Curse

zepath · Jul 15, 2006, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Many RA/TA warriors use frenzy.

Most use it because they see warriors in high level GvG use it.

Here's the difference.

Reason 1:

In high level GvG there are usually 3 or even 4 monks. Each one of these monks is highly responsively and, in every aspect of the word, godly. They have a wide variety of monks. Infusers, booners, prot monks, all dedicated to preventing spikes.

In RA/TA there are, in most cases, 1 monk at most. This monk is susceptible to KD, blackout, shroud, interrupts. Secondly that there are many ways of disabling certain types of monks (particularly boon prot).

Reason 2:

In GvG there are 8 players. Most times, people are so focused on killing one of the 3 monks, or crippling, or edenial, that no attention is paid to the warriors. They can frenzy unmolested. In fact, the primary focus of GvG isn't really to kill off the entire opposing team, so damage isn't even a priority.

In RA/TA there are 4 players. Regardless of what's going on, there's usually someone watching you. Since the goal of RA/TA is to kill off the opposing team, if a warrior frenzies, it is relatively easy to obsidian flame/smite/rspike them to death before the monk can even react (or recast his recently shattered divine boon).

Reason 3:

Tiger Stance accomplishes the same goal for the same energy. In most cases, frenzy is used sparingly anyway, as a means for executing a spike. Some people may claim it can be used to generate adrenaline faster, which is true, but with the amount of kiting that goes on in RA/TA (good RA/TA), rush/sprint/using a wand, is a far superior way of building up adrenaline. Few players (actually a lot, but we won't go there), good players don't stand there and get wailed on by a warrior. They execute their attacks and run to minimize melee damage.

Anyway, I'm sure many disagree with me. Any thoughts?

TheOneMephisto · Jul 15, 2006, 01:01 PM // 13:01

You're wrong.

Tiger stance can't be used to adrenaline spike properly, making it much easier to catch spikes.

Generally in GvG there are 2 monks and one or two smiters max, few teams actually use a 3-monk backline.

In GvG a warrior that isn't frenzying intelligently will get WTFBBQOMG pounded by mid-line characters with high-damage spells (aka orb, burn, OF, etc).

As long as you use if intelligently, frenzy can easily be used to build adrenaline, and sprint/rush cancelling works wonders.

Good RA? Are you smoking something?
And in TA it's easy to find people to pound on using good target switching and your brain.

Dahl · Jul 15, 2006, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

You're wrong.

Tiger stance can't be used to adrenaline spike properly, making it much easier to catch spikes.

Generally in GvG there are 2 monks and one or two smiters max, few teams actually use a 3-monk backline.

In GvG a warrior that isn't frenzying intelligently will get WTFBBQOMG pounded by mid-line characters with high-damage spells (aka orb, burn, OF, etc).

As long as you use if intelligently, frenzy can easily be used to build adrenaline, and sprint/rush cancelling works wonders.

Good RA? Are you smoking something?
And in TA it's easy to find people to pound on using good target switching and your brain.

I second that. Tiger Stance does nothing. It can't be used indefinately and even worse it will cancel if there's any sort of warrior control.

Frenzy is still the best.

original whopper · Jul 15, 2006, 01:34 PM // 13:34

agreed with the two post before me, the reason why its used by the pros in high lvl gvgs is becuase it is indeed that good. The war using it obviously has to be smart enough to know when to use it/ cancel it before the big hit comes.

If u look at the other alternatives for a war speed buff, they don't give ya more bang for your buck.

'I will avenge you"- one of your allies needs to be dead, 45sec recharge
Battle rage- when it ends u loose all adren
berserker stance- you can't use any skills or it ends, 30 sec recharge
darwan battle stance- only 10% faster, hammers only, 10 enrgy cost, 30 sec recharge, can't use any skills
Tiger stance- ends if u fail to hit,majority of monks will have guardian
flurry- short time, 25% less dmg

Ole Man Bourbon · Jul 15, 2006, 03:39 PM // 15:39

I prefer Tiger's Fury, but Frenzy can be used if you have another stance to switch to if you're coming under attack, like Sprint.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 15, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ole Man Bourbon

I prefer Tiger's Fury, but Frenzy can be used if you have another stance to switch to if you're coming under attack, like Sprint.

Tiger's fury is good, but I don't like it because a) it blacks out other skills, b) it limits your secondary, c) it's energy-heavy, and d) it takes quite a few attribute points. Either way, you should have sprint/rush. Every warrior should have a run buff.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 15, 2006, 05:56 PM // 17:56

In a world where just about everyone is a boon prot with guardian or brings some kind of defensive stance/enchantment, using Tiger's Stance seems like a very very bad idea.

In 4v4, a good warrior can easily watch the casters. If one of them starts raising his arms and pointing at you, switch out of Frenzy. If the warrior starts running back to Eviscerate you, switch out of Frenzy.

Tiger's Fury is okay, but it gets hard to run on the same bar with a couple energy skills, and some of the energy skills are extremely useful in RA (Bull's Strike, Distracting Blow, Shock.)

Ole Man Bourbon · Jul 15, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Yeah but if you use a Zealous mod it totally pays for itself.

edit: Tiger's Fury on an axe, that is.

fb2000 · Jul 16, 2006, 12:06 AM // 00:06

ive gotten addicted over the few days to Frenzy+Rush on totally every warrior build i play (well, Ive not played swords yet

). I prefer rush now, even if Im using something like Hammer bash/heavy blow or any similar "lose all adrenaline" skill, which might sound as a bad idea, but a constant speedbuff does actually make up for that id say..

TheOneMephisto · Jul 16, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by fb2000

ive gotten addicted over the few days to Frenzy+Rush on totally every warrior build i play (well, Ive not played swords yet

). I prefer rush now, even if Im using something like Hammer bash/heavy blow or any similar "lose all adrenaline" skill, which might sound as a bad idea, but a constant speedbuff does actually make up for that id say..

What happens after you spike someone with frenzy? You're open spike bait with an uncancelable frenzy. I agree with rush on many hammerwars, because their bars are very energy-heavy. On sword and axe warriors, you don't have enough energy usage to really justify taking rush. An on-demand speed boost is very helpful.

TheGuildWarsPenguin · Jul 16, 2006, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by zepath

Reason 1:

In high level GvG there are usually 3 or even 4 monks. Each one of these monks is highly responsively and, in every aspect of the word, godly. They have a wide variety of monks. Infusers, booners, prot monks, all dedicated to preventing spikes.

Just use Frenzy and switch to Rush when you think your getting spiked.

zepath · Jul 16, 2006, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGuildWarsPenguin

Just use Frenzy and switch to Rush when you think your getting spiked.

This is a general response to everybody who mentioned stance cancelling.

Stance cancelling works... maybe 1/10 of the time. Even a good warrior can't simply "stance cancel" every time they see a caster "raise his hands" in their general direction. Most of the time there's at least one caster "raising their hands" in "your general direction" and you can't stance cancel every time or there's no point in even bringing frenzy.

Furthermore, swiching to Rush "when you think you're getting spiked" is swell in theory, but in practice a spike, by definition, is a surge of damage in a period so short the opponent does not have time to react. As much as I'd like to say that a warrior in the middle of a 5 hit adrenaline spike will respond to a 0.5 second leeway elementalist obsidian flame spike or even the much slower 1.5 second rspike, I really don't think it's enough time to hit that sprint button. Even the fastest response time will still, at least, get hit by the first attack in the spike... in which an obsidian flame will hit for ~250 damage.

Also, GvG warriors don't stance cancel. If you watch carefully, the monks simply heal through it, or they die.

zepath · Jul 16, 2006, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

In a world where just about everyone is a boon prot with guardian or brings some kind of defensive stance/enchantment, using Tiger's Stance seems like a very very bad idea.

In a world where just about everyone is boon prot with guardian or brings some kind of defensive stance/enchantment, it's probably a better investment to bring expose defenses (or expunge enchantments if you're feeling naughty). Attempting to frenzy adren spike through a stance is relatively pointless as it no longer is a spike. Frenzy-pressuring through a stance might work, but it also means you always take double damage which can end up being rather expensive on your individual heal monk.

fb2000 · Jul 16, 2006, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

What happens after you spike someone with frenzy? You're open spike bait with an uncancelable frenzy. I agree with rush on many hammerwars, because their bars are very energy-heavy. On sword and axe warriors, you don't have enough energy usage to really justify taking rush. An on-demand speed boost is very helpful.

why wouldnt u use rush on say an Axe shock warrior? on sword i can see, final thrust is too useful, ok, but i dont see any axe combo that has "lose all adrenaline", unless u throw in wildblow

RotteN · Jul 16, 2006, 02:21 PM // 14:21

i've alway used frenzy in TA and RA, just cancel it the moment a casting animation points in your direction, or the moment a warrior comes charging towards you. the "only one monk" is a poor excuse, cause in gvg splitbuilds, warriors also use frenzy, and only have one monk ...

TheOneMephisto · Jul 16, 2006, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by fb2000

why wouldnt u use rush on say an Axe shock warrior? on sword i can see, final thrust is too useful, ok, but i dont see any axe combo that has "lose all adrenaline", unless u throw in wildblow

Sprint is used because on-demand speed boosts are very useful. Sometimes you ant to boost, but you don't have adrenaline. The only reason I would use rush is if I had an energy-heavy build, and axe warriors are definitely not energy-heavy.

Lando Griffen · Jul 17, 2006, 03:28 AM // 03:28

In random arena, a conventional warrior build will probably get you killed, because for some reason, ra warriors like to fight other warriors. Also, teams there don't understand concepts such as positioning or overextending, so you'll likely die of uselesness if you don't rush in and die anyway. In team arena, I definately don't see why you wouldn't bring it, it's not like the other team is waiting to spike you, mostly in ta, they'll each be focusing on their individual jobs, and they'll only punish warriors who do stupid things.

jummeth · Jul 17, 2006, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Sprint is used because on-demand speed boosts are very useful. Sometimes you ant to boost, but you don't have adrenaline. The only reason I would use rush is if I had an energy-heavy build, and axe warriors are definitely not energy-heavy.

Shock axe warriors are very energy hungry.

Rush is even more on-demand than sprint. At most you will ever suffer is 3 seconds downtime with rush unless you are diverted/blacked out etc etc.

With sprint and shock you can actually be caught with your pants down and not be able to cancel frenzy.

@OP: frenzy is and will always be a demi-elite. It is the reason why warriors are so scary.

If you are facing a spike team and you go into frenzy, thats just being stupid, and the other posts specifically stipulated that the warrior is not stupid. Spike teams have a vastly lowered DPS, of course the fact that they will all cast at the same time means that you will see they are casting a spike and will auto-matically cancel frenzy.

The fact that you are giving up an increase in damage and the 2-3 second faster charging of your deadly adren skills will mean that the opposite number will always provide more pressure than you and squeeze more spikes into the same time. Its truly as simple as that.

Slit Wrists · Jul 17, 2006, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

just cancel it the moment at the moment a warrior comes charging towards you.

Exactly. And same thing for gvg.

D E L E T E D · Jul 17, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

The reason rush is used is not because it is good for energy management, its used because it can be used more than sprint, which in turn means less getting worked by frenzy.

--just a litte fyi, please dont use tiger stance, and if you do, count out any spiking with your warrior.