Curse

Isil`Zha · Jun 30, 2006, 06:18 AM // 06:18

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Originally Posted by DieInBasra

Only barely. A mesmer can pretty easily sit on you with enchant drains, the monks has 4 seconds to react which defeats the entire purpose of a spike, the damage backloaded, and it requires you to hit 4 times in a row to have any effect, as well as your target has to be away from other characters, not an easy thing to manage after you catch them by surprise the first time.

I've run into plenty Mesmers with enchant drains, and still come out on top. Most people don't seem to realize that Shadow's Refuge counts as an enchantment, and can activate GPS....

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It'll let the warrior build adren, the only reason you can kill a warrior as an assassin is because A) he sits their and fights back

So then you admit in a straight up fight, the Warrior loses.

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and B) It takes him a while to have adren for his combo, but you can hit him off the bat.

Exactly, and that's why I win - straight up fight and the Warrior can't get in his damage fast enough. You're also assuming I haven't totally disabled him with blinding powder and unseen fury.

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In an assassin vs monk senario, the assassin is never going to kill him without the monk being totally unaware, and in an assassin+monk vs warrior+monk, the warrior and monk are going to win, or at least be better off (I don't know if a single war can ever kill a single monk without mes effects) .

I kill monks all the time... usually by holding off on my knockdown in the combo chain to hit em when they try to heal. Of course, I have a good Temple Strike build that absolutely murders Monks and spell casters of any kind. As for Assassin+Monk vs Warrior+Monk... just did this last night, except it was me as Monk, my friend as Assassin, vs Monk+3 Warriors. My friend was able to take out the Monk first, then all three Warriors while I kept him alive. Any attempts to attack me were thwarted by him, usually with a well placed Caltrops - that and it usually takes 4+ people to take my Monk down anyway. When I have my healing setup to heal for 270+ for 5 energy, it tends to make it easy to keep just one person alive....

QED

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We mean a warrior has a much better chance of getting past a monk, and can survive though more mitigation, and can generally overextend for the monk kill much more safetly then an assassin could, and keep in their midlines without stressing your own monks that much, unlike an assassin.

Why can't this be true for an Assassin? You said "unlike an assassin" but didn't actually provide the reasoning for this statement.

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In a team game the warrior is much better, in a 1v1, typical gvg assassin vs say, typical gvg shock axe, the sin might win.

Especially if it's specifically an anti-warrior build.

But really, if you want a team scenario, just to further prove my point, I'd go with two Assassins and no monk.

One Assassin will have Temple Strike, the other will have the setup already described....

That monk will go down fast, and during that time the Warrior will have been completely disabled, and will now have two Assassins on him, the second one being able to disable the Warrior as well. I already know for a fact that my Assassin build, especially anti-warrior specific, can take down a Warrior, two will make it a slaugter.

Of course, the problem with adding in a team dynamic is you can literally come up with nearly an infinite number of outcomes and we could go on and on and on countering each other's examples.

DieInBasra · Jun 30, 2006, 02:11 PM // 14:11

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I kill monks all the time... usually by holding off on my knockdown in the combo chain to hit em when they try to heal. Of course, I have a good Temple Strike build that absolutely murders Monks and spell casters of any kind.

You can kill bad monks with assassins, sure. I never said anything about that. Every single time I've come up against assassin in RA, (never in GvG, yet) I just kite. They might get off the GPS, but after that I know exactly what they're doing and it never end favorabley for the assassins.I've been hit with Temple strike and just kited my ass off, he never got a second hit in, and I was still able to sneek ninja rofs. And I'm not a good monk.

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So then you admit in a straight up fight, the Warrior loses.

You'll win if you bring a specifically antiwarrior build that only works when the warrior is unsupported, sure. If both of you came to the fight with full adren, the warrior would rape your face. So you're right, assassins have that one edge that allowes them to 1v1 unsupported warriors. I don't really see why this matters.

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Why can't this be true for an Assassin? You said "unlike an assassin" but didn't actually provide the reasoning for this statement.

Less armour, worse support skills (healsig, endure), the need for 4 attack skills while the warrior has room for more utility. The fact it's over 100 armour vs 70 armour, so if a team falls back and catchs you overextended you're about as squishy as a monk. A warrior can sit in the mid/backline of an enemy team and feel relitively safe as long as he's not in frenzy mode. This can't be said of the assassin. You don't see too many mesmer sitting in opponants mid/backlines unless they ran in for blackout, and then they also had distortion.

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I've run into plenty Mesmers with enchant drains, and still come out on top. Most people don't seem to realize that Shadow's Refuge counts as an enchantment, and can activate GPS....

I've used that trick before when I play my AoD assassin in RA, but that leaves you up the creek without a paddle, or rather overextened without aod to get your ass out of thier.

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Of course, the problem with adding in a team dynamic is you can literally come up with nearly an infinite number of outcomes and we could go on and on and on countering each other's examples

Sure. But citeing Temple strike as the leet antimonk skill won't get you far. Most have CoP, which isn't effected by Daze, and most have rof, which they can use inbetween your attacks easily.

Isil`Zha · Jun 30, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

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Originally Posted by DieInBasra

You can kill bad monks with assassins, sure. I never said anything about that. Every single time I've come up against assassin in RA, (never in GvG, yet) I just kite. They might get off the GPS, but after that I know exactly what they're doing and it never end favorabley for the assassins.I've been hit with Temple strike and just kited my ass off, he never got a second hit in, and I was still able to sneek ninja rofs. And I'm not a good monk.

Because, you know, I don't bring anti-kiting with a Temple Strike build.. oh wait, I do.

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You'll win if you bring a specifically antiwarrior build that only works when the warrior is unsupported, sure. If both of you came to the fight with full adren, the warrior would rape your face. So you're right, assassins have that one edge that allowes them to 1v1 unsupported warriors. I don't really see why this matters.

It doesn't have to be specifically anti-warrior. I could simply have one skill, Blinding Powder. Now even a full adren Warrior is screwed. The whole point was that Assassins aren't as "weak" as a lot of people make them out to be. Of course, it's not like I've never taken out many a Warrior without any anti-warrior specific skills...

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Less armour, worse support skills (healsig, endure), the need for 4 attack skills while the warrior has room for more utility. The fact it's over 100 armour vs 70 armour, so if a team falls back and catchs you overextended you're about as squishy as a monk. A warrior can sit in the mid/backline of an enemy team and feel relitively safe as long as he's not in frenzy mode. This can't be said of the assassin. You don't see too many mesmer sitting in opponants mid/backlines unless they ran in for blackout, and then they also had distortion.

If a team falls back and catches me overextended, I get the hell out of there. I'm not stupid. As for the back lines of the enemy, that's exactly what I do most of the time with my Assassin - teleport in, or run in, on someone in the back lines, take them out quickly, and get out of there.

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I've used that trick before when I play my AoD assassin in RA, but that leaves you up the creek without a paddle, or rather overextened without aod to get your ass out of thier.

Only if you let them kite you too deep, but then, I'm not stupid and know when to disengage. Really, those types of enchantment stripping Memsers are nothing more than a minor annoyance to me.

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Sure. But citeing Temple strike as the leet antimonk skill won't get you far. Most have CoP, which isn't effected by Daze, and most have rof, which they can use inbetween your attacks easily.

...and now your unsupported Warrior goes down, leaving it two on one vs the Monk. CoP and rof won't save you forever, I've never had rof be that big of an annoyance in taking down Monks. See, it literally can go on and on forever.

kryshnysh · Jun 30, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Assassins are no replacement for a warrior in GvG. Comparing them and saying you can take one 1v1 is a horrible comparison. Sure, you can take your average warrior 1v1, and I can take the average assassin in AB/TA 1v1 with my warrior, and warrior is my second worst profession to play, after assassin.

At this point, I think the jury is still (somewhat) out as to whether the best assassins or best warriors will do better in some situations. Why? Because we don't really have enough people who are good enough with assassins compared to warriors. Warriors have been out over a year. Assassins two months. Who is gong to be more experienced at their position on average between those? Usually a warrior. And thats what my experience bears, warriors tend to outdo assassins in many cases in GvG where I would think the assassin would at least hold their own.

They don't have the armor to overextend in the same sense as a warrior, although most seem to now bring Dark Escape to allow them to overextend more. I'm not sure if this allows them to overextend as much as a warrior, but it might even allow more overextension.

They can't compress a spike the same. Their damage is rather extended and in chains that take many seconds to unload, rather than immediate.

They frontload their damage a bit more, needing no build-up, giving them a slight advantage in 1v1 vs. a warrior in that sense.

They have a movement advantage with AoD generally (and other shadowstepping).

They are both melee, and both do a good bit of damage.

Assassins rely upon chains more than warriors, feeling more pain from the usual warrior hate (blind, guardian, etc.).

I've not actually seen any math on dual strikes and thus can't compare numbers. I would like to see some, even though I'll likely miss it as I pay so little attention to assassins.

Greedy Gus · Jun 30, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

If the discussion has dissolved into talking about owning people in random arena or alliance battles, I doubt it's going to get anywhere interesting.

Isil`Zha · Jun 30, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

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Originally Posted by kryshnysh

Assassins are no replacement for a warrior in GvG. Comparing them and saying you can take one 1v1 is a horrible comparison. Sure, you can take your average warrior 1v1, and I can take the average assassin in AB/TA 1v1 with my warrior, and warrior is my second worst profession to play, after assassin.

No one here is claiming that Assassins are a replacement for Warriors. My point is that they're more useful than "just ganking NPCs." They can gank players of all types just as well. Which is what an Assassin should do anyway... suprise someone, take em out rather quickly, and get out of there.

Jagan Vastary · Jun 30, 2006, 07:34 PM // 19:34

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

I've run into plenty Mesmers with enchant drains, and still come out on top. Most people don't seem to realize that Shadow's Refuge counts as an enchantment, and can activate GPS....

Don't assume that we're idiots. In GvG, attacking monks without displacement as your lifeline often is a huge mistake.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Exactly, and that's why I win - straight up fight and the Warrior can't get in his damage fast enough. You're also assuming I haven't totally disabled him with blinding powder and unseen fury.

Please, this is mainly a discussion about assassins in GvG, I don't care if your RA build pwnzors warriors.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

that and it usually takes 4+ people to take my Monk down anyway. When I have my healing setup to heal for 270+ for 5 energy, it tends to make it easy to keep just one person alive....

Pat yourself on the back some more? Backbreaker chain = gg?

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

QED

Give me a break.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Especially if it's specifically an anti-warrior build.

GvG. Not RAs.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

But really, if you want a team scenario, just to further prove my point, I'd go with two Assassins and no monk.

One Assassin will have Temple Strike, the other will have the setup already described....

That monk will go down fast, and during that time the Warrior will have been completely disabled, and will now have two Assassins on him, the second one being able to disable the Warrior as well.

I'd go with 1 air E/Mo and 1 warrior, blinding flash temple strike guy, draw conditions on warrior. You lose. We can play this build -> counterbuild thing all day, but it is pointless.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Of course, the problem with adding in a team dynamic is you can literally come up with nearly an infinite number of outcomes and we could go on and on and on countering each other's examples.

Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Because, you know, I don't bring anti-kiting with a Temple Strike build.. oh wait, I do.

Because, you know, I don't bring guardian when I monk. Oh wait.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

It doesn't have to be specifically anti-warrior. I could simply have one skill, Blinding Powder.

Draw conditions.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Now even a full adren Warrior is screwed. The whole point was that Assassins aren't as "weak" as a lot of people make them out to be. Of course, it's not like I've never taken out many a Warrior without any anti-warrior specific skills...

Alright, I'm getting sick of this. Let's take a more likely example of assassin in base in GvG. The team sends back an air E/Mo. The most succesful attack I've seen an assassin pull against a flashbot is CoP refuge to get rid of flash then displacement in and combo on the e/mo, but even that's not a guaranteed kill, and should really only work one time.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

If a team falls back and catches me overextended, I get the hell out of there. I'm not stupid.

Neither is your enemy, knockdowns, snares, bodyblocks. If a team wants to kill you, they aren't going to let you out easily.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

...and now your unsupported Warrior goes down, leaving it two on one vs the Monk. CoP and rof won't save you forever, I've never had rof be that big of an annoyance in taking down Monks. See, it literally can go on and on forever.

I'm not sure I would go a 1 War 1 Monk split unless it is a smite monk...but really, CoP will save you, especially since temple strike has a high energy cost and a high recharge. Also, guardian totally screws temple strike builds in my experience.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

No one here is claiming that Assassins are a replacement for Warriors. My point is that they're more useful than "just ganking NPCs." They can gank players of all types just as well.

This hasn't really been up to debate. Assassins are good in situations where enemy teams don't have warrior hate and where enemy teams don't have monks. If either of those is present, a warrior will pretty much always do a better job.

Isil`Zha · Jun 30, 2006, 10:03 PM // 22:03

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Originally Posted by Jagan Vastary

Don't assume that we're idiots. In GvG, attacking monks without displacement as your lifeline often is a huge mistake.

I didn't mean to imply to.

But we were talking about a mesmer here, not a monk, but oh well.

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Please, this is mainly a discussion about assassins in GvG, I don't care if your RA build pwnzors warriors.

I've never used that build in RA...

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Pat yourself on the back some more? Backbreaker chain = gg?

What? You said something couldn't be done, I provded a counter argument with evidence. And your counter is... a sarcastic remark. Concession Accepted.

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Give me a break.

No! *stab*

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GvG. Not RAs.

Nice, that's a straw man since none of this had anything to do with Random Arenas, but yeah...

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I'd go with 1 air E/Mo and 1 warrior, blinding flash temple strike guy, draw conditions on warrior. You lose. We can play this build -> counterbuild thing all day, but it is pointless.

Agreed.

I didn't see it as a need to reply to the E/Mo statement above since we already agree we can play the Build -> Counterbuild all day.

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Because, you know, I don't bring guardian when I monk. Oh wait.

Because, you know, Assassins don't have skills that make it so they can't be blocked or evaded. Oh wait.

This just goes with the build -> counterbuild ad nausium, so yeah...

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Draw conditions.

Again... Build... Counterbuild...

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Alright, I'm getting sick of this. Let's take a more likely example of assassin in base in GvG. The team sends back an air E/Mo. The most succesful attack I've seen an assassin pull against a flashbot is CoP refuge to get rid of flash then displacement in and combo on the e/mo, but even that's not a guaranteed kill, and should really only work one time.

Round and round we go...

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Neither is your enemy, knockdowns, snares, bodyblocks. If a team wants to kill you, they aren't going to let you out easily.

I don't assume them to be. But instantanous teleportation can't be stopped by anything. Especially if I case them into their lines, where canceling an AoD will put me way out of range of anything.

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I'm not sure I would go a 1 War 1 Monk split unless it is a smite monk...but really, CoP will save you, especially since temple strike has a high energy cost and a high recharge. Also, guardian totally screws temple strike builds in my experience.

It was the example used "against" my Assassin, so I evened the odds.

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This hasn't really been up to debate. Assassins are good in situations where enemy teams don't have warrior hate and where enemy teams don't have monks. If either of those is present, a warrior will pretty much always do a better job.

Again, I'm not saying an Assassin will replace a Warrior, it has it's own position to fill. In the whole team dynamic thing it just seems people don't really know where exactly to place it yet. Perhaps more of a "jack of all trades" when it comes to what an Assassin can do in combat terms.

I'm not trying to downplay Warriors at all, my first chracter is a Warrior, it just annoys me in-game when everyone thinks lowly of Assassins, which is clearly untrue.

DieInBasra · Jun 30, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

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I don't assume them to be. But instantanous teleportation can't be stopped by anything. Especially if I case them into their lines, where canceling an AoD will put me way out of range of anything.

We already agreed that a mesmer hardly paying attention to an assassin serverly limits your AoD use. Besides that, you have to AoD out as soon as your targeted, which means you can't go back in for 20 seconds. That means your dps goes out the window. If you're not doing dps and you can't spike, what are you there for?

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Again, I'm not saying an Assassin will replace a Warrior, it has it's own position to fill. In the whole team dynamic thing it just seems people don't really know where exactly to place it yet. Perhaps more of a "jack of all trades" when it comes to what an Assassin can do in combat terms.

And that role is maybe as a base ganker. In combat they're too much of a liability, and don't do anything other classes can't do better.

Jagan Vastary · Jul 01, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

I didn't mean to imply to.

But we were talking about a mesmer here, not a monk, but oh well.

This:

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Originally Posted by Jagan Vastary

Don't assume that we're idiots. In GvG, attacking monks without displacement as your lifeline often is a huge mistake.

Is in response to this:

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Most people don't seem to realize that Shadow's Refuge counts as an enchantment, and can activate GPS....

Using refuge as an enchant when spiking, generally, not a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

I've never used that build in RA...

Where else would you use blinding powder? It seems almost exclusively an RA skill.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

What? You said something couldn't be done, I provded a counter argument with evidence. And your counter is... a sarcastic remark. Concession Accepted.

Once again, I am speaking of GvG. Beating scrubs in TA is no way to prove a classes abilities.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Nice, that's a straw man since none of this had anything to do with Random Arenas, but yeah...

You wouldn't build an anti-warrior assassin in GvG. Other classes do the job better, so I assumed your anti-warrior build is for RAs.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Because, you know, Assassins don't have skills that make it so they can't be blocked or evaded. Oh wait.

This just goes with the build -> counterbuild ad nausium, so yeah...

Except that the can't be blocked/evaded assassin abilities are pretty poor in GvG. I don't need to provide a counterbuild because the skills aren't worth running in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Again... Build... Counterbuild...

Is it really build > counterbuild when everybody carries these skills? The fact of the matter is that compared to a very common counter to blinding powder, draw conditions, blinding powder just seems like garbage compared to say prodigy powered blinding flash.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

I don't assume them to be. But instantanous teleportation can't be stopped by anything. Especially if I case them into their lines, where canceling an AoD will put me way out of range of anything.

Yeah, and this is why AoD is pretty much the only assassin elite that you can take. It is extremely easy to shut down in a standard balanced build however, especially considering monks often carry drain enchant themselves, which makes me not like it nearly as much.

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

It was the example used "against" my Assassin, so I evened the odds.

Your example would lose though...

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Again, I'm not saying an Assassin will replace a Warrior, it has it's own position to fill. In the whole team dynamic thing it just seems people don't really know where exactly to place it yet. Perhaps more of a "jack of all trades" when it comes to what an Assassin can do in combat terms.

If it can't replace a warrior, I don't see a reason to run an assassin at all. It doesn't have particularly good utility skills, and you have to fill up your bar with 3-5 attack skills, AoD, a speed boost, and a self heal if you want to be able to kill someone 1v1 or solo bases.

The problem I have as stated before is that I could easily take an illusion mesmer to gank bases while that illusion guy can still have a use in a 7v7 or 8v8 flag stand battle where the assassin looks less and less appealing, not to mention the mesmer can avoid typical base gank tactics, which is to send back a flashbot.

The Real Roy Keane · Jul 02, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

No one here is claiming that Assassins are a replacement for Warriors. My point is that they're more useful than "just ganking NPCs." They can gank players of all types just as well. Which is what an Assassin should do anyway... suprise someone, take em out rather quickly, and get out of there.

Apart from NPC gankers in GvG,the only other situation I'd use an Assasin in is in a TA match , due to their decent soloing abilities- though I'd still take a hammer Warrior ahead of one. I wouldn't take one near HA, which is all about mass AoE or rapid spike, areas in which the Assasin is lacking.

Isil`Zha · Jul 02, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

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An average axe combo of eviscerate + executioners does ~161 + deep wound in two hits (16 axe, 10 strength). And this is ignoring the fact that every warrior brings an IAS stance to spike with, yet almost no assassin bar uses one. So you're taking 50% longer to do your two hits.

Up it to three attack skills, the warrior will still win by a longshot. Only once you're up to a 4 skill "spike" can the assassin do more damage due to fitting in two dual attacks. However, every single one of these attacks is dependant on the previous one, and the start depends on your enchant being up. And it's increasingly harder to call your combo a "spike" when it takes 4+ seconds to pull off, with the most devastating hit with the deep wound at the very end. And again, if you timeframe it with the warrior using his IAS stance, his spike is still harder.

Ok, to get back to the original point here, a Guildie noticed this thread and did some tests with me for this result:

Equipment & Attributes

Assassin: Dagger Mastery at 15, Critical Strikes at 11. Used Vampiric PvP daggers of dagger mastery (+15% when enchanted, 3/-1 vamp, dagger master +1(20%). *Note* the vampiric damage was not factored in). For armor, the increased energy vest and pants were used for a total of 30 energy.

Warrior: Axe Mastery 13, Strength 12. Used Victo's Battle Axe (15%^50, 20/20 sundering, +30 health). Used Gladiator's armor.

The weapons were customized for their users.

Skills Used

Assassin: Aura of Displacement, Golden Pheonix Strike, Horns of the Ox, Falling Spider, Twisting Fangs.

Warrior: Frenzy, Eviserate, Executioner's, Furious Axe, Wild Blow

Method

To determine the damage, I went to the isle of the nameless and did the combos on the 60, 80, and 100 suits of armor. The combo's were done on each suit twice, then the numbers were averaged together (this helps factor in the sundering on the axe and the increased dagger mastery on the daggers). The averages were added up to obtain the total damage. The Deep Wound effect was discarded, since both combos inflict it. Also, the poison and bleeding were discarded since the damage is about the same as the warrior building up adrenaline by hitting the enemies.

The times were obtained with a stop watch. The assassin's time is determined by how long it took the assassin to use AoD until it pulled off twisting fangs. The time included a few seconds to build up energy for the final attack. For the warrior, it started with 0 adrenaline. It used frenzy to build up as quickly as possible then unleashed all four attacks as quickly as possible. The time is determined by how long it took to build up adrenaline and to pull off the four attacks. This time assumed the warrior was already next to the target, instead of running up to the target from where the assassin used AoD from.

The Numbers

Assassin: Damage - (60 armor) 279, (80 armor) 253, (100 armor) 230. Time - approx. 8 seconds

Warrior: Damage - (60 armor) 283, (80 armor) 221.5, (100 armor) 181. Time - approx. 13 seconds

Short Discussion

As I've stated, several factors were left out. Deep wound, poison, bleeding, and the warrior's damage from building up adren was already mentioned. Also left out of the test was other party members (because the assassin will also have party members) and the last 3 skill slots, since both have roughly equivalent skills they can place there. The main difference between the two is their different armor levels. Many of the arguments used against the assassin can also be used against the warrior, and vice versa. For instance, the assassin's damage can be negated by a blocking/evading stance or by blinding the assassin. Funny, the same can be said for the warrior. Blindness can be removed from the warrior by various skills provided by either a secondary or another party member? The same can be said for the assassin. So these factors were left out. The warrior inflicts damage by building up adrenaline. The assassin inflicts damage from poison + bleeding after their combo, with the added benefit of not needing to be there anymore. Again, these can be negated by condition removal, but the damage from the warrior building adrenaline can be negated by a healing. That's why this was left out. Another common argument about assassins is that their damage can be reduced by kiting them. Again, the same is true against warriors.

So, as we can see from the numbers, against squishies the warrior will outperform the assassin overtime, but just barely. However, as the target's armor increases, it becomes obvious that the assassin will outperform the warrior easily. Also of note is that the assassin inflicts its high damage right at the start, then builds up energy to inflict it again. The warrior builds up, then inflicts its higher damage.

DieInBasra · Jul 02, 2006, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Those number are slightly distorted because sundering is only half as good as vamp on the 60, and only a third as good as vamp on the 100. Also, every single warrior uses 16 wep mastery. most have 9 str, or 13 depending on if they bring healing signet.

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it becomes obvious that the assassin will outperform the warrior easily.

Yeah, next time try Penerating Chop instead of wild blow.

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For instance, the assassin's damage can be negated by a blocking/evading stance or by blinding the assassin. Funny, the same can be said for the warrior

Except an assassin vs a block/evade, the attack are multiplicative, so trying to get GPS-twisting though on a 50% block is like a 75% miss chance. It gets worse as you go along. But for a warrior, it's like 50% chance to get exe through.

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The warrior inflicts damage by building up adrenaline. The assassin inflicts damage from poison + bleeding after their combo, with the added benefit of not needing to be there anymore.

I hardly think that 14 dps from bleeding posion matches to an axe's potential 40 dps.

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Another common argument about assassins is that their damage can be reduced by kiting them. Again, the same is true against warriors.

That's because a warrior only needs two skills to spike effectivly, the rest can be antikiteing/speedbuffs.

But seriously, you can't call anything a spike that takes that long, the axe situation isn't realistic. I don't exactly know what you're trying to prove with this artical. A better idea is to do use Evis-Exe vs GPS-Horns-Falling-Twisting. After that, look at the numbers and look at the fact axe's can bring shock and bulls strike, both 3 second kd's vs the assassin's 2 second, and it's easy to see who comes out on top.

Btw, try Sever Artery-Gash-sun and moon slash-Final thrust, see how that fairs.

MrScaRy · Jul 02, 2006, 05:07 AM // 05:07

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Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Ok, to get back to the original point here, a Guildie noticed this thread and did some tests with me for this result:

Equipment & Attributes

Assassin: Dagger Mastery at 15, Critical Strikes at 11. Used Vampiric PvP daggers of dagger mastery (+15% when enchanted, 3/-1 vamp, dagger master +1(20%). *Note* the vampiric damage was not factored in). For armor, the increased energy vest and pants were used for a total of 30 energy.

Warrior: Axe Mastery 13, Strength 12. Used Victo's Battle Axe (15%^50, 20/20 sundering, +30 health). Used Gladiator's armor.

The weapons were customized for their users.

Skills Used

Assassin: Aura of Displacement, Golden Pheonix Strike, Horns of the Ox, Falling Spider, Twisting Fangs.

Warrior: Frenzy, Eviserate, Executioner's, Furious Axe, Wild Blow

Next time, why don't you use equally modded weapons for both guys instead of making it different. ie, Vampiric daggers of dagger mastery and vampiric axe of axe mastery.. its so much easier instead of comparing and averaging and stuff.

You are using 16 dagger mastery for the assassin, but only 13 axe for the warrior? I didn't know people started to use 13 axe mastery for gvgs.. or that people started to use furious axe(?!) in gvgs either.

Winstar · Jul 02, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

agree^ with both above posts

13 axe mastery is absolutely absurd. That shouldn't ever be the case. Set the test to compare a sin with an actual useful axe build. This is like saying "look the assassin seems better than the warrior for spiking since its better than the paladin premade build".

Thrown Together Axe Build

axe 16
str 11
tact 9

Eviscerate
Executioners
Penetrating
Frenzy
Shock/bulls strike...
Sprint
Heal Sig
Res Sig

Greedy Gus · Jul 02, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Use math instead of trying to record random hits. I already posted math on hits earlier in this thread. The damage formula is known. Some mod should blow away the last page or two of this thread -_-

TheOneMephisto · Jul 02, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Using a combination of gwgurus calculators and guildwiki's skill descriptions.

Warrior, 16 axe 13 str, frenzy->eviscerate -> executioners
150 dmg in 2.24 sec

Assassin, 16 dagger 13 crit, GPS->horns->falling spider->twisting
294 dmg in 5.32 sec

Those are fairly accurate. Note that this is would be using a +35% non-modded weapon and that deep wound is not factored in.

NOTE: Both assasin and warrior have deep wound.

Winstar · Jul 02, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

^ thank you

Deep wound on a foe with one sup rune and a sup vigor rune and the rest minors is about 97 I think. So about 247 in in 2.24

TheOneMephisto · Jul 02, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

^ thank you

Deep wound on a foe with one sup rune and a sup vigor rune and the rest minors is about 97 I think. So about 247 in in 2.24

Keep in mind that the assassin has deep wound also.

Greedy Gus · Jul 02, 2006, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Using a combination of gwgurus calculators and guildwiki's skill descriptions.

Warrior, 16 axe 13 str, frenzy->eviscerate -> executioners
150 dmg in 2.24 sec

Assassin, 16 dagger 13 crit, GPS->horns->falling spider->twisting
294 dmg in 5.32 sec

Those are fairly accurate. Note that this is would be using a +35% non-modded weapon and that deep wound is not factored in.

Those numbers are about 15% short, so just a 20% weapon.