Curse

lishi · Jul 07, 2006, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Lets suppose you fight against a balaced team with a decent pressure.

ever balaced team with 1 warrior have some sort of adrenaline spike where a warrior +something else will try to kill a target in a spike.

My dilemma is who should supposed to catch this spike?

When i play prot monk i normally take track of enemy warrior position and direction to make sure its target have always a guardian(even before a attack) and prot spirit when i think he is going to need it , in this way i unless im without energy or i lose track of warrior or he make a good fake target(sometime happen xD : too much confusion) the adrenaline spike never work. and the spike who will kill the target nearly take him down to half leaving the healer a easy heal.

Lately i wated to play infuser becouse i always leaved this to another healer and i wanted to learn it well.(i made i think about 15-30 hour pratice till now as infuser so im not very experienced).

Evertime we lose against a team with adrenaline spike my team mate always ask

Infuse?

When the pressure is high sometime the adrenaline spike catch me unready.
the reason are many , low energy , the spike caught while im healing someone else etc etc

keeping track of enemy warrior help me with it since i can stop to heal to catch the spike in time , but still sometime i still fail.

now this is my dilemma.

is the infuser fault?

if the prot fault?

is failure shared by both?

j_unit66 · Jul 07, 2006, 04:04 AM // 04:04

id say both, although many teams will blame the infuser when they lose to a spike team, even though it could many other problems, the monks in HA are made to compliment eachother, therefore it really shouldnt be just one persons fault but the teams. id say stick to playing prot since you seemed to be helping on spikes like that.

lishi · Jul 07, 2006, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by j_unit66

id say both, although many teams will blame the infuser when they lose to a spike team, even though it could many other problems, the monks in HA are made to compliment eachother, therefore it really shouldnt be just one persons fault but the teams. id say stick to playing prot since you seemed to be helping on spikes like that.

my dilemma is not against a spike team.

but a against a balaced pressure team with a spike component

Phrozen_ · Jul 07, 2006, 08:36 AM // 08:36

It is the prot monks responsibility imo. But its not that hard to watch the other teams warrior, so you should be able to do it yourself.

Vindexus · Jul 07, 2006, 08:43 AM // 08:43

It is the fault of whoever has died. (learn2kiteplx)

Of course this isn't exactly true 100% of the time, but it is a good rule to at least play by, as it forces your midline characters to play better, lest they be blamed with the death.

For an actual answer I'd have to say it is the fault of the person who died, the infuse, the prot, the other monk, and whoever else has any Warrior counters.

hyper · Jul 07, 2006, 08:43 AM // 08:43

it's the infuser's responsibility to stop any kind of pure spike (ranger, elemental, necro, etc) and it's the prot's responsibility to stop any spike which can be prevented ahead of time with pre-prot (adren, newb spikers giving away target, those kinds of situations).

good prots watch the fight and don't simply spam prot spirit on the first person to take a tiny dent. they watch enemy warriors and look for quick target switches, warriors hitting frenzy, etc before they pre-prot.

the responsibility does not end with the monks, however. it is the entire team's responsiblility to use their skills and positioning in order to maximize distruption.

Vindexus · Jul 07, 2006, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyper

it's the infuser's responsibility to stop any kind of pure spike (ranger, elemental, necro, etc) and it's the prot's responsibility to stop any spike which can be prevented ahead of time with pre-prot (adren, newb spikers giving away target, those kinds of situations).

Woah woah woah. Having played in the era known as the "November Spike" by me and many others (no others), I'd like to point out that the above statement is very false.

Against a team who's only way of killing is to use combined damage in a short burst the responsibility of staying alive rests of the shoulders of everyone who isn't a monk. If they aren't forcing people to kite, Galeing, Blacking out, interupt or just plain screwing with their spike then I feel it would be completely justifiable for an Infuser to blame the rest of the team for him missing a good spike. There should be no good spikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyper

good prots watch the fight and don't simply spam prot spirit on the first person to take a tiny dent. they watch enemy warriors and look for quick target switches, warriors hitting frenzy, etc before they pre-prot.

Very true; great advice to any prot monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyper

the responsibility does not end with the monks, however. it is the entire team's responsiblility to use their skills and positioning in order to maximize distruption.

To your credit you did mention this :P

hyper · Jul 07, 2006, 09:44 AM // 09:44

oh, i didn't mean it's _entirely_ on the shoulders of the infuser to stop every spike, i simply meant that, in the context of tombs, a good infuser should be able to stop 90% of spikes. against some spikes, such as FoC spike, the responsibility to stopping the lion's share of the spike falls to the team rather than the infuse.

but yes, the whole team must be actively engaged in screwing the spike so that it is easy as possible to infuse.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 07, 2006, 03:27 PM // 15:27

I think of it like all the players are the first line of defense. They are the ones that try to stop the spike from occuring in the first place. Then the infuser if your last line of defense, the thing that you fall onto when your first line fails.

Electric Death · Jul 07, 2006, 05:57 PM // 17:57

As a prot monk vs a pure spike build its easy to prot spirit+reversal an incoming spike, since you can simply watch the enemies casting spells or skills and you can tell yourself this is the real spike now when you see a couple casting their main spiking skills/spells, and you can get as ready as can be.

But when its a pressure build with a spike, it gets alot harder. If your watching all the enmies skills, cycling trough players watching their skills(their main spike skills in particular) you can often pay too much attention on this and miss out on your other job of maintaining the health of the team, removing hexes, putting guardian on ppl with long cast times, removing conditions.

So you have to be careful not to be watching the other team too much but just enough to see the big thing sign's eg, 2 warriors converging on a target, ele casting obsidian flame, stuff like that.

But yea as the others have said so far its the teams fault if they get a perfect spike off, spells should be getting interupted, your team should be spiking out their spikers, the woh should be keeping the infuser at full health, the prot should be using prot spirit at the right times, reversal is also a great skill vs a spike with single targets doing large amounts of damage with a single skill, warriors should be pressuring monks and spikers occasionaly, mesmers can drain ele attunes, necros can spread warrior hate and so on.

Psykewne · Jul 07, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47

playing infuser requires a fair amount of concentration and requires you to block out alot of subsidary work to concetrate on just catching the spikes against a spike team that's actually good.

You can't give this sort of attention against a team that has a pressure and spike. In that situation, certainly the prot monk should be much more ready to guard against warrior assaults and able to take the time to track warriors.

It's very easy for a team to blame their infuser when in fact it may be their kiting, positioning or in abilitity to disrupt the spike among many other possibilities that cause a loss.

Yet another down side to playing monk, you take all the flak, especially in HA, for losses.

You're doing the right thing though imo. After playing for so long i have a good idea of my requirements as any form of monk and if someone yells at me for not doing something that i shouldnt need to do anyway, i will argue straight back.

Good teams understand that you cant just infuse for any damage spike in a match because against a pressure team etc... it leaves you wide open to being killed yourself.

Sounds to me like you know what you're doing. Too few prot monks realise they should be playing a part in catching any and all spikes.

Helll is for Heroes · Jul 08, 2006, 01:48 PM // 13:48

definately both. The prot monk catches the spike slightly with his RoF, just enough time for the infuser to catch it with the main infuse.

art_ · Jul 08, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I think the infuser has the main role in catching an adrenaline spike, but yeah the prot monk should try to keep the obvious targets preprot spirited and slip in rof,guardian on the spike. Tbh, there aren't many adrenaline spikes that are that difficult to woh in tombs though.

Ylai Oulass · Jul 08, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

the key here is to assign a number to each of your party members and to trow away your mouse

you are never going to be effective if you take the reaction time of putting the infuse in with mous targeting your team member in the team member bar and then selecting your skill that way you will lower your reaction time aka result in a death especialy at 25 dp there gone in under 1 sec. this means you have to react in under 1/2 sec and you cant effectivly do that with a mouse ( dont know what the human reaction time is but il gess its 1/4 sec + the time to push te buttun 1/4 + 1/4 infuse)

if you already trowed away your mouse try to look at where the spikers run to so that you know who is getting spiked

a commun trick is to strike a off target for 100 damage and then get the infuser instead so look at the movement of the opponents no only the health

botum line

you will never be effective in infusing if you still use a mouse to target a ally

this is just a opinion and i know its hard but i am convinced by it..... srry

Slit Wrists · Jul 09, 2006, 12:27 AM // 00:27

When fighting a balanced team, the healer are often too busy healing in between spikes to catch them really efficiently. So imo, it relies more on the prot monk. As hyper said, the prot has to watch the fight, so putting prot spirit on the target right in front of the warrior isn't such a hard job.

Kiting helps a lot too.

audioaxes · Jul 09, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

the best adrenaline spikes are nearly impossible to stop from monks alone
the warrior should be very savy in disguising the spike and know who to spike and when to spike. The spike itself can be as fast as any other spike there is. And then there should be ample pressure from either some shutdown or just pure dps that you cant just follow the warrior all the time and prot who he's on. Pretty hard to stop a spike if the monks are frantically trying to remove hexes and spam heal party.

I think the most effective way to slow down a good evis spike is to have wards. If the build doesnt have much aoe you can hug up in wards which should buy enough time to kill them before they kill you. Another is to have a ritualist with union/shelter but some groups may be able to effectively shut down the ritualist. A hex build with a curse necro with spiteful and faint slows down the warrior but doesnt really stop a spike unless you have some miss hexes also with spirit/price of failure.
But most importantly everyone on the team has to be alert and able to recognize when a warrior is about to spike you and hopefully give your monks a split second early warning, if a warrior shocks you, most likely it will be followed by the evis spike. In general I try to only use shock on the monks to keep them from healing themselves during the spike if its failing on other players. Even if the spike is too fast and obsure to avoid consistantly, you can still make effective countermeasure by having your dp'd players fall back with a higher alert, always running away if a warrior gets within 15 feet, a good spike team knows who's dp'd and will take advantage of it.

Tainek · Jul 09, 2006, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ylai Oulass

the key here is to assign a number to each of your party members and to trow away your mouse

you are never going to be effective if you take the reaction time of putting the infuse in with mous targeting your team member in the team member bar and then selecting your skill that way you will lower your reaction time aka result in a death especialy at 25 dp there gone in under 1 sec. this means you have to react in under 1/2 sec and you cant effectivly do that with a mouse ( dont know what the human reaction time is but il gess its 1/4 sec + the time to push te buttun 1/4 + 1/4 infuse)

Unless you use a mouse such as the logitech 518, i have my mouse over the player names at all times, and a mouse button dedicated to infuse(which my them resides over) my average infuse response time is aproximatly .4 seconds (Fraps)

Byron · Jul 10, 2006, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

There should be no good spikes.

Very much QFT.

Snype · Jul 10, 2006, 11:07 PM // 23:07

As a traditional RC Prot monk, you have many jobs.

1. Prot spirit on EVERY warrior that uses frenzy
2. Prot spirit on SB/Infuser AT ALL TIMES (If the opposing team is a spike, try to keep it up on all monks)
3. If a spike occurs, and you have not done the above, try to immedietly RC on the deep wound, this will dramatically decrease the effectiveness of the spike and give the infuser ample time to catch the spike.

Now, as the infuser, your jobs are:

1. Assist the WoH in simple healing when he/she is not able to do it for whatever reason.
2. ALWAYS Keep your energy at 10+, so you are able to infuse a spike if one catches you off guard.
3. If against a spike that includes any spellcasters, keep SB on yourself at all times.

Now these are the most important jobs, but certainly not the only ones of these 2 monks.

audioaxes · Jul 10, 2006, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snype

As a traditional RC Prot monk, you have many jobs.

1. Prot spirit on EVERY warrior that uses frenzy
2. Prot spirit on SB/Infuser AT ALL TIMES (If the opposing team is a spike, try to keep it up on all monks)
3. If a spike occurs, and you have not done the above, try to immedietly RC on the deep wound, this will dramatically decrease the effectiveness of the spike and give the infuser ample time to catch the spike.

Now, as the infuser, your jobs are:

1. Assist the WoH in simple healing when he/she is not able to do it for whatever reason.
2. ALWAYS Keep your energy at 10+, so you are able to infuse a spike if one catches you off guard.
3. If against a spike that includes any spellcasters, keep SB on yourself at all times.

Now these are the most important jobs, but certainly not the only ones of these 2 monks.

rof is a more solid go-to spell in assisting the spiked target as rc is half a second slower