Curse

Seef II · Jun 06, 2006, 05:34 AM // 05:34

300 (yay).
Axe Rake's cripple is nice, but the extra added damage is anemic and if you want someone dead two attacks ago, you could always swing for one more adrenaline and use Furious Axe.

Byron · Jun 06, 2006, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Axe rake is among my favorite axe skills, since the cripple effect not only snares the target, but also provides a cover condition for deep wound.

I find that it is a tricky skill to get the hang of. I most often bring three adrenal skills on my axe warrior: Eviscerate (obviously), Axe rake, and Executioner's strike. On a KD target (from shock, bull's strike, or your hammer buddy), I find it best to hit axe rake right after eviscerate, considering the first thing an enemy monk is going to upon getting up is mend ailment or CoP(if he/she is smart). Therefore, the harder the deep wound is to remove, the better. Executioner's Strike then comes after rake, and often lands for big damage. And if the monk doesn't mend or CoP right away, the cripple effect will allow the frenzy to keep going. And if it's not a monk target, then CoP isn't even a concern.

But on a standing target, the more typical eviscerate->executioner's is still my suggestion. I bring in axe rake after Executioner's if possible. I realize that my tactics seem backwards, but I've put in enough practice to see the effects. Hoping to kill with eviscerate->executioner's means relying on critical hits, which I'm not inclined to do. With all three skills on the bar, I can always choose what order to hit enemies with.

...as for hammers, they have no cripple attack.

AhuraMazda · Jun 10, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

True but given the choice I would prefer rush speed buff over a conditional cripple.

With axe rake you always seem to be dreading that white symbol thing that shows it has been removed as you hack someone from behind, whereas with rush you tend to just smile grimly and chase the dude nailing him from behind.

Not to mention that actually using rush in a fight can be effectivly a constant speed buff at only one extra adrenaline pip per adrenaline bar 'cycle'. Meaning that using rush lowers all your other skills adrenaline by one pip, and so is an extremelly worthwhile addition.

Cripple is good, but both cripple and a speed buff result in some slowdown in landing hits against a target moving away, and from my experiance that rate of slowdown in landing hits seems to be identical. Although technically there might be a fraction of a difference.

I find using deep wound - rake combos you always tend to lean towards a third condition for cover, or you dont feel entireally safe. Not to mention say in 4v4 having to accurately judge and time for skills such as CoP etc. However any good warrior should already be highly skilled in that aspect of combat.

One semi off topic point. In my testing of various warrior builds it seems to me that hamstring doesnt count as a condition when using Victory Is Mine.

I have run a warrior using hamstring - sever artery - gash, and another using dismember - axe rake - axe twist.
When using ViM with both of these warriors, the sword warrior only receives HP equal to two conditions, while the Axe warrior receives the expected three.

Has anyone else noticed this? And any idea why this is the case?

stueyman2099 · Jun 10, 2006, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

One semi off topic point. In my testing of various warrior builds it seems to me that hamstring doesnt count as a condition when using Victory Is Mine.

I have run a warrior using hamstring - sever artery - gash, and another using dismember - axe rake - axe twist.
When using ViM with both of these warriors, the sword warrior only receives HP equal to two conditions, while the Axe warrior receives the expected three.

tried it in the isle of the nameless.. worked just fine, got 168 hp and 15 nrg (56 hp per condition, and 5 energy) for hamstring, sever and gash

SaintGreg · Jun 10, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

with rush you tend to just smile grimly and chase the dude nailing him from behind

QFT - While its not the same glee as attacking a crippled target, using rush and bull's strike you can't help but smile grimly as they try to kite away

fb2000 · Jun 10, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

Cripple is good, but both cripple and a speed buff result in some slowdown in landing hits against a target moving away, and from my experiance that rate of slowdown in landing hits seems to be identical. Although technically there might be a fraction of a difference.

i dont seem to understand this, do you mean that if you're using a speed boost chasing and bashing at a crippled foe you'd land less hits in the same time than if you did the same on a not-crippled foe?
i always try hit rake directly after eviscerate, as mentioned already, covers deep, and when the target tries to get away you still get some criticals on their back

. and it is a nice utility skill vs say touch rangers (playing mostly in TA, I can say its saved the life of some party member on several occasions)
tried once evisc-rake-exe-furious just for fun, but thing is most often than not furious doesnt get used ^^

im not feeling so hot about Bulls Strike, i found most of the decent players actually expect you to use it, and stop moving :<. I also cant really understand why some warriors spam Protectors Strike once they get a coupla hits on a target, seen this on HA, the targets didnt move once for the protectors to trigger

PS wasnt this supposed to be a hammer warrior thread ;P

DieInBasra · Jun 11, 2006, 01:58 AM // 01:58

PS means they're effectivly doing 8 hits every 9 seconds instead of 6 hits every 8(no IAS). It's also good for when you spike, sorta like how Savage Shot is used in Rspike.

Byron · Jun 11, 2006, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

True but given the choice I would prefer rush speed buff over a conditional cripple.

Take both? I know I do.

Protector's strike, I find, is pretty amazing for pressuring targets, since it lands for big damage from any weapon against a moving target. The quick hit time also makes it quite nifty to bring in after a deep wound attack. EG = Before dragon slash came about, I used to love bringing the combo sever->gash->protector's->final. The protector's focuses the deep wound in half the time, and final thrust usually lands before enemy healers can react. Though, my favorite aspect of the attack is that protectors is a nice, spammable pressure skill to use whlie waiting for andrenaline to charge.

As for use of protector's on a hammer warrior? I find it interesting at best, since hammer already have a very useful energy based attack with moderate spammability: irresistible blow. Protector's would be a welcome fast attack from a hammer, but given the fact that hammers already have energy woes, I think a hammer warrior's bar would have to bend around protector's strike. It's not feasible to run irresistible and protector's on the same bar, and each have their advantages. A KD->crushing blow->protector's strike->hit combo is very powerful, since it takes a big chunk of time off. But of course, protector's doesn't have that nice "cannot be evaded" clause.

Greedy Gus · Jun 11, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

The quick hit time also makes it quite nifty to bring in after a deep wound attack. EG = Before dragon slash came about, I used to love bringing the combo sever->gash->protector's->final. The protector's focuses the deep wound in half the time, and final thrust usually lands before enemy healers can react.

A KD->crushing blow->protector's strike->hit combo is very powerful, since it takes a big chunk of time off.

I find your thinking rather backwards. To me, the beauty of deep wound triggering on the next hit was bringing the biggest hitter out for that next hit, for taking the insane chunk of health of their bar in a single hit and catching their monks off-guard.

For example, on a hammer chain, why would you want to devastating->crushing->protectors->fierce rather than the other way around? Your way gets two big hits, the protectors with deep wound triggering, and the last attack (something like a fierce blow). If you do devastating->crushing->fierce->protectors, you get one massive hit to their health bar in fierce + deep wound triggering, then the protectors comes in to finish off the combo a split second after the big spike, hopefully for the killing blow or at least before the monk reacts to that huge hit.

This is also the reason for one of the most devastating combos, the 6-hit sword kill. With sever/gash/final charged, you could go up to a 60AL target and do sever/hit/hit/gash/final/hit and kill them (random factor permitting). And it would be a huge surprise to their monks because after the gash, the target looked to be at around 60% health. By combining the deep wound trigger with your biggest hit, you could drop 45%+ of their health in that one shot. Using protector's in between just doesn't make sense to me, it does wonders as the final quick hit after the money shot though.

Byron · Jun 12, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

To me, the beauty of deep wound triggering on the next hit was bringing the biggest hitter out for that next hit, for taking the insane chunk of health of their bar in a single hit and catching their monks off-guard.

There is art in that approach, and that is the way that I prefer to go, since it does indeed take a huge chunk out of a health bar. My argument for protector's strike was to land as many hits as possible in the shortest time possible; as long as you got the protector's strike somewhere sensible in the combo, it works.

For me,though, it's an issue of practice. A devestating->crushing->fierce combo takes about 3.5 seconds to complete under frenzy. Then, we have to consider that RoF takes only .25s to cast, so it's not reasonable to think a good, unstressed monk won't counter that hammer combo. A protector's strike mixed in there gives a better chance of making the deep wound count. Devestating->crushing->protector's lands in about 2.8s, which can be followed up with fierce blow for a total combo duration of about 4s. That .5s difference for a combo with an extra hit seems worth considering, but the important part is that the deep wound attack will almost certainly be cashed.

If you find your against a team with sub-par monks, or no boon-prots, then a more effective combo would be devestating->crushing->fierce->protector's, or devestating->protector's->crushing->fierce. That way, you will get the shock value of the big attack coming after the deep wound, but also get 4 attacks in about 4s.

That said, protector's after the deep wound means there is not as much of a health-bar shock, but the damage still lands the same.

**EDIT= Apparently Devastating isn't spelled with an "e" in the middle. I mispelled it many times, so I won't bother to edit it.

Greedy Gus · Jun 12, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

I don't understand the usefulness of getting a "better chance of making the deep wound count". As far as I could tell, even though the deep wound health drop doesn't trigger until the next hit, if it is enough to kill them the death does trigger on it. So you shouldn't be worried about making sure to register the deep wound as quick as possible if it's going for a kill.

If it's not going to score a kill, when do you care when the deep wound is going to register?

Now if you're just worried about trying to do a fast spike in regard to the other monk, then yeah maybe do a dev->crushing->prot. But for the guy you're knocking down, you can do a frenzied dev->crushing->fierce->prot before they get up and can RoF.

suiraCLAW · Jun 12, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

the targets didnt move once for the protectors to trigge

Portector's is used for the same reason as savage after marauders/dual shot: to get 2 hits in the same time you would need for one.

Byron · Jun 13, 2006, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

If it's not going to score a kill, when do you care when the deep wound is going to register?

My main concern is with the deep wound landing before prots arrive - If the target is going to die, then it is going to die whether protector's comes before, after, or in between. It does seem most sensible to bring in a quick attack to focus the deep wound on a hammer build, since they are already hurt by slow attack speed. If say, you ran Crushing->fierce after the KD, thats about 2.4s to execute. But crushing->protector's takes only 1.7s - a big difference IMO, even if the killing power isn't quite as dramatic. And just as well, a protector's strike after a crushing blow will still take a hefty chunk out of an enemy's bar.

The thing is, with protector's on the bar, the hammer warrior can use his/her discretion as to when to use it.

Fenix Swiftblade · Jun 14, 2006, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

My main concern is with the deep wound landing before prots arrive - If the target is going to die, then it is going to die whether protector's comes before, after, or in between. It does seem most sensible to bring in a quick attack to focus the deep wound on a hammer build, since they are already hurt by slow attack speed. If say, you ran Crushing->fierce after the KD, thats about 2.4s to execute. But crushing->protector's takes only 1.7s - a big difference IMO, even if the killing power isn't quite as dramatic. And just as well, a protector's strike after a crushing blow will still take a hefty chunk out of an enemy's bar.

The thing is, with protector's on the bar, the hammer warrior can use his/her discretion as to when to use it.

I think the point here is when the opposing monks can see that the target needs healing. If Deep Wound doesn't focus on the health bar (but is actually active on the target as soon as you apply it) until the first time you hit them after applying it, you have some leeway to get a huge spike in. If you are hurting the other team enough, the monk will be wary about when he heals your target. Say you hit Backbreaker->Crushing Blow->Mighty Blow->Protector's Strike. After the first two hits, your target is most likely under half health due to the deep wound. However, on a monks party window, it appears that the target is still a good bit above half health, as the deep wound hasn't focused yet. You hit him with Mighty Blow, and to the monk, it looks like that target just lost most of his health, and unless your target had been yelling for a prot as soon as you started running to him, this is when the monks will start to react. If you follow up right after Mighty Blow with Protectors Strike, you have a good chance of effectively spiking for 250-300 damage all at once; Deep Wound, Mighty Blow, and Protectors Strike all appearing on the health bar at once to the enemy monk.

Byron · Jun 15, 2006, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

If you follow up right after Mighty Blow with Protectors Strike, you have a good chance of effectively spiking for 250-300 damage all at once; Deep Wound, Mighty Blow, and Protectors Strike all appearing on the health bar at once to the enemy monk.

A very good point, I must admit. In spiking situations, then, it would make most sense to hit protectors after the third attack in the combo. I am convinced.

Winstar · Jun 30, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

I love hammers. I personally hate swords in pvp and think they are the odd man out. If I had 2 warriors I'd have 1 hammer and 1 axe. With Frenzy up I find that chaining you skills is perfectly timed and pretty much deadly. The ability to keep your target on the floor while spiking is priceless.

DieInBasra · Jun 30, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

I love hammers. I personally hate swords in pvp and think they are the odd man out. If I had 2 warriors I'd have 1 hammer and 1 axe. With Frenzy up I find that chaining you skills is perfectly timed and pretty much deadly. The ability to keep your target on the floor while spiking is priceless.

While It's nice to have that unconditional knockdown, shock is a pretty go replacement as long as you're spikeing with it every other spike. Two shock wars is pretty similar to one hammer, in terms of spike knockdown. It really depends on the build. For a pressure/spike build leaning more towards spike, unless you're useing DC warriors, I'd go either axeaxe or axesword, since final thrust is such a strong skill, and charge really increases the overall dps and mobility of your group.

Winstar · Jun 30, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

While It's nice to have that unconditional knockdown, shock is a pretty go replacement as long as you're spikeing with it every other spike. Two shock wars is pretty similar to one hammer, in terms of spike knockdown. It really depends on the build. For a pressure/spike build leaning more towards spike, unless you're useing DC warriors, I'd go either axeaxe or axesword, since final thrust is such a strong skill, and charge really increases the overall dps and mobility of your group.

I do like charge, but I don't like it as much as having a hammer around. There is also something about shock that is a little more awkward then a straight hammer KD. I ran both a charge sword and Hammer in our pressure build with an axe as the other warrior and I felt like the spike was just more effective with the hammer.

Byron · Jul 01, 2006, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

I felt like the spike was just more effective with the hammer.

With an IAS such as frenzy, nothing can outdamage a hammer chain. The problems are already said: it takes more time to build combos, KD attacks are costly, crushing blow needs KD (where eviscerate doesn't), and the attack speed is slower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

While It's nice to have that unconditional knockdown, shock is a pretty go replacement as long as you're spikeing with it every other spike

Personally, I much prefer the adrenaline cost of a devastating hammer which lands for 50-80 damage than an exhuasting spell that lands for 10-30 damage. Though it is a most useful skill, shock doesn't replace a hammer KD.

Byron · Jul 20, 2006, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Lately, it seems as if thumpers are slowly replacing the hammer warrior slot alltogether. So I ask the question - is that justified? Or, are in fact, hammer warriors worth it?

Thumpers have their uses - constant pressure with pet attacks and continuous spamming of energy-based attacks (thanks to expertise), but the damage factor is bleh, IMO. Their life may have been highlighted by the aoe smite sensation, but as the metagame evolves, I'm not sure thumpers will continue their popularity. With the latest pet "nerf," hammer warriors may come back to the forefront, if only for simplicity's sake.