Curse

glenn_rolfe · Jul 05, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by nohooiam

one monk skill isn't going to make or break the build. chain rezzing key players is the best way to hold the altar.

hallelujiah at last some common sense.

Gees HoH attitude is locked into this little world of standard bars - must have wards, warrior needs shock, someone needs windborne, spellbreaker, infuse, woh monk, rc prot, .....blah blah

Vindexus · Jul 05, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Res sigs are fine on a monk, just as they are fine on any other character. The problem is that monks' skill bars tend to fill up more quickly than other characters, which is why you rarely see res sigs on monks. It all depends on the team build.

Expecting to go through a match and take 5 deaths max is arrogant. Those extra resses can make all the difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebirther

it depends on what your build is, but personally in PvP I don't believe a monk should carry a res sign unless they are playing a smiter.

E.G.
Health Bars are fine, one team mate is down, the monk starts ressurecting.
Your team starts playing defensive, so its a good time to res, but your enemy suddenly makes an offensive attack, your team's health bars are now taking heavy damage, lot of conditions and nasty hexes.
You got two choices - Stop the res'ing and start healing. - but you have a team mate down? your the primary resser, you can't start the res because the team can't stay healthy. another team mate dies.... now your taking heavy damage, not enough healing spells to counteract the recharge times... oh crap... your screwed.
This just doesn't apply to healing, what if your an rc prot. heavy conditions vs ressing? or what if your infusing?

Just stop ressing and heal your party...
There is no such thing as a "primary resser". Everyone on your team should be ressing. If you have a res and someone dies, you click their health bar and then you click your res sig. Ressing is a responsiblity shared by the entire party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebirther

In HA, for a monk playing a supportive role i.e healing, rc protting, infusing, that player's core focus is that role, diverting from that role will affect the team's survivability and preformance.

Then why do people bring res sigs on other characters? Because more often than not having an extra player is more important than having an extra skill slot. And if you can't handle the multi-tasking, then you need some more practice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebirther

If i joined a HA team that heavily insisted on my monk taking a res sig (this is playing either woh/hp, rc prot or infusing, even boon prot) then I would more incline to tell the leader to find another monk.

Well that's your choice, but I strongly encourage you to ask the leader why he wants that res sig. Is it because you have two off monk heal parties, a Martyr dom mesmer and Expel Hexes on your Sword Warrior? Because in that case you can probably afford the extra skill slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebirther

Thats just me... but when I play a monk I have enough on my plate, without having to worry about ressing fallen players.

It isn't that hard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

I don't agree. I think that's the current mentality of people locked into a fixed system. Like sb/infuse has to go together, and you have to have them. The plague thinking that has made HA the repetitive grind it is today.

Res sigs on monks can certainly fit builds where you have distributed healing and prots or hex removal on non-monks.

koreans stilll do it.

Agree completely.

Electric Death · Jul 05, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Even after reading all of your arguements why a monk might/should take a res sig i still agree with what i said first, its just a bad idea.

I play monk for HA, pretty much all i play for HA, and i usually play rc or woh, so my skills are:
rc, rof, guardian, prot spirit, aegis, inspired, veil, channeling(only really usefull vs iway)
and for woh
woh, orison, kiss, seed, hp, inspired, veil, channeling

now all of them skills are needed imo they all have a purpose vs certain builds/types of damage, fair enough in a strange build i might be asked to swap a skill for another one that has a good reason for being taken, but never to drop a skill for res.
in fact i have never been asked to take one, not just cos i would be ''doing something different than everyone else in HA and not being the same as every other monk'' but because every team i play in realises that a monks job is to keep ppl alive not to worry about dead party members, thats the non monk classes job.

And back to my point about the skills i take, its not like im playing a warrior or something where 1 less attack skill wont really make a huge difference, as a monk all the skills are there for a reason, not just cos the look good. as the meta game changes over time i change my skills accordingly, but i dont think i will ever take a res sig as a monk (smiting excluded).

Vindexus · Jul 05, 2006, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electric Death

Even after reading all of your arguements why a monk might/should take a res sig i still agree with what i said first, its just a bad idea.

I play monk for HA, pretty much all i play for HA, and i usually play rc or woh, so my skills are:
rc, rof, guardian, prot spirit, aegis, inspired, veil, channeling(only really usefull vs iway)
and for woh
woh, orison, kiss, seed, hp, inspired, veil, channeling

now all of them skills are needed imo they all have a purpose vs certain builds/types of damage, fair enough in a strange build i might be asked to swap a skill for another one that has a good reason for being taken, but never to drop a skill for res.
in fact i have never been asked to take one, not just cos i would be ''doing something different than everyone else in HA and not being the same as every other monk'' but because every team i play in realises that a monks job is to keep ppl alive not to worry about dead party members, thats the non monk classes job.

I agree with your decision for those bars. Every one of those skills is needed in my opinion, in most cases.

I'm just trying to make this point

Res sigs on monks are rare not because the idea of a monk using a res sig is inherently bad, but because every one of their skills is so valuable.

Electric Death · Jul 06, 2006, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by nohooiam

one monk skill isn't going to make or break the build. chain rezzing key players is the best way to hold the altar.

Actually it can, all the skills in a monks skillbar are situational, for example as a rc prot:

rc: you may not face any conditions
rof: mainly just a fast heal in tight situations or can even prevent a spike
guardian: may not face any melee damage or rangers eg bloodspike
prot spirit: may not face a spike eg degen
aegis: same as guardian
inspired: may not need energy or face no hexes
veil: maybe no hexes
channeling: mainly for facing iway when you got lots of ppl hacking away at you while you camp your wards, in a ranger spike its usless for example.

so all monk skills are really situational, and when you start removing skills that are needed in certain situations you shoot yourslef in the foot really. so with all these skills, they really can make or break your build/team in terms of what you face or need.

Rebirther · Jul 07, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Res sigs are fine on a monk, just as they are fine on any other character. The problem is that monks' skill bars tend to fill up more quickly than other characters, which is why you rarely see res sigs on monks. It all depends on the team build.

Expecting to go through a match and take 5 deaths max is arrogant. Those extra resses can make all the difference.

So your saying that in battles you can expect deaths of 5+ players per match? That’s completely absurd!
You cannot predict how many deaths a team may take, some teams actually pass with flawless, even one or two deaths, no one can expect to go through with 5 deaths max, or even with 10 deaths, or even 1.

Now by stripping a monk of a skill in slot for a resurrect signet results in two perceived outcomes (assuming the change is made to the HA builds – which is the topic at hand)
1/ you are not putting faith into your monks and don’t trust them to heal effectively.
2/ you are reducing the effectiveness of the abilities of the monk because of the resurrect skill replacement.

You got to remember that your team falls when the monk falls, three great monks with good co-ordination is far greater than having 3 additional resurrect signets.

Its good having every team mate carry a ressurect signet, but at what cost??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Just stop ressing and heal your party...
There is no such thing as a "primary resser". Everyone on your team should be ressing. If you have a res and someone dies, you click their health bar and then you click your res sig. Ressing is a responsiblity shared by the entire party.

I mis-worded that sentence, in the time it takes to resurrect a fallen player (3 seconds) that’s enough time for an enemy to deal heavy damage on your team.
Three additional ressurect signets on the monks, ok.
What happens when you come across a spike team? The infuser has to focus on the task in hand… infusing. You give him a resurrect signet what are you doing? Your removing the infuser for 3 seconds , now for a spike team, that is awful lot of time to take down a team mate. What’s the alternative? Say to the infuser to not use resurrect signet in this match? Then what was the point of him taking one in the first place then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Then why do people bring res sigs on other characters? Because more often than not having an extra player is more important than having an extra skill slot. And if you can't handle the multi-tasking, then you need some more practice.

Because the skillset of the monk is a lot more demanding than the other classes, one skill for a monk can make a big difference whereas in other classes the change is only marginal and can quite possibly do without.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Well that's your choice, but I strongly encourage you to ask the leader why he wants that res sig. Is it because you have two off monk heal parties, a Martyr dom mesmer and Expel Hexes on your Sword Warrior? Because in that case you can probably afford the extra skill slot.

Yes like I was saying before, it all depends on the build, but were talking about the HA monk builds here, as per the topic thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

It isn't that hard.

I’m not saying it is, I’m saying I’d rather be focusing on my parties health than resurrecting a fallen team mate.

For some builds sure a monk taking a resurrect signet may be fine, but think of the effects in the long run, how will removing one skill to fit in a signet affect the effectiveness of the build? If you still firmly believe that a monk should be able to take a resurrect signet in his/her build, then I ask you for an example.
Notice that quite often a vast majority of players in HA and in most PvP type gameplays don’t tend to take a resurrect signet? Why is that? It’s because it will effect his/her overall preformance as well as having a big effect on the teams overall build.

According to your responses it seems that you haven’t monked a lot in HA, or you will understand why those builds don’t have resurrect signets in them.
Builds that do require the monk to take a resurrect signet seems to put question on how the build actually operates, why would a sword warrior have expel hexes when his on the offensive side? He’ll be on the frontlines, asking him to take that skill puts heavy impact on his ability to function, what if the monk is kiting at the back? Your effectively pulling the sword warrior away from the front lines to do some hex management?
A single class has assigned roles, either to be on the backline, mid lines or the front lines, not having a class multitask between the three.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electric Death

Actually it can, all the skills in a monks skillbar are situational, for example as a rc prot:

rc: you may not face any conditions
rof: mainly just a fast heal in tight situations or can even prevent a spike
guardian: may not face any melee damage or rangers eg bloodspike
prot spirit: may not face a spike eg degen
aegis: same as guardian
inspired: may not need energy or face no hexes
veil: maybe no hexes
channeling: mainly for facing iway when you got lots of ppl hacking away at you while you camp your wards, in a ranger spike its usless for example.

so all monk skills are really situational, and when you start removing skills that are needed in certain situations you shoot yourslef in the foot really. so with all these skills, they really can make or break your build/team in terms of what you face or need.

Spot on.

EDIT: corrected some code errors (quotes)

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jul 07, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Funny that this topic has been brought up. I've been yelled at lately in HA by PUG's calling me a "noob" for not bringing a rez even though I'm a monk.

I'm not saying monks should never bring one...it all depends on the build....but these idiots yelling at monks to bring a rez? That will teach me to play with PUGs....

Byron · Jul 07, 2006, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirther

You got to remember that your team falls when the monk falls, three great monks with good co-ordination is far greater than having 3 additional resurrect signets.

Mesmer > monk. No matter how great the monk is, a mesmer can best him/her. And knowing that, I think it's ill advised to expect your monks to be able to always be spot-on and coordinated.

Quote:

What happens when you come across a spike team? The infuser has to focus on the task in hand… infusing. You give him a resurrect signet what are you doing? Your removing the infuser for 3 seconds , now for a spike team, that is awful lot of time to take down a team mate.

I don't know any spike that recharges in under 5 seconds, let alone 3. I think of any of the standard backline monks, the infuser is most suitable to carry a res.

Quote:

Why is that? It’s because it will effect his/her overall preformance as well as having a big effect on the teams overall build

I think it has just become custom, tbh. I don't see how having another sig could ever be bad, in essence. Only if it were replacing an essential skill could it be detrimental, IMHO.

Quote:

According to your responses it seems that you haven’t monked a lot in HA, or you will understand why those builds don’t have resurrect signets in them.

I'm sure most of us have been up late enough to see Vindexus hold halls.

Quote:

A single class has assigned roles, either to be on the backline, mid lines or the front lines, not having a class multitask between the three.

That HA mindset is infectious, it seems. This statement is borderline insulting to anything but a cookie-cutter HA build.

Rebirther · Jul 07, 2006, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Mesmer > monk. No matter how great the monk is, a mesmer can best him/her. And knowing that, I think it's ill advised to expect your monks to be able to always be spot-on and coordinated.

It all depends on the skill level of the monks you’ve got in your team, and without question the three monks should be definitely be able to co-ordinate without dispute, but this is not always the case, I’ve been in many groups where my fellow monks don’t even call out via teamspeak or ventrillo when they remove hex or when they seed etc, and this is a rank6+ group.
When I’m in a team I always tell the monk’s what I expect from them so they can co-ordinate better, but again it’s all down to the individual.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I don't know any spike that recharges in under 5 seconds, let alone 3. I think of any of the standard backline monks, the infuser is most suitable to carry a res.

…. I’m not talking about a recharge of a spike, I’m talking about a casting time of a spike, 5 seconds is more than enough time for a team to take down one of your members, if the infuser is resurrecting then chaos will most likely spread, in a spike group once the infuser is down the team is down.

Also take note that some spike teams are smart and they sometimes initiate a decoy spike before the actual spike, and there is always one that’s keeping tabs on what the infuser is doing, if his spotted resurrecting and they are ready to set of a spike… well that’s not going to be good for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I think it has just become custom, tbh. I don't see how having another sig could ever be bad, in essence. Only if it were replacing an essential skill could it be detrimental, IMHO.

A resurrection signet isn’t always bad, I’m not saying it is but what I am saying is that a monk’s build is more demanding than any other class and one skill in his/her set can make a big difference.
It’s like in your examination results, one mark makes the difference between a pass and a fail, different situations but netherless the same, one skill can make the difference between life and death for your character.
It’s always the monks that are under pressure, and normally where the team first assign blame when their team fails **

**[i](although not always the case and not actually saying it out loud, but they are thinking it, like “f******* monk didn’t heal/ infuse or I was blinded nearly all match” etc etc. [i/]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I'm sure most of us have been up late enough to see Vindexus hold halls.

Good for him but I don’t recognise his name ingame so I wouldn’t know.
I’m not saying his a crap player or anything like that, what I am saying that I don’t believe he has “monked” enough in HA to realise the long term effects of having a resurrection signet within a monk’s skill set.

I’ve been PvPing Monking since the very start of the game, when fame was never given in the first round of HA, and where builds weren’t as sophisticated as they are today as well as the tedious 8 man matches in Burial Mounds etc
I carried resurrection signets back then and they never worked that great, even as time passed and stronger builds were created I still carried a resurrection signet but have never found it to do justice, my contribution to this thread is from my own experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

That HA mindset is infectious, it seems. This statement is borderline insulting to anything but a cookie-cutter HA build.

People like what works, and those builds do work, here’s an example:

HA Degen:
2 x W/E Shockers – Front lines
2 x Mesmers Mid lines
1 x Necro or Ele Sub Midlines – Backline Support
3 x Monks Backline

Those lines are based on the characters skill set and functionality within the team, think about it, in a real world war would you see a nurse on the front lines? No his/her job will back at base (back lines) unless it’s a field agent and even then they’ll not on the front lines, would you see a rocket artillery unit sit tight on the front lines? No they are manned on the mid lines on a battle field.

Now relating this ingame, when a warrior in your starts engaging the opposing party? His first instinct is to go for a monk (unless told otherwise), do we agree? If so where are the monks most likely to be situated? Backlines of the opposing team, correct?

Why is that statement insulting? It’s the truth, each class has a specific function.
When would you see a ritualist binding spirits on the front lines in the core of combat?
Granted that the lines are never held for long but this is just a saying, those lines are used to help a player realise his position on a battle field, to help with that players positioning, of course a monk will sometimes push forward to start healing his comrades who are further up on the battlefield, but when that monk is getting beat up by say a warrior, where does he run? He’ll be kiting around his team mates or inside the wards (midlines and backlines), it’s not like his thinking “oh my god, a warrior is on me, I know I’ll go to my warrior and he can fight him of” if he/she did that, then the teams reaction to that won’t be pleasant and I can bet everyone will say to him “stay back”.

I would be more willing to accept your argument if you provided a monk build where you would fit a resurrection signet, be my guest and I would be willing to test it in HA with a team of friends who are very experienced and if it works I will totally admit wrong and take back everything I said, but with 99% certainty I can say that it won’t work.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 07, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebirther

…. I’m not talking about a recharge of a spike, I’m talking about a casting time of a spike, 5 seconds is more than enough time for a team to take down one of your members, if the infuser is resurrecting then chaos will most likely spread, in a spike group once the infuser is down the team is down.

Also take note that some spike teams are smart and they sometimes initiate a decoy spike before the actual spike, and there is always one that’s keeping tabs on what the infuser is doing, if his spotted resurrecting and they are ready to set of a spike… well that’s not going to be good for you.

Your infuser has to know when to res if he has one. Wait until the spike is over, then res while they're recharging. You should be able to recognize a decoy spike because they won't be using their main spike skills or not all of them will be spiking.

Electric Death · Jul 07, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Guys unless you have monked in HA, not just once but on a regular basis, dont post what a monk can and cant bring in his/her skillbar, its ridiculious to think that you can tell what class can and cant bring if you have no experience playing that class in pvp regulary.

Rebirther i can see does have experience in monking in HA not just because he said he has and his avatar thing happens to be a pic of a monk lol, but because of the points he makes, the rest of you arguing why a monk should take a res (actually expcet for Vendexis he seems to know what he is talking about) to me look like you have little or no HA monking experience.

Helll is for Heroes · Jul 08, 2006, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Expecting to go through a match and take 5 deaths max is arrogant. Those extra resses can make all the difference.

put it this way, if you had needed to res 5 times, you're already screwed.

Byron · Jul 08, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirther

Now relating this ingame, when a warrior in your starts engaging the opposing party? His first instinct is to go for a monk (unless told otherwise), do we agree? If so where are the monks most likely to be situated? Backlines of the opposing team, correct?

Granted. I was put aback by the wording of that previous statement, since it seemed like you were putting every respective class into a predetermined and specialized role. When we consider the tried and true 2 warrior/3 monk balanced build, the placement of characters and execution of roles is especially important. Of course monks shouldn't be in the front lines; it would be fundamentally flawed.

Quote:

I would be more willing to accept your argument if you provided a monk build where you would fit a resurrection signet

I may as well:

Res sig infuser

11+1+2 divine favor
11+1+2 healing prayers
8 inspiration magic

Spellbreaker {e}
Infuse health
Healing touch
Heal other
Healing seed
Inspired hex
*Holy veil, Convert hexes, heal party
Resurrection signet

*build variant (eg, dual smite wouldn't need a convert)

Aryn Rand · Jul 09, 2006, 01:53 AM // 01:53

15+10+5+10+10+5+15=75 energy.

This sounds more like an ele bar if you ask me. A monk needs more energy managment and energy managment means among other things less costly spells.

I would do:
Spellbreaker
Infuse healt
orison of health
dwaynas kiss//holy veil
Healing Seed
Heal party
Inspired hex
Channeling

Healing touch is a bit ego, the heal monk should fill up your health since a healing from him is more efficent that it is coming from you. You can also use orison on other people without running around touching them.

Heal other is way too exspensiv and dont belong on a primary monk. Maybe a ele somwhere.
Im going to assume that your not running nr/tranq build so then channeling is crucial. Best non elite manargment in tombs.
Why would you run res sig on monks really? The more res signets you have the weaker your build is. So why weaken the people that are keeping you alive so you can use more res sigs?
3 seconds is alloot of time to kill stiff wjem tje monk is standint there doing nothing. And its wrong that the infuser dosent have to do anything but in spike. He also infuses against adrenaline spikes osv. Helping out to generaly heal is also one his task.

Psykewne · Jul 10, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

well well who would have thought this discussion could get so hostile...

I agree with the point made here... a res sig on any character is a fine filler. But to jusify putting a res sig on any character you have to decide what you're missing out on. Now for most characters the choice is easy because one less attack skill etc... doesn't make too much difference, but the res sig can help alot.

On a monk its far harder to justify the choice, but it can be done in certain builds.

Due to the convention in HA which justifiably has monks not bring res sigs or spells i always think it safe to assume everyone is working under that parameter unless otherwise told to. Therefore if i see a pug monk use a res sig, he will be told to change his skill and i will be annoyed. however if i wanted him to have a res and he didnt (assuming i didnt specify him to have one) i would not be justified to be angry.

Anyone freaking out at you for not having a res as a monk if they didnt specify it should stfu, but if they ask you to bring it, there is probably a reason. Likewise, dont bring one on your monk unless told to.

Until the convention changes drastically i believe that is the attitude that should be held.

Just my opinion.

Byron · Jul 10, 2006, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aryn Rand

Healing touch is a bit ego, the heal monk should fill up your health since a healing from him is more efficent that it is coming from you.

Under absolutely ideal circumstances, yes. I have found it is much better to prepare for the worst rather than the norm. Building a monk that is expecting to always get healed from another cookie-cutter monk is arrogant and foolhardy, IMHO.

Quote:

This sounds more like an ele bar if you ask me. A monk needs more energy managment and energy managment means among other things less costly spells.

Not everything is a full-time spam; check the recharge on those spells (SB, seed, convert) as well as the specialization. Not every map calls for a spellbreaker, and not every enemy match requires heal party. Inspired hex is e-management, also. And btw, more orison copies are never a good answer.

Quote:

I would do:

We are all probably well aware of typical infuser builds, the objective was to build one with a res sig.

Aryn Rand · Jul 10, 2006, 10:37 AM // 10:37

The point is actually too debate if HA monks should carry res sigs. Not too prove it can be done, with a bar that is way to much energy. The only matches that cannot benefit from spellbreaker is when you fight against teams that have no spells targeting people on your team.

I see VIM, IWAY Barrageway and so on. In most other battles thou a spellbreaker at the right time will save you. A good word monk always wawtches the infuser and fills up his bar.
Healing touch is a decent skill but has a enormous disadvantage, and that is that it can only be use on yourself effeciently.

I would rather go with a skill that can work well in most situations than a skill that works perfectly in very few situations.
Also the energy that is required to heal you up again further ruins the infusers low energy pool.

Its just not that it cost 10 energy, its that 5 energy spells might bring back 2+ energy with channeling. That means a netto lost of 3 energy lost/used per spell with a well placed channeling, or just warriors chasing you. Instead of 7 lost each time you use a spell.
So on 3 orisons you have healed for xx and it cost you 9 energy but with a heal other you lost 14 just for 2 heals. And it adds up. Overhealing is also a bigger issue with Heal other than orison.

Monks will always need self healing but taking a skill that cant do nothing else but self heal exept in the most perfect situations.
Everyone looks down on cookie cutter builds, it seems to be a bad word around here. I think they are here because they are efficent and one of the best comboes around.
Its the golden middle road. Works good in most situation and can cope with almost everything with good playing. I cant see whats bad with that.

Im not against new builds or innovation, but things arent good just because it s not cookie cutter buillds.

And Byron even thou the spells has recharge its way too exspensiv. The infuser already has problems keeping up with the "cookie cutter build." So I cant really see that adding more costly spells will change that in a posetive direction.

The backline needs to do what they are supposed to do.
1: Grunt healing
2:Spike healing
3:Preventing dmg

Condition removal is reserved for the prot, hex removal is spread on all 3 monks.
I dont belive they can a break from healing against a evenly matched team or a better one even.

glenn_rolfe · Jul 10, 2006, 11:38 AM // 11:38

send when did HoH have front lines, mid-lines and backlines??

art_ · Jul 10, 2006, 12:56 PM // 12:56

*since, and yup?

The only build with a front line and back line in HA is IWAY.

Byron · Jul 12, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aryn Rand

Its just not that it cost 10 energy, its that 5 energy spells might bring back 2+ energy with channeling. That means a netto lost of 3 energy lost/used per spell with a well placed channeling, or just warriors chasing you. Instead of 7 lost each time you use a spell.

10 energy spells used more effectively are no loss. There's no good reason (mesmers aside) to run out of energy in HA - either your build is awful or you're being an inefficient healer. An orison may be cheaper, but its a very small heal and almost worthless in the spike environment that is HA, IMHO. Dwayna's is a solid possibility, assuming tainted and/or aegis is being run.

I used to be of the orison school, but then I engaged myself in this thread:

Page 3, Factions Skills and PvP Evolution

I suggest you take a look at it, more especially Ensign's replies to my posts.