Curse

Asrial · Jul 18, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

What builds were Idiot Savants using to steamroll the competition?

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 18, 2006, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Dual smite, just like everyone else in the top 20. It's one of the best steamrolling builds.

Byron · Jul 18, 2006, 07:17 AM // 07:17

The W/R skillbar has become somewhat popular in a dual smite:

sever artery
gash
quivering blade?
Tiger's Fury
charm animal
comfort animal
Retreat
Resurrection signet

Otherwise, two thumpers, two aoe smiters, 2 monks (boon and Healing Hands or B-light) and a flag runner. Very effective pressure build, IMO.

Greedy Gus · Jul 18, 2006, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quivering Blade is garbage, they were running Bull's charge. Also no comfort animal (they wanted the pet to die), final thrust. And frenzy, not tiger's fury.

It was sort of a combination of the classic KGYU frontline warriors, Bull's charge + "retreat" (functioning as a "charge" with the level 5 pet dead). Which freed up a melee slot for another thumper.

Basically every top American team was running 3 melee characters and 2 offensive support chars, along with two monks and a runner. The main difference was in the support chars: MH was running dom mesmers, iQ had the smiters, KGYU had degen rangers, and Te was using a dom mesmer and a water ele I believe before they found out they were going to Germany. The frontlines varied slightly but they were pressure oriented warriors/thumpers.

By the end iQ's version prevailed against the others when they fought, no doubt in part due to the aegis chain, and the other teams switched to running it too (along with renO and WM universal).

Lubaka · Jul 18, 2006, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Dual smite, just like everyone else in the top 20. It's one of the best steamrolling builds.

Hm, what do you mean by "just like everyone else in the top 20"?
Idiot Savants was the first top guild which started with that abusive build. Everyone else was playing some non-fotm build until iQ took the lead with a huge difference of the points. Then RenO, WM Universal, MH and so on started playing double/tripple smite cause thay had no other chance of winning the first place.

But to say that everyone in top20 played double smite is ridiculous and offensive for the guilds that played their own balanced builds...

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 18, 2006, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

By the end iQ's version prevailed against the others when they fought, no doubt in part due to the aegis chain, and the other teams switched to running it too (along with renO and WM universal).

iQ also ran a Healing Seed, IIRC, which proved a massive help against the pressure damage of smite.

Vindexus · Jul 18, 2006, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lubaka

Hm, what do you mean by "just like everyone else in the top 20"?
Idiot Savants was the first top guild which started with that abusive build. Everyone else was playing some non-fotm build until iQ took the lead with a huge difference of the points. Then RenO, WM Universal, MH and so on started playing double/tripple smite cause thay had no other chance of winning the first place.

But to say that everyone in top20 played double smite is ridiculous and offensive for the guilds that played their own balanced builds...

I don't think he was meaning to be taken literally. Like, duh.

Greedy Gus · Jul 19, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

iQ also ran a Healing Seed, IIRC, which proved a massive help against the pressure damage of smite.

Not at first (pretty sure). They changed to counter smite when their competitors started running it. By that time their lead was already impressive.

Asrial · Jul 19, 2006, 01:40 AM // 01:40

75-4.. why don't they use this build in higher level competitive play?

JR · Jul 19, 2006, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asrial

75-4.. why don't they use this build in higher level competitive play?

I don't think the win/loss ratio (and through that rank) of guilds from the three day event really shows a whole lot in the bigger picture. There were a lot of very mediocre guilds playing over those three days, trying fairly hopelessly to get a silver cape or even a trip to germany. Also iQ's build was fairly well metagamed against what other teams were running at the time. Through the course of a full proper ladder season that may not prove to be flexible enough.

Not that I don't think iQ deserved the #1 spot, infact I am glad they got it.

Byron · Jul 19, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Quivering Blade is garbage, they were running Bull's charge. Also no comfort animal (they wanted the pet to die), final thrust. And frenzy, not tiger's fury.

You're probably right about Bull's charge. They would only use comfort animal after the pet had died and they had moved on (Retreat is an area skill). I'm 99% sure they had comfort animal, otherwise retreat would only be good in one area. As for Frenzy or TF - some IAS was there, and both make some sense.

Greedy Gus · Jul 19, 2006, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I'm 99% sure they had comfort animal, otherwise retreat would only be good in one area.

Did they have 9 skill slots? Otherwise, there are 7 more important skills. The bar was:

Sever
Gash
Final Thrust
Frenzy
Bull's Charge
"Retreat!"
Charm Animal
Resurrection Signet

The pet serves its purpose and after you roll someone, who cares where the body is, IWAY style.

Patrograd · Jul 19, 2006, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

The pet serves its purpose and after you roll someone who cares where the body is, IWAY style.

Pets now suffer DP from what i can gather, but do not benefit from morale boosts, which is a pretty hefty nerf to this tactic and to thumpers in general

Greedy Gus · Jul 19, 2006, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Pets now suffer DP from what i can gather, but do not benefit from morale boosts, which is a pretty hefty nerf to this tactic and to thumpers in general

What are you talking about? Is anyone listening? The W/R pet is low level preferably and is supposed to die and will stay dead the rest of the game unless the warrior dies. Who cares if the pet gets DP, when it helps it die faster?

Thumpers on the other hand don't want their pet to die because it adds to their DPS, fuels their energy with ferocious strike, and resets their adrenaline when it dies.

Farin · Jul 19, 2006, 09:35 AM // 09:35

I think I saw them try Charge! for a match or two, Bull's Charge is pretty nice though.

Off Topic: I see iQ got a gold trim, did the other 15 guilds get a silver trim as well? We would've gone for top 16 if we knew.. =(

Patrograd · Jul 19, 2006, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Thumpers on the other hand don't want their pet to die because it adds to their DPS, fuels their energy with ferocious strike, and resets their adrenaline when it dies.

Right, but now if you target a thumpers pets he *has* to keep them alive, he cannot allow them to die as otherwise they become easier to kill next time

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor, IQ, from their forum

This nerf is pretty close to making pets unplayable in GvG because any reliance on them is going to be thwarted by them being squishy as hell. I'd suggest that monks could learn to heal the pets, but at the same time pets can be aggro'ed and lured into bodyguard areas and love rambo'ing otherwise, so the DP is pretty much guaranteed.

So where before your pet dieing was an annoyance, it was hardly a disaster as a thumper builds adrenaline fast. Now if your pet dies, its a big issue, making the targetting of pets a big defence against this build. Can comfort animal spam keep up with a serious attack on a pet? Even if it can, i would suggest that a thumper spending all his time spamming comfort animal represents considerably less threat than a thumper spamming attack skills. A monk spending time and energy on healing pets is also good.

As for the W/R build, yes it is less of an issue, but it remains the case that when the warrior rezzzes in base, his pet no longer rezzes with him as was the case before once it has died four times, which as you point out will happen very quickly. Instead, he will now need to go to the pet's corpse and perform a long cast time spell to bring the pet back if he wants to move the area of effect from retreat to somewhere different. There is no guarantee that he would be able to get to that area and perform the rez in any kind of safety. While this is only a minor change to this particular aspect of the team build, the change for the thumpers is, i would suggest, massive, as their pets will now be actively targetted as a priority, which wasn't really the case before

Greedy Gus · Jul 19, 2006, 11:21 AM // 11:21

It's a complete non-issue. The Silmor quote perfectly illustrates the point: the only reliance on the pet in the first place in this case is for it to be 'squishy as hell'. And I haven't yet heard that pets can get 60'ed out even if they take DP, henchies don't. And even still if they do, you have more important things than a nice pet/dead ally synergy to worry about if your warrior has died and auto-ressed 4 times.

Patrograd · Jul 19, 2006, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

you have more important things than a nice pet/dead ally synergy to worry about if your warrior has died and auto-ressed 4 times.

No, the warrior only has to die and auto rez one time for it to be an issue, it is his pet that wont auto rez after it has incurred four deaths, and as you say, you are asking the pet to committ suicide. you want it to die for it to serve its purpose. You let it die, you abuse retreat, then when the battle moves you rez and repeat.

As I say, its only a minor issue with regards to the W/R, as it will only affect him after four rinse/repeat cycles and if he gets auto rezzed, but the change to the thumpers is much bigger than you are allowing for I think, not so much in how you play a thumper, which is unaffected largely, but in the strength of the counter to the build, namely repeatedly killing pets. In the past I think that most teams havent seriously targetted the pets, now I think that most probably will. A thumper with a heavily DPd pet is next to useless as he will spend all his time with all his skills disabled, and the rest of the time involved in rezzing his animal, which will die almost immediately after once it acquires significant DP.

Greedy Gus · Jul 19, 2006, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

No, the warrior only has to die and auto rez one time for it to be an issue, it is his pet that wont auto rez after it has incurred four deaths, and as you say, you are asking the pet to committ suicide. you want it to die for it to serve its purpose. You let it die, you abuse retreat, then when the battle moves you rez and repeat.

As I say, its only a minor issue with regards to the W/R, as it will only affect him after four rinse/repeat cycles and if he gets auto rezzed, but the change to the thumpers is much bigger than you are allowing for I think, not so much in how you play a thumper, which is unaffected largely, but in the strength of the counter to the build, namely repeatedly killing pets. In the past I think that most teams havent seriously targetted the pets, now I think that most probably will. A thumper with a heavily DPd pet is next to useless as he will spend all his time with all his skills disabled, and the rest of the time involved in rezzing his animal, which will die almost immediately after once it acquires significant DP.

This has already derailed a rather pointless thread, but I'll respond. My whole point was that the pet DP issue had no bearing to the discussion on the particular W/R build iQ ran (posted above. Note: no pet res, it will only res when the warrior auto-resses); it's not debateable, it doesn't affect that build in the least. You just read something on iQ's forum and decided to share, just that you picked a wrong quote to bring it up over, because it was completely irrelevant.

If you want to discuss whether or not the standard R/W thumpers iQ ran are still viable however, that's probably valid, and might as well take place where it started on iQ's forum.

If you want to debate that iQ should have ran comfort animal instead of res sig on the W/R, I doubt you're going to get anywhere. It's just a simple little trick and not really worth sacrificing more useful skills in order to pull up a pet when the battle moves...especially considering "retreat" still works on the other pets and dead teammates, it's not wholly dependant on the warrior's low-level pet.

sir lockt · Jul 19, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

To bring it back on topic...and off the thumper discusion (...)

Its rather impressive they ran such a high statistic, so much games in such a short period of time, and this could only be done with the smite setup. Still this is no garantee for succes so that explaines why elite-guilds in the "normal' season did not massively switch to smiting. (I can remember a play-off battle where a balanced iB beats the hack out of a triple-smite build...)

iQ battled well and the effectiveness of their smite build was mainly due to the overall level of competing guilds during this event. it was frankly quite low...(comparing with the "normal" top 20 guilds...) smiting is quite abusive when using it against guilds that are not prepared for it... of course iQ is a very experienced guild and they went for the Leipzig...

They deserve it... and to be honest... you could expect smiting would win the weekend. So countering them would have been a nice thing to kill some time for the guilds who could not field a team for 72 hrs and thus compete seriously for the last ticket