes no more than a few fractions of a second.

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is setup with AoD takes most of the sins energy, and they cannot begin a spike immeadiately and so have their own cooldown time for that and recharge wait as well. So while the sin can begin right away once the intitial use has been made the limits of their energy pool limit the number of spikes in the same way a warrior must build up adren. Assassins skills are simply not always ready.

And see what you've just described as the limitations? Recharge and cost. After the Assassin kills their target, what can they do? Not much. After the A.Promise build kills its target, however? It's going again. That's the build I posted in the Assassin build directory thread. The Chain Killer. I've since tested it in PvP. Works pretty damn well.

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5) The time frame in which a spike actually occurs is relevant imo since the shorter the duration of the actual spiking, the smaller the window of opportunity there is for healing to counteract the spike. Think of any 1,2,3 spike you've ever done. When its crisp and everyone hits together in a smaller window, the target drops. When its not crisp and the damage is spread and the window is larger its is easier to save the target. So in a very important sense a sin doesn't spike faster and harder since they won't deal as much damage in a compressed interval of time.

Spikes have to be crisp, absolutely. I was never arguing otherwise, just like I wasn't arguing that time-frame is entirely irrelevant. What I was saying is that in terms of this discussion, the time-frame of the respective spikes (the actual attack skills themselves) is irrelevant, because whether it be 1 second or 1.33 seconds...it all ultimately still comes down to what type of damage it is (front-loaded versus backloaded).

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Originally Posted by Basra

Assassins spike might come before the warriors, but the damage is actually backloaded because you need a chain. Warriors get the damage+deepwound in right away, or otherwise on the second hit with a very powerful followup, so their damage is frontloaded, or at least not as backloaded as an assassins.

7.2 under frenzy, with an axe. Actually less, but I round. But that's only the first spike that assassins come first in, after that warriors have a pretty big advantage. 7.2 second prep spike vs 15 it takes to recharge twisting. of course, I'd admit that's favoring warrior, but they also have quite a few ways to manipulate adren, while assassins have nothing reliable to manipulate recharge.

I think you're a bit to hung up on the fact warriors can't spike right away. After that initial spike, warriors have a helluva lot more going for them, and you definitly can't call them backloaded.

And herein lies the biggest flaw with your reasoning: the Warrior is spending a little over 7 seconds (best case scenario) building Adrenaline for that spike, while the Assassin may spend 1-2 seconds prepping for their spike. The Assassin very obviously can get their spike out first, and hit the target even harder because the Assassin has all sorts of nasty little hexes that boost/improve damage (Impale, Expose Defenses, Mark of Death, Shadow Shroud, Way of the Fox, MoI). And note how three out of those six hexes are found in Deadly Arts, and how Mark of Instability used to be in Deadly Arts.

Quite honestly, I think those hexes and so forth kick the shit out of the best damage boosters we see in Warrior (Sig of Strength, Warrior's Cunning, etc).

We hear of Assassins being considered melee Mesmers, right? Check out those debuffs. They're there for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Winstar

Then again, i just might not know the diabolical tricks u speak of.

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Originally Posted by Basra

But really Siren, if you have all this wealth of assassin information that makes them better then warriors damage wise, please share it with us. I mean, it's easy for me to believe you know more then the rest of the GW community, including the top 100 guilds, but if you could pass even a bit of it on to us lowly players who STILL haven't learnt the best assassin tricks, or even builds that actually work, I'd be grateful.

Okay, first, you see me mentioning Deadly Arts. The DA line has largely been completely ignored by the entire playerbase. In the Assassin forum on GwG, I count maybe two people, tops, who have built characters around DA (myself and arredondo are really the only two I ever see using DA). Is that because DA sucks, like most people believe, or is it simply that people don't realize Shadow Arts isn't going to do much for an Assassin?

We all love healing and defensive skills, right? That's what Shadow Arts is. And that's why people have flocked to the typical Dagger/CS/Shadow Arts builds. Me on the other hand? I don't give a damn about defenses, because if I get targeted, I'm dead regardless. Dark Escape is pretty much the only Shadow Arts skill I'd consider using; everything else has a very limited use that ultimately doesn't protect you enough.

Remember when Shadow Refuge was a godsend, back during the FPE? That skill alone made it worth to go 10 in Shadow Arts.

Now, however, we have Viper's Defense as the only mildly useful defensive skill.

Death's Charge. Heart of Shadow. Mirrored Stance (wait till you copy Frenzy, right?). Shadow Refuge. Shadow of Haste. Shadowy Burden. Shroud of Distress. Way of Perfection. Way of the Lotus.

I've not seen anyone using those skills, nor have I designed a build that would ever use any of them effectively. I have zero interest in a skill that's going to give me health when I Shadow Step to a foe with higher health than me. I have zero interest in a hex that may very well put me into a Frenzy stance. I have zero interest in a skill that gives me a speed boost then puts me right back where I started. I have zero interest in a skill that's obliterated by Vigorous Spirit.

Now, Assassins are "glass cannons," right? If 90% of the Shadow Arts defensive skills are crap, why bother bringing defense skills at all? Why not strengthen the character with a skill line that has Deadly in the title? After all, an Assassin looks to kill a target as quickly as possible. Deadly Arts assists to that end.

Assassin's Promise. This is probably my favorite Assassin Elite. It allows me to chain-kill. I get to ignore my skill recharges; it makes me feel good about laughing when people point to the 25-second recharge on BLS. A.Promise recharges itself, too. People see that 45-second recharge and scoff. Sucks for them. A.Promise is an amazing skill, and entirely worth its Elite status.

Crippling Dagger/Dancing Dagger. One's a pretty nice snare (cheap, fast recharge) and the other is a great lead attack if someone is still using leads (cheap, fast recharge, respectable damage).

Dark Prison. I don't like the recharge, and I expect it to be changed eventually, but other than that, this skill augments an Assassin's killing power quite nicely. Shadow Step+snare. And since it's a hex, you can launch into BLS-->Horns-->Falling Spider-->Twisting if you're so inclined, which is nice for energy management, because netting a Critical on BLS can often grab something like 22E, which fuels the rest of the combo easily.

Enduring Toxin. It can get removed, sure, but if the target stops, Enduring Toxin becomes a snare, not to mention some (mild) degen. Pretty fun shit if you ask me.

Entangling Asp. It's a bit expensive, but it's got KD and Poison infliction, which is respectable, particularly in a KD Assassin build. If your target starts to run after your lead, hit them with Entangling Asp to put them on the ground. Combine Entangling Asp with Dancing+Crippling Dagger and you've got some fun stuff going on.

Expose Defenses. 10E, but it dooms Guardian. The duration is short, but realistically, a good Assassin should only need 4 seconds to kill the target, using a regular attack chain.

Expunge Enchantments. Not too big of a fan of this one, because it could stand to get buffed a bit, but it's a touch skill enchant stripper, so it bypasses most everything. Perfect for debuffs.

Impale. High Deadly Arts combined with a high DM/CS (10-11-10) and you're looking at crazy damage when you hit Twisting. If the target is still alive (under 50% health), you could use Moebius Strike {E}.

Iron Palm. 10E, but Crippling Dagger costs 5E and inflicts a condition. ~_^

Mantis Touch. Not a fan, but it has its uses.

Mark of Death. It's the Assassin version of Defile Flesh. Again, a fantastic debuff/killing augmentation.

Scorpion Wire. Eh. Needs a buff.

Shameful Fear. Check out Arredondo's 20-Degen Assassin thread in the Assassin forum here. He's rocking out with Shameful Fear.

Shroud of Silence. I've locked down Orison of Healing mid-cast. Casters need spells to defend themselves. Shroud of Silence screws them over.

Signet of Shadows. Eh...not feeling this one so much.

Siphon Speed. It's cheap, it's fast, it's got a great recharge. 20% snare. 20% speed boost. Pretty remarkable skill. If it gets removed, you can re-apply it in about a second.

Siphon Strength. The buff was nice, but I think 33% Crit rate isn't very logical (attacking a Warrior doesn't make much sense). It was far more useful back when it boosted your damage output by the amount stolen from the enemy. I'd like to see it changed back, even if that means reducing the recent damage mitigation. Even something like "reduces the target foe's damage output by X, and increases your own by half of X" would be nice.

Way of the Empty Palm. Not terribly spectacular, but it has some uses.

---

But what kinds of builds can be used, ask Basra and Red Locust. Let's run with an obvious example then. Assassin's Promise, Mark of Instability, Black Lotus Strike, Twisting Fangs, Falling Spider, Death Blossom, Crit Eye, Rez Sig.

The chain goes MoI-->AP-->BLS-->Twisting-->Spider-->Death Blossom

The prep time is approximately 1.75-2.0 seconds (cast times plus aftercast). After the hexes are set, blowing through the chain takes little more than 4 seconds, with damage quickly increasing. Black Lotus Strike fuels my energy (18E+Crits) and provides some nice starter damage (usually 40). Twisting hits for around 100 damage to start, plus Deep Wound and Bleed, plus a KD from MoI. Falling Spider regularly hits for 50-60 damage, plus Poison. Death Blossom hits for 80+.

40+100+55+80=275

Those numbers are on the lower end of the output spectrum, by the way. I'm being very conservative with them, heh.

Oh, and factor in the lower max health from Deep Wound earlier in the combo, and the 55+80 damage from Falling Spider+Death Blossom is taking out much more than just 55+80.

---

Or how about Impale, Expose Defenses, BLS, Twisting, Moebius Strike, Death Blossom, Crit Eye, Rez Sig.

Impale-->Expose-->BLS-->Twisting-->Moebius-->Death Blossom

Your hex prep time is similar to the A.Promise build. Roughly 2 seconds, aftercast accounted for.

Similar performance to previous build. BLS strike does 40. Twisting however does 100 (from Dual Attack), plus 54 from Impale (10-11 Deadly Arts), plus Deep Wound. If the target is below 50% health, Moebius Strike is another +35 damage, usually hitting for 45. If need be, you follow it with Death Blossom, which hits for 80.

40+100+54+45+80=319

Again, being conservative with these numbers, and Deep Wound isn't factored in yet. Critical hits aren't being taken into account, either.

Add Deep Wound to that and you just killed a fresh character.

---

Those are my two favorite builds to run I think, and I find both of them to be quite, quite effective--particularly Assassin's Promise. The A.Promise version is my preferred build, because I love chain-killing in-game.

I think I covered a few things at least. Hopefully. I consolidated Basra and Winstar's replies a little bit so I could address both of them at the same time (and hello to Red Locust).

Regarding what I've said...the replies here are either going to laugh at me or insult me, I'm sure. I'd expect none less from you guys. ~_^

Thom · Jul 03, 2006, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Red Locust, sadly a certain DPS build came to mind as soon as you said that. My build is up in about 4 seconds, but should do about 75 dps a second consistantly when you get there:-P.

Without reading the whole thread or having much experience with assassins, here are my problems with the class:
1)Lack of pressure/spike flexiblity warriors have.
2)Dual weakness; hurt by both anti-melee and anti-caster spells. Enchant removal, enegy drain, blinds, cripples and a wide variety of hexes make me nervous.
3)Lack of a reliable heal. I like healing sig and troll better than any I get with an assassin.
4)Armor, melee range can be a dangerous place.

kryshnysh · Jul 03, 2006, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

We're considering spikes to be single skills, correct? That's what I'm seeing when people bring up Evis. I don't see anything that's treating the Evis spike as anything less than 1 second...because most are ignoring Adre charging. And since I can Assassin spike with Impale+Twisting Fangs and exceed the Evis infliction, I treat Twisting Fangs as a 1-second spike, just like how people are treating Evis like one.

No. Spikes are very fast delivery of damage, in the case of evis->exec, two skills. Under frenzy this is under one second. Nobody counts adrenaline charging because it's the same as energy charging, hacking at the enemy, etc., preparation for the spike, not the spike itself.

If you don't understand how people are arriving at their 1 second spike time, please don't make bad assumptions. Spike time is from Eviscerate to Executioner's while under frenzy (the standard spike). Why this time frame? Because thats how much time the monk has to react before the damage and deep wound crash in (the 100 point health loss to deep wound shows up on the next hit, not on the hit causing it).

By comparison, Impale is a hex and thus shows up on the health bar, so I would count spike length as either hit + 0.25s + 0.75s (aftercast time) + 1.33s (twisting time) or time from twisting to next damage (1.33s). Considering you probably are hitting an offhand attack immediately before the hit of twisting and after the impale, I would likely see your spike as longer, but even if you let the offhand hit a while back, your spike is 1.33-2.33-3+ seconds.

Quote:

Just like how Exe-->Evis is nowhere near as efficient as Evis-->Exe, combos that feature Twisting Fangs at the very end are nowhere near as efficient as combos that take away that health before the final blow. The Deep Wound at the end of such a combo looks nice, but I've found something like Death Blossom (or even Horns) doesn't have the same kind of killing power when the Deep Wound happens at the end. Which does 80 damage hurt more? 400 max health or 300 max health?

Maximum health is readjusted on the hit after the deep wound is applied. You probably understand that, but your wording makes me wonder a bit. The reason Exec follows Evis is because you then get the huge damage hit from exec combined with the deep wound, appearing as 150-200 damage on the health bar in one hit.

To be a bit more clear. Have 400/500 life and get hit with a deep wound? You will have 300/400 before applying the damage from the next hit.

Quote:

And see what you've just described as the limitations? Recharge and cost. After the Assassin kills their target, what can they do? Not much. After the A.Promise build kills its target, however? It's going again. That's the build I posted in the Assassin build directory thread. The Chain Killer. I've since tested it in PvP. Works pretty damn well.

As you can see throughout this thread, people will often ask... what type of PvP? I'm very much for showing the value of assassins in non-GvG environments, as my original post about front-loaded damage was an attempt to point out strengths of assassins that actually are more important in other PvP arenas. That said, there is a world of difference between AB, RA, TA, HA, and GvG.

Quote:

Quite honestly, I think those hexes and so forth kick the shit out of the best damage boosters we see in Warrior (Sig of Strength, Warrior's Cunning, etc).

Quite honestly, I think Sig of Strength kicks the shit out of an empty skillbar. I definitely don't run Sig of Strength, and I generally won't touch Warrior's Cunning either. Being better than trash doesn't mean its not still trash. Having 3 pennies makes you richer than having just 2 pennies, but that doesn't make you rich.

Quote:

But what kinds of builds can be used, ask Basra and Red Locust. Let's run with an obvious example then. Assassin's Promise, Mark of Instability, Black Lotus Strike, Twisting Fangs, Falling Spider, Death Blossom, Crit Eye, Rez Sig.

The chain goes MoI-->AP-->BLS-->Twisting-->Spider-->Death Blossom

The prep time is approximately 1.75-2.0 seconds (cast times plus aftercast). After the hexes are set, blowing through the chain takes little more than 4 seconds, with damage quickly increasing. Black Lotus Strike fuels my energy (18E+Crits) and provides some nice starter damage (usually 40). Twisting hits for around 100 damage to start, plus Deep Wound and Bleed, plus a KD from MoI. Falling Spider regularly hits for 50-60 damage, plus Poison. Death Blossom hits for 80+.

40+100+55+80=275

Those numbers are on the lower end of the output spectrum, by the way. I'm being very conservative with them, heh.

Oh, and factor in the lower max health from Deep Wound earlier in the combo, and the 55+80 damage from Falling Spider+Death Blossom is taking out much more than just 55+80.

Well given no attribute numbers, I'm going to assume you're using the attributes listed with Impale first (10-11-10, I have no other idea what that could mean), and assuming assassin's promise recharges every single time...

Your average is a bit high. 242.31 damage every 7.833 seconds, or 30.93 dps. Not including deep wound. For comparison, an axe warrior with frenzy is 39.99 dps, including no other skills. Please note that I'm counting aftercast as 0.75 seconds per hex, which brings your total pre-cast time to 2.5 seconds.

If I optimize your attributes a bit (not fully), to 16 Dagger Mastery and 10 apiece in Critical Strikes and Deadly Arts, I get 37.62 dps (294.74 per 7.833 seconds), still not even as good as an axe warrior not using eviscerate or executioner's. This doesn't include Deep Wound, but its still doesn't match even axe without the two standard skills.

Edit: By comparison, the combo used in above posts such as by Isil'Zha actually is within 2 dps of a frenzy axe warrior with two adrenal skills (axe warrior wins, but at least its closer). Slight differences in how I calculated dps between the builds though as yours requires a kill for Assassin's Promise, so I discounted degen, whereas I left it up constantly for the other build since it requires no deaths and can thus act as true pressure.

Quote:

Regarding what I've said...the replies here are either going to laugh at me or insult me, I'm sure. I'd expect none less from you guys. ~_^

after a quote like:

Quote:

Talk about anything you'd like, certainly, but please stay away from any Warrior vs Assassin discussions, m'kay?

makes me feel you deserve far less courtesy than I've shown. Want people to be polite to you? You can start by being polite yourself.

Isil`Zha · Jul 03, 2006, 07:39 AM // 07:39

You have a serious flaw in your calculation.

Energy comes pre-charged. Adrenaline does not. Apples and Oranges.

kryshnysh · Jul 03, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

You have a serious flaw in your calculation.

Energy comes pre-charged. Adrenaline does not. Apples and Oranges.

Reread the warriors. No adrenal skills were used in that calculation.

In fact, if you read back through the thread. I was the one who stated initially that assassins tend to front-load damage a lot. They are indeed Apples and Oranges in one sense, that sense being TA, RA, and AB type environments, were the battles are over very quickly and thus the amount of time where that matters is large. In GvG, battles are generally quite protracted, and the amount of time "lost" waiting for adrenaline to build up is insignificant.

Thom · Jul 03, 2006, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Siren's example build has a total of 7 offensive skills and a rez sig.

1)If you don't get your kill because say RoF, mend or a hex removal is cast, the whole chain is dead.

2)You have no utility, so if someone has a speed buff or a blind you might as well pack it up.

3)You have no utility, so why shouldn't I just bring a warrior with significant damage and a multiplicity of utility (ready interrupts, speed buffs, knockdowns...).

4)What exactly is the plan if you see a cripper, flashbot or even a warrior. The warriors armor will mitigate some of the damage while heal sig or endure will certainly postpone death.

This isn't a GvG build, definitely won't work in HA or TA. That leaves RA and AB, which is kind of amusing as this type of build would be eaten up by touch rangers. Now if this is meant to go along with a team spike, I'd take eviserate.

The only thing assassins have going for them is mobility. That's why they are worth running in GvG and that is most of the reason people go with an assassin secondary. The basic problem with assassins is the same as issues with hammer warriors, everything worth doing tends to be either skill intensive or energy intensive (at least this is my experience). The best uses I've seen have been creative ways to use the movement skills to isolate and assassinate.

Lord Dark Genie · Jul 03, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Last time I checked, Twisting Fangs had a 15s recharge time. That means you won't spike more than once every 15s unless you use something for quicker recharge.

Adrenaline is just the same. It's a recharge timer, but rather than being a constant time, it depends on how fast you can hit stuff.

If you bring TTL, you're going to be able to spike quickly at the start, and with a good frequency, while assassins don't have an equivalent non-elite, as far as I know.

Building up adrenaline and setting up a spike is not the same. You can build adren on one target and then spike another one (and you WILL do that to avoid prot as much as possible).

Quote:

And see what you've just described as the limitations? Recharge and cost. After the Assassin kills their target, what can they do? Not much. After the A.Promise build kills its target, however? It's going again. That's the build I posted in the Assassin build directory thread. The Chain Killer. I've since tested it in PvP. Works pretty damn well.

Assassins promise is bad for assassins. Considering you can't kill your target in less than 1 second from the moment you put the hex up, nothing prevents the target to call it on vent, get some prot, even if you are in a hex heavy build.

If you don't get the kill you're stuck with an elite recharging for 45s...

fb2000 · Jul 03, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

i just recently started playing with assa (and thought id jump on the pve wagon with it first ^^).

what I was wondering is, how much per average does an assassin hit for, ie, no skills used, just idle hacking at the target? from what ive seen, warriors tend to hit for noticeably higher numbers.

would be interesting if someone compared the averaged dmgs of axe (or hammer) warrior vs assassin (no skills)

and tbh, this thread is severily becoming an assassins flame/defend thing ^_^. I also have a problem with people saying "we are talking about gvg here", when clearly this is not the gvg section but the general pvp one oO. u could check the name of the thread too

DieInBasra · Jul 03, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Yeah, the thing is anything can "work" in RA or AB, since the level of competition there is so low. You don't really have a marker of if a build is good or not because in AB it could just be that 4 people are good and they're holding you up, or in RA you could have just met some poeple who just started the game. Saying "oh man, I can kill a monk in 5 seconds in RA", and "oh man, I can kill a monk in 5 seconds in GvG" are hugely differant. The RA monk could have been the DW healer, but in GvG, as long as you're at least on the ladder you're going to get a much higher average skill level, and that will increase as you go up the ladder(der), so your build/skills need to be top-notch if you want to get anywhere

I guess what's being said can be applied to HA as well, but I don't take it too seriously. That's just me though. I don't think there is enough room for creativity due to all the gimicks and how the maps are set up. I'm sure other people have differant opinions, though.

Winstar · Jul 03, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Hi Siren,

This may repeat a bit, so srry..

No, spikes arent single skills. For warriors its a string of charged adrenaline skills unloaded quickly while under frenzy, for sins its a the combo chain they have setup. As others have said, the number of strikes in the chain tends to be fewer but each being more potent. Thus you can compress the damage into a smaller window.

I think you are still looking at the wrong thing by concentrating on the fact that warriors need to build adren first. Yes the sin can start more quickly, but generally will have a lot of cool down time between spikes. What matters more is not how soon from the start of the match that you can begin your spike, but how quickly you can unload once you are ready. Thus adren I think is a red herring. I'd really have to see the promise chain working in an appropriate setting (i.e in a GvG match with monks on top of the heal). I can see that going through in RA maybe, but thats about it. I do however think they are interesting builds that would be fun to try out.

From, kryshnysh

"makes me feel you deserve far less courtesy than I've shown. Want people to be polite to you? You can start by being polite yourself."

^agree

kryshnysh · Jul 03, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by fb2000

what I was wondering is, how much per average does an assassin hit for, ie, no skills used, just idle hacking at the target? from what ive seen, warriors tend to hit for noticeably higher numbers.

would be interesting if someone compared the averaged dmgs of axe (or hammer) warrior vs assassin (no skills)

+15% inherent, +20% customized damage factored in:

16 Dagger Mastery, 0 Critical Strikes: 1423 DPM, 23.7 DPS
16 Dagger Mastery, 13 Critical Strikes: 1573 DPM, 26.2 DPS
16 Axe Mastery: 1599.6 DPM, 26.66 DPS
16 Sword Mastery: 1536 DPM, 25.6 DPS
16 Hammer Mastery: 1761 DPM, 29.3 DPS
Critical hits and double strikes are accounted for. The way I counted double strikes was upping the damage per "hit" (1.33 seconds) rather than upping the attack rate. For more numbers for warriors: Why Nuking Sucks

At 12 Dagger Mastery (0 crit strike) and Axe Mastery the figures are 18.4 and 21.7 DPS respectively, a significant difference as the Dagger Mastery changes the double strike rate. For the 12 attribute figures I also used guildwiki's 17.4% crit chance, while at 16 I used the 24% Ensign used for Why Nuking Sucks (the difference between 22.9% at guildwiki at 24% is approximately 0.2 dps on axe and dagger).

As for use of assassins in PvP, I would like to see good statements for assassin use outside of GvG, but they should be prefaced with what type of PvP they are useful for. Stating a general PvP use doesn't really cut it when (what most consider) the most competitive form of PvP (GvG) doesn't see them used at all in that fashion. I'm no expert at assassins in other forms of PvP, and I'd like to see good input as to how they can be used there.

For instance, assassins are quite useful in AB because they can take out those who stray away from groups. They are useful for solo capping. This usefulness is limited because good teams will not have many people straying alone from groups and there will be few avenues to sneak through for solo capping. Disclaimer: I don't play an assassin nor do I play a lot of alliance battles, this is just an example statement and could use a lot of tweaking.

Assassins are useful in TA because.... or not particularly useful because...

RA is the epitome of "anything can work" so I'm not sure a lot can be said for that (although I'm sure something can as some people have an easier time getting to 5 wins than others, etc.)

TheOneMephisto · Jul 03, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by fb2000

what I was wondering is, how much per average does an assassin hit for, ie, no skills used, just idle hacking at the target? from what ive seen, warriors tend to hit for noticeably higher numbers.

would be interesting if someone compared the averaged dmgs of axe (or hammer) warrior vs assassin (no skills)

and tbh, this thread is severily becoming an assassins flame/defend thing ^_^. I also have a problem with people saying "we are talking about gvg here", when clearly this is not the gvg section but the general pvp one oO. u could check the name of the thread too

Those numbers won't mean anything. Average DPS and spike damage are much more important.

This is what I think. Assassins are better for single character spiking, as in spiking with little/no assistance. Warriors are better for spiking with assistance, such as another warrior, and are better for DPS/pressure.

This is why assassins are used so often as base gankers, because a) they can shadow step out of danger, letting them hack away for a longer time, and b) they can kill an NPC is almost 1 attack chain. Assassins generally aren't as useful in straight fights, because they give monks a long time to react to their "spikes". Assassins can then also be very useful in 4v4 fights. This is because if there is only one monk, there's noone to react to the spike, assuming that the monk is KD'd by horns. Then, the assassin can spike him down solo.

Warriors are therefore more effective in straight 8v8 or 7v7 fights. Here, there is more emphasis on spiking before the other monk can react, since there are at least 2 monks. They can also apply pressure, which is very useful in 8v8 for preparing to spike, since a monk can't react with no energy. Warriors can also be used for defensive purposes, forcing characters to kite.

PS: WM vs mn game 2 is a perfect example of how assassins are meant to be used.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 03, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by kryshnysh

+15% inherent, +20% customized damage factored in:

16 Dagger Mastery, 0 Critical Strikes: 1402 DPM, 23.4 DPS
16 Dagger Mastery, 13 Critical Strikes: 1549 DPM, 25.8 DPS
16 Axe Mastery: 1599.6 DPM, 26.66 DPS
16 Sword Mastery: 1536 DPM, 25.6 DPS
16 Hammer Mastery: 1761 DPM, 29.3 DPS
Critical hits and double strikes are accounted for. The way I counted double strikes was upping the damage per "hit" (1.33 seconds) rather than upping the attack rate. For more numbers for warriors: Why Nuking Sucks

At 12 Dagger Mastery (0 crit strike) and Axe Mastery the figures are 18.1 and 21.7 DPS respectively, a significant difference as the Dagger Mastery changes the double strike rate. For the 12 attribute figures I also used guildwiki's 17.4% crit chance, while at 16 I used the 24% Ensign used for Why Nuking Sucks (the difference between 22.9% at guildwiki at 24% is approximately 0.2 dps on axe and dagger).

You might want to put the DPS while under frenzyfor the wars, since frenzy should be on every serious warrior's skillbar. Otherwise, nice.