Curse

Mr Urthadar · Jul 19, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

There's a discussion going on between a few guildies about whether you can get away with Frenzy w/o a cancel stance. In certain cases, like a "Charge!" sword warrior, no cancel stance seems reasonable to me.

We are discussing whether a shock axe war should have a cancel stance. The proponents of "no cancel stance" state (quote from our forums) - "Ive just gotten to the point if turning the other way doesnt work and they really really want me dead frenzy or not ill be gone anyway. So why not land that death evis taking the ele down right as you die."

I believe that instead of `going for the kill at the cost of DP', you cancel out and have a chance of survival.

I don't know if there is a right-or-wrong answer to this. Any thoughts?

ju

JYX · Jul 19, 2006, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Why wouldn't you have sprint/rush? These are essential skills anyway. It's not as if you're taking some garbage like mantra of earth in order to cancel your frenzy. If the warrior is preparing to drop every time he gets snared/focused upon, there is something very wrong. Thinking that frenzying all the time without worrying about canceling will net you a kill for sure, or even more kills than deaths is fanciful to say the least. What about all the times when he has no “death evisc” and just gets absolutely creamed? If you run frenzy with no cancel in any sort of competitive situation you will be punished hard for it. This isn't about "going for the kill". Canceling late because you want to finish your combo is "going for the kill", no cancel stance means you will be missing the skill in adren building and using it only very sparingly, either that or you're preparing to get it handed to you anyway. It sounds like your warriors are of the latter inclination.

Tiger’s stance has some haters, I think that it is a fair skill and useful for spiking, especially so on a sword warrior. I would definitely run this above a frenzy with cancel stance on a “Charge!” sword warrior. Frenzy with no cancel has been used before on a Charge warrior, as far as I've spectated WM playing this, in each time it was fielded it was used very very sparingly in spikes only or as a last push while rolling. In this situation I think Tiger's Stance would see far more use, be a great deal more viable.

Greedy Gus · Jul 19, 2006, 01:00 PM // 13:00

I've played charge sword wars with frenzy and no cancel and been fine. You have to be a little more cautious, but even then you're probably getting more use out of it than tiger's stance.

But yeah, you need some sort of run buff anyway, so I'm wondering why there was ever a discussion about an axe war...

Guinea Fig · Jul 19, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

I see no reason for an axe or hammer warrior to go without a stance cancel.

Sword warriors with charge the only ones I've seen who really have a reason to go without a cancel stance. They get pretty tight on skill slots if they take sprint, frenzy, charge, rez sig, heal sig... then only 3 slots left for utility and attack skills. There a lot of skills that you could use such as bullstrike, shock, plague touch + 3 sword attack skills. Dropping sprint on this guy might not be such a bad idea.

JR · Jul 19, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I've played charge sword wars with frenzy and no cancel and been fine. You have to be a little more cautious, but even then you're probably getting more use out of it than tiger's stance.

But yeah, you need some sort of run buff anyway, so I'm wondering why there was ever a discussion about an axe war...

Pretty sure I'm not the only player who watches for Warriors who don't seem to have cancel stances; to then prepare a spike on them.

Mr Urthadar · Jul 19, 2006, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Thanks for all the replies. Because we're a fledgling GvG guild (read not on the ladder ATM), we don't see many `converge on frenzied' warriors, so my friend thinks he can get away with this (maybe rightfully so ATM).

However, I think we should be playing in a more reasonable, orthodox manner. You know - the basics

.

Thanks again everyone,
ju

Bowstring Badass · Jul 19, 2006, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Always take a cancel stance like rush or sprint with frenzy. So many times I have been caught with Frenzy up and wishing sprint was recharged barely escaping death in GvG.

DocHollidae · Jul 19, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

I play warrior in GvG primarily, with sword being my favorite. On a charge warrior I never bring a stance toggle or ever considered tiger's stance over frenzy. I do admit that you have to be a lot more cautious with frenzy since you have nothing to toggle it off. One advantage I do like however is that I can charge and frenzy at the same time for added pressure on targets. Playing without the stance toggle takes getting used to and you have to learn to disengage as soon as you feel a spike or huge damage coming. After playing a charge warrior so much and then switching to warriors that have stance toggles I found that I wouldn't toggle regardless. It just take more caution and a good idea for opposing warriors coming to spike you.

In regards to axe and hammer warriors you should always have 2 stance between a speed boost and attack boost so stance toggling should always be there when needed.

Opposing teams will target frenzied warriors when they can. Spike are fairly easy against frenzied warriors, but as warriors are usually target callers, opposing warriors are rarely a priority as targets. Usually I'll try and check on opposing warriors every now and then to keep them honest, but when the opportunity arises frenzied warriors are usually an easy spike kill.

Farin · Jul 19, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Charge! Sword warriors are the only character I don't bring a stance cancel with, even then I'm pretty cautious when using it. Axe and Hammer without a speed boost would be so weird, what do you wanna take in it's place anyway? A Speed boost is a must in my opinion.

Greedy Gus · Jul 19, 2006, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Pretty sure I'm not the only player who watches for Warriors who don't seem to have cancel stances; to then prepare a spike on them.

I think you might be. I've never been camped for not having a cancel, and if I was I just wouldn't use frenzy? It's not hard to determine that no enemy spikes are being attempted and warriors are camping near you. I'll take that tradeoff every time, having less spikes on my soft teammates for using frenzy more cautiously or not at all without a cancel.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 19, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocHollidae

but as warriors are usually target callers, opposing warriors are rarely a priority as targets. Usually I'll try and check on opposing warriors every now and then to keep them honest, but when the opportunity arises frenzied warriors are usually an easy spike kill.

Incorrect. While warriors usually are target callers, it's absolutely crucial for a team to watch for warrior overextensions and punish them accordingly. DP on a warrior is more damaging than DP on any other target, because it prevents the warrior from playing as aggressively as he needs to. I've seen matches won and lost from a massive morale advantage, simply because one team got a couple kills on a warrior and were able to prevent the other team from getting any more kills.

A good team will punish you once they realize you have no cancel stance. There's a good chance they don't even need the warriors there to spike you - just throw a couple skills like Energy Burn and Lightning Orb the warrior's way and watch him explode.

I would much prefer to drop Healing Signet on a Charge sword guy to Sprint. It's rare that we've been forced to send more than one warrior into a skirmish situation without healing support. It's great to have at least one Heal Sig warrior in your build, but I don't think every warrior needs to carry it.

Greedy Gus · Jul 19, 2006, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

it's absolutely crucial for a team to watch for warrior overextensions and punish them accordingly.

Easier said than done. Most balanced teams especially simply do not have the tools in their build to quickly punish overextension, as their own offense is warrior based. If you fall back and the enemy monks are good, they push up right along with you and save the warrior. Or the warrior may have endure and pop it off keeping himself safe. If you fall your frontline back to kill a warrior, you better do it right, because you lose position because of it.

I do agree that if you can do it, you should always kill warriors and that will neuter the enemy offense if you get enough DP on them.

Byron · Jul 20, 2006, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Go Tiger's Fury, IMO. 16/9/9/7 split, can keep heal sig and 4 attack skills.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 20, 2006, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Easier said than done. Most balanced teams especially simply do not have the tools in their build to quickly punish overextension, as their own offense is warrior based. If you fall back and the enemy monks are good, they push up right along with you and save the warrior. Or the warrior may have endure and pop it off keeping himself safe. If you fall your frontline back to kill a warrior, you better do it right, because you lose position because of it.

Agreed, I don't think sending your warriors back is usually a great choice. In some 3-warrior builds you can sometimes afford to have one warrior harrassing their warriors and keeping constant pressure on their frontline, but in a standard 2-warrior offense you want to keep your warriors on your own frontline.

However, I honestly think a lot of balanced builds would be able to drop a warrior even without using their own warriors. Bear in mind that since warriors typically play a little outside monk range, it's easy to get off a quick two-skill combo for damaging them before they get a heal. Let's look at what a few two-skill combos under Frenzy will do.

Orb + Strike/Enervating at 16 Air - 318 damage.
Mind Wrack + Energy Burn at 14 Dom - 330 damage.
Shadow Strike + Vamp Gaze at 14 Blood - Edit: 195 damage

There are obviously others as well - Gaze from Beyond for Rits, Cripshot + Savage Shot for rangers, and horribly damaging combos from teleporting assassins.

Any two of these will kill a warrior who can't swap out of Frenzy, with nothing he can do about it. Are these skill combos really that uncommon in balanced build? Would you stake your offense on the opposition not running any of them?

DP also makes this a lot worse. Once the warrior's taken one death the spike is almost unsavable if two characters are involved. Once he's at 30% DP characters will be able to solo-spike him with combos like the above. He'll be fighting a losing battle to stay alive even if he's always sitting in monk range - forget about killing anything.

Even if one of these combos fails to kill him, the other team still gets screwed up. Their monks have to push forward to heal, making them more vulnerable, and they also have to spend a lot of energy healing this large spike of damage. Having to infuse can really hurt when your team is under a lot of pressure, especially if it happens every single time the warrior extends to spike.

Overall, I just think it's too dangerous to Frenzy without a cancel stance against good teams. Sprint and Rush are useful enough, even with Charge on your bar, that I wouldn't begrudge them the spot anyway.

Evilsod · Jul 20, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Doing some GvGs a few days ago, catching a warrior with his pants down (frenzy) hurts. Catching him with his pants down and finding he has no way to pull them back up, he's dead. My Lightning Orbs were hitting for 200+ damage on Frenzy warriors, followed by the Lightning Strike and you get around 300 damage for practically nothing. All it takes is 1 tiny overextension keeping you out of monk range and no cancel stance on frenzy and your dead from just very basic skills. Even an assassin can dish out alot of damage in that situation.

HA, since practically any build can spike if they have Vent/TS, a warrior using Frenzy and having no way to cancel means the spike has a 90% chance of paying off. Some spikes can kill you either way, but surely you'd rather make sure?

I've seen it in TA recently aswell. Warriors going after the monk with Frenzy and suddenly a barbed trap hits em from nowhere and a bunny thumper takes them down. The ones that have a cancel stance can usually survive if they see it fast enough, the ones who don't perish.

Edit: Wasteland, Frenzy doesn't double life steal as far as i know. If i'm wrong, glory to a touchy.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 20, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

No, you're right, it doesn't. I didn't double the Vamp Gaze damage for that reason, but I forgot that half of shadow strike is also lifesteal. Fixed now.

Thom Bangalter · Jul 20, 2006, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Go Tiger's Fury, IMO. 16/9/9/7 split, can keep heal sig and 4 attack skills.

tiger's fury is teh sexy. charge+tiger's fury is so awesome it's crazy. energy hungry though, so bring a zealous sword (but you already do...right? RIGHT?!)

Byron · Jul 20, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

but you already do...right? RIGHT?!

No, I bring my 19/20 sundering. (lol)

Farin · Jul 20, 2006, 08:53 AM // 08:53

I use vamp. I rarely need energy on sword warriors, and If I do i just switch to my zealous.

Vindexus · Jul 20, 2006, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Personally I just drop the Heal Sig if it's replacing a stance cancel. Being able to cancel Frenzy saves more lives than Heal Sig does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Agreed, I don't think sending your warriors back is usually a great choice. In some 3-warrior builds you can sometimes afford to have one warrior harrassing their warriors and keeping constant pressure on their frontline, but in a standard 2-warrior offense you want to keep your warriors on your own frontline.

I'd have to say that's quite simply very false. There are plenty of times where I want to get the pressure off our monks cause they've called that their energy is low and me and the other warrior have sent their's running.