Curse

granor · May 24, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

There really truly is no scarier condition than Deep Wound

quoted for truth

ghostof · May 24, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xasew

Forceful+Fierce is a nice idea and all, but won't work very well. It can't spike properly, because it doesn't effectively snare the target and without the KD there's no DW either. If you think you can kill just by hitting stuff until it dies because their Monks run out of energy, you're going to be a bit dissapointed. I'd run Devastating+Crushing+Fierce over Forceful+Fierce any day, because with just 1 more adrenaline I get a KD, a DW but still a nice amount of damage.

He is trying to get high dps to beat an axe over the course of a battle. As claimed he states he will win without a kd and deep wound as posted earlier in his build description. No one agrees because its foolish math to think deep wound stops being applied after the first spike. What about spike 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13. Every odd spike your chart has an axe with a higher dps. Not to mention real situations where most likely every single spike Axe is applying deep wound on the target.

Shock > Crushing (deep wound) > Forceful > fierce

Res, Heal, Rush

Still not a huge fan of this build but that might work. Its 15 E plus exhaustion but it has a condition cover. Your going to be long inbetween spikes but this might get you charting higher dps.

Your damage chart is simply assine. Conditions are removed, reapplied constantly in this game. Your chart is going to show every spike the axe reapplying deep wound as in all probability its going to be removed or have run out. Thus every dps chart is going to be higher for the axe. IMO

AhuraMazda · May 24, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

He is trying to get high dps to beat an axe over the course of a battle. As claimed he states he will win without a kd and deep wound as posted earlier in his build description. No one agrees because its foolish math to think deep wound stops being applied after the first spike. What about spike 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13. Every odd spike your chart has an axe with a higher dps. Not to mention real situations where most likely every single spike Axe is applying deep wound on the target.

You have no idea.

I am stating that two or three hammer warriors spiking a single target with forceful and feirce are going to do more damage than two or three axe spiking a single target relying on deep wound for their damage.

Because the deep wound applied by the first axe warrior to land Evisc is going to negate the increased damage of axe warrior number 2 and number 3.

It has nothing to do whatsoever with successive spikes, and everything to do with the mechanics of a spike.

Deep wound does not stack, therefore a large portion of damage dealt by warrior number two is negated.

Its foolish math when you do not understand what is being discussed. You can only apply one deep wound at a time, and a spike is as claimed by others, the attempt to apply massive amounts of damage before the enemy can react.

Should the ideal spike be pulled off, there will no be insta removal of deep wound so that axe warrior number two can receive the full damage output of his eviscerate.

Eviscerate without the benefit of the extra damage of deep wound is markedly less damaging than Forceful blow.

Therefore Forceful Blow and Feirce Blow does less damage than Eviscerate and executioners, except when the foe already has a deep wound in which case the hammer skills do ALOT more damage.

So if you use mutliple warriors on a single target, Eviscerate is going to be a much less damaging skill then Forceful Blow.

My math is not flawed, the points I have brought up have not been shown to be incorrect, just argued that the build isnt something 'people prefer'.

As many of you as you like can say that my arguement is flawed, but none of you have shown how it is flawed, when you have actually understood whats being said.

Eviscerate + executioners strike on a target suffering from a deep wound is MARKEDLY less damaging than Forceful and Feirce Blow.

Therefore the more warriors hit a single target at the same time, the more damaging the hammer spike becomes.

It is a simple concept, outside of the arguement around kiting, or knockdowns, or any of the other brought up, and a concept everyone on this board apart from me STILL REFUSES TO ADDRESS.

I am not arguing the merit of Eviscerate versus Forceful, as I already pulled out the numbers to show Eviscerate will do more damage, in simple comparison with no other factors mattering.

I am not arguing the merit of a deep wound.

I am pointing out that multiple AXES hitting the same target using Eviscerate is going to ultimatly generate less damage than Multiple Hammers hitting the target with simply Forceful and Feirce, INCLUDING the initial deep wound.

And if you want to prove me wrong, bring out the numbers/scenarios/arguements to say so.

But stop referring to base simple 1v1 comparions of damage, preferences of builds, or other issues that can be addressed by adding other skills to the other slots of your bar.

I trully sigh, it seems you are not even grasping the point im putting forward, yet still flame me to the best of your ability.

Serves me right for coming on the forums.

And as a side note, outside of the spike, the hammer is going to generate much more DoT.

Let me try my hardest to break it down as simple as I can.

The Damage of Eviscerate is higher than the Damage of Forceful blow.
Unless the target suffers from a deep wound.
In which case Forceful Blow outdamages Eviscerate.

This means if you use Eviscerate on a target your buddy has just eviscerated, say a split second later, it would have been much much better if he was using a hammer.

SIMPLE.

Now, will anyone other than me actually be able to grasp this concept now?

As for Shock - Crushing - Forceful - Feirce, thats actually a very very impressive point, and Ill try it out in my next GvG.

JR · May 24, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

I trully sigh, it seems you are not even grasping the point im putting forward, yet still flame me to the best of your ability.

Serves me right for coming on the forums.

Just to clear things up;
I was not arguing against the use of a Hammer Warrior, or the Forcefull -> Fierce combo. I was merely saying that having a Warrior without the ability to Deep Wound was silly. And I stand by that.

Your logic about Forcefull -> Fierce when paired with an Axe warrior is sound, and can't really be disputed. However I would have to get a knockdown with Crushing Blow in there somewhere. I actually think that this combo..:

- Forceful Blow [Elite] (Hammer Mastery)
- Fierce Blow (Hammer Mastery)
- Hammer Bash (Hammer Mastery)
- Crushing Blow (Hammer Mastery)

...has a fair bit of potential, if you don't need the KD at the start to snare.

It seems there may have been something of a misunderstanding, escalating the issue.

Seef II · May 24, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Yes, but why two eviscerates are run is for redundancy. Teams are willing to take the slight hit in damage (~20 points at most) for another shot at the deep wound. (The critical for an eviscerate is roughly 112 and a +42 hammer attack is 130.)

In a multi-warrior spike you have to plan for their flashbot sitting on your guys when he sees your warriors heading toward a monk or something. Or being kited. This is why adrenal spikes frequently start off with Bull's Strike, Shock, or a hammer KD. There's no chance for the target to run away when he's on his butt.

Sure, in a multi-warrior spike the axe guy can start off with shock and the hammer guy uses forceful+fierce, but you can achieve much of the same dps with a Backbreaker for the knockdown.

AhuraMazda · May 24, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Just to clear things up;

I was not arguing against the use of a Hammer Warrior, or the Forcefull -> Fierce combo. I was merely saying that having a Warrior without the ability to Deep Wound was silly. And I stand by that.

Well look, IMO it depends on how you put it on, and it was you yourself that said a spike is trying to pile on rapid damage before the enemy realises.

It doesnt matter when it goes on, in the 1-2 seconds of an adrenaline spike, but it DOES matter if putting on that deep wound in turn NERFS the damage of all your fellow AXE adren spikers.

So yes, putting on a deep wound is something to definatly be aimed for, but so is maximum damage in the shortest possible time.

These are not mutually inclusive, although deep wound IS VERY POWERFUL.

Therefore it might be worthwhile trying to find a source of deep wound outside of Eviscerate, or only running one single axe warrior, but even then there are still issues regarding the whole concept of pressure with spike.

The suggestion above of shock - crushing - Forceful - Feirce is IMO a really good way to harnass both a deep wound and what utlimatly is a larger source of damage, however thats a bit more time in which the opposing team can react.

Being able to take advantage of all of these considerations is something I personally am going to be looking at, I dont know about these multiple Evisc spike builds everyone loves hard.

I think we agree on much, just you are not a fan of the lack of deep wound, which I can understand, but ultimatly it comes down to the most effective way to hit the enemy hard and fast, and now thanks to Forceful and Feirce, there are OPTIONS and other considerations that can be taken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I actually think that this combo..:

- Forceful Blow [Elite] (Hammer Mastery)
- Fierce Blow (Hammer Mastery)
- Hammer Bash (Hammer Mastery)
- Crushing Blow (Hammer Mastery)

I would personally swap Hammer Bash for Heavy Blow which does extra damage as well as knockdown, however that requires weakness and hammer bash can be used on ANY foe, which definatly one of its strengths.

Or there is the shock - crushing - Forceful - Feirce someone suggested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

Yes, but why two eviscerates are run is for redundancy. Teams are willing to take the slight hit in damage (~20 points at most) for another shot at the deep wound. (The critical for an eviscerate is roughly 112 and a +42 hammer attack is 130.)

In a multi-warrior spike you have to plan for their flashbot sitting on your guys when he sees your warriors heading toward a monk or something. Or being kited. This is why adrenal spikes frequently start off with Bull's Strike, Shock, or a hammer KD. There's no chance for the target to run away when he's on his butt.

Sure, in a multi-warrior spike the axe guy can start off with shock and the hammer guy uses forceful+fierce, but you can achieve much of the same dps with a Backbreaker for the knockdown.

Personally, and this is just a purely personal opinion, I really like the massive damage that can be done under Frenzy without adrenaline, the rapid recharge of those adrenaline skills, and the definate large spike damage as long as the blows land.

However the hammer Frenzy pressure, and adrenaline spike, was the crener stone of a few builds we were running recently, so if you are not going specifically for frenzy hammer pressure and then absolute as high as you can get (lacking the deep wound yeah, thats a consideration to take into next gvg for sure) spike damage, you can easilly go for many other options to your warrior line.

And when it comes to splitting, it may well prove that the AXE is still supreme, unless you have a very good and well timed and unspotted spike KD hammer warrior like JR suggested.

In terms of pure damage, both under spike and overall pressure, and in split what about:

rush - frenzy - shock - crushing - forceful - feirce - heavy/bash - res.

Now there is absolutely no defence there. But here is what I usually run.

rush - frenzy - non shall pass - forceful - feirce - bash/heavy - endure pain - res

JR · May 24, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

I would personally swap Hammer Bash for Heavy Blow which does extra damage as well as knockdown, however that requires weakness and hammer bash can be used on ANY foe, which definatly one of its strengths.

Which is why I prefer Bash; I am a fan of the more unconditional skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

Or there is the shock - crushing - Forceful - Feirce someone suggested.

Another option I did consider, and discussed with a few people. I decided that with the 5 energy from Crushing already making spikes cost 15 energy to a Hammer Warrior, piling on exhaustion probably wasn't a good idea. Plus if you have a Shock Axe spiking with you, you get the first KD from them. Shortly after they get up the Bash will hit.

AhuraMazda · May 24, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

What about getting your mesmer to take phantom pain/shatter delusions and get them to join in one the adrenaline spike?

You dont want to pull a mesmer specifically into your build for just this one combo, as you could use a third warrior, and all your the number crunching etc becomes irrelevant.

But it could definatly be worthwhile, for the deep wound outside of the hammer, instant (i.e keeping up with the whole two skill ASAP spike concept) deep wound and damage.

If you are running heavy hammer pressure, and some kind of energy degeneration/mass denial mesmer build (I dont run mesmer much in gvg) then perhaps its worthwhile to find the space for this combo in the mesmer build.

Just bouncing ideas and options around.

JR · May 24, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

What about getting your mesmer to take phantom pain/shatter delusions and get them to join in one the adrenaline spike?

You dont want to pull a mesmer specifically into your build for just this one combo, as you could use a third warrior, and all your the number crunching etc becomes irrelevant.

But it could definatly be worthwhile, for the deep wound outside of the hammer, instant (i.e keeping up with the whole two skill ASAP spike concept) deep wound and damage.

If you are running heavy hammer pressure, and some kind of energy degeneration/mass denial mesmer build (I dont run mesmer much in gvg) then perhaps its worthwhile to find the space for this combo in the mesmer build.

Just bouncing ideas and options around.

There is a Dom mesmer in the build, strangely enough. I don't really like the idea of PP/SD mixed with adren spike though. I would rather have Shatter Enchant/Drain Enchant/Energy Burn.

I suppose you could argue; If you don't want to run PP/SD on a mesmer, why run Bash/Crushing on the Hammer? And that is a good question. The PP telegraphs the spike if put on even just fractions of a second too early. It also has a 15 second recharge, which is serious borderline for me. I would be hoping to spike a bit faster than that. It also ties up slots on the Mesmer that I would rather use for enchantment removal or Utility.

Divineshadows · May 24, 2006, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

Yes, but why two eviscerates are run is for redundancy. Teams are willing to take the slight hit in damage (~20 points at most) for another shot at the deep wound. (The critical for an eviscerate is roughly 112 and a +42 hammer attack is 130.)

In a multi-warrior spike you have to plan for their flashbot sitting on your guys when he sees your warriors heading toward a monk or something. Or being kited. This is why adrenal spikes frequently start off with Bull's Strike, Shock, or a hammer KD. There's no chance for the target to run away when he's on his butt.

Sure, in a multi-warrior spike the axe guy can start off with shock and the hammer guy uses forceful+fierce, but you can achieve much of the same dps with a Backbreaker for the knockdown.

Exactly. The discussion here has focused around the differences between theory and reality. In theory, you would like to have only one copy of deep wound in order to maximize damage output using other skills. In reality, no competent team is going to allow your team to have your way with them and execute your plan exactly as you had drawn up. The reason that top teams with multiple warriors have multiple copies of deep wound is much the same reason that they do not load all of their condition and hex removal onto a single character because it would make the build inflexible and therefore easier for the opposition to counter and much more difficult for your team to adapt to their counter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

I would personally swap Hammer Bash for Heavy Blow which does extra damage as well as knockdown, however that requires weakness and hammer bash can be used on ANY foe, which definatly one of its strengths.

Or there is the shock - crushing - Forceful - Feirce someone suggested.

It is a fact that smart teams and players have all the skills in the game memorized and know exactly what they do upon their sight. When playing a */Mo (such as an E/Mo) character with draw conditions, if I see a player using Heavy Blow (Devastating -> Crushing -> Heavy) then I use draw conditions on their target before the Heavy Blow lands. Oftentimes, I also pull the deep wound away so not only did I prevent a knockdown in such case I added ~100 of the target's health back. Heavy Blow is a skill akin to a succubus -- pleasing on the surface but when examined more closely hideous underneath.

Fierce blow suffers from much the same problem that Heavy blow, but at least it has the redeeming factor of not being utter garbage when the weakness is removed/moved. Still, I wonder if the potential extra 5 damage (could end up with 16 less damage instead) and the one less adrenal cost justifies running Forceful->Fierce over Forceful->Mighty.

JR · May 24, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Still, I wonder if the potential extra 5 damage (could end up with 16 less damage instead) and the one less adrenal cost justifies running Forceful->Fierce over Forceful->Mighty.

I did wonder myself. The fact that Fierce is one less adrenaline than Mighty swung it for me.

Greedy Gus · May 24, 2006, 10:03 PM // 22:03

When I have 2 warriors in a build, they both have deep wound skills. This is to make sure at least one hits, and also allows them to properly take down targets on their own. When I have 3 warrior builds, that's when I feel that I can ease up on the deep wound, because 3 is a crowd if you are converging on a target at all. That's when I really like the forceful/fierce/irresistable hammer guy, though I still throw shock on him for KD.

I don't know if this has been resolved yet, because I couldn't stand to read this last page. But the entire argument of AhuraMazda about multiple warrior damage was ridiculous. Why was it ever important to compare 2 eviscerate guys to 2 forceful guys? You even wrote out the damage yourself, it was plain to see that the best option was clearly one axe and one hammer. No reason to compare "multiple hammers" to "multiple axes" when you can mix and match.

For the record, it takes almost the exact same time for a hammer war to build up forceful/fierce as it does for an axe war to build up evis/exe. Though hammer does have the best auto-attacking DPS, plus irresistable blow spam.

Ensign · May 25, 2006, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Exactly. The discussion here has focused around the differences between theory and reality. In theory, you would like to have only one copy of deep wound in order to maximize damage output using other skills. In reality, no competent team is going to allow your team to have your way with them and execute your plan exactly as you had drawn up.

When people first started running warriors to pressure other teams effectively it was common practice to only have one warrior who could apply a Deep Wound. Good teams recognized which warrior carried the Deep Wound and made sure to put extra emphesis on that warrior - make sure his target was always protted, that he got all the shutdown, etc. Effectively, the warrior with the Deep Wound was a threat to kill you, while the other one was not, he was just an assist. The obvious step was to put Deep Wound on every warrior, as that would make each one of them a threat to kill.

Warrior hate was a lot more primitive back then than it is now. If you were foolish enough to bring multiple warriors and only one Deep Wound now, a good team would recognize which warrior had it quickly and make sure he never got the adrenaline to use it. The only reason you might get away with it, is because you're an unknown team and your opponent would have to recognize on the fly that you couldn't Deep Wound. It's just kinda assumed that all the warriors have Deep Wound now because they're so awful on their own without it.

Peace,
-CxE

Byron · May 25, 2006, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhruaMazda

These numbers make no sense whatsoever. Either you are hitting AL 100 test dummy, or you did not put points into weapon mastery

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I'll be very generous to you

I know the damage values. I have some experience running a warrior. Your veiled insults are getting tiresome, though.

But, it was advantageous because you've just highlighted another strength of deep wound: no penalty vs. high armor targets.

Quote:

Multiple warriors running hammers start to out spike multiple axe warriors, because EVIC BECOMES GIMPED

I would hope hammer would outdamage axe because hammer deals more damage. Deep wound aside, eviscerate lands for a big damage bonus. Your warriors won't always be together or spiking, so running a build based solely on a spike is making your most powerful weapon most inflexible. I'm sure you know that flexibility is key in GvG.

I still don't see how redundant deep wounds can be bad.

Quote:

The more warriors you have, the less powerful the axe spike combo becomes.

I suppose in philosophical theory, yes. Otherwise, no...

I don't at all understand your "more damage means less damage" argument. Eviscerate will still hit for an average of "80 damage without any strength," even if the deep wound is already there. I'm not arguing for axe over hammer, because to be honest, I prefer hammer. I'm arguing for an effective hammer warrior who utilizes the two most powerful tool in a warrior's arsenal: KD and deep wound.

It seems to me that you think that all warriors do is hit the exact same carefully selected target, kill it, and nothing more. In truth, this is only one of the strengths of a multi-warrior build. No pressure technique, IMHO, is quite as effective as raw damage. When you ignore deep wound, you are handicapping that warrior for 95% of the time, ie: when not spiking. Deep wound is a most effective pressure technique, requiring not only a heal, but also a condition removal. You're looking at a minimum 7 healing energy burned on the deep wound attack alone (noting that the enemy team isn't likely carrying Restore condition. Deep wound might be easily countered by a highly spec-ed DF blessed light monk running mend condition for only 5 energy - that's an afterthought, though). And, as you have said, deep wound sets off healing alarms, greatly encouraging over-healing and energy inefficiency. That's the idea of pressure, and it can't be done with a raw damage attack, which is also (thanks to RoF) easier to protect against.

Quote:

You dont pour energy or adrenaline onto a protected target.

Then you'll find a big lack of targets. The idea of a prot is to come before damage and prevent it, and if you have two warriors who do nothing but spike, you can count on more than a few prots coming down on your target likely before, and certainly during, your spike.

Quote:

Deep wound is useful, and in some situtations its supreme, and other situations it has its drawbacks

Redundant deep wounds is never a bad thing, even in a warrior-based spike build. It should go without saying that all 3 deep wound attacks(gash, crushing blow, Eviscerate) have substantial damage bonuses, which is almost reason enough to pack them into a spike.

Quote:

There is a skill called rush that is a HIGHLY effective kite deterrant.

Assuming your target is backpedaling a straight line in an empty field. Rush helps, but by no means deters. With all your self-exhalted "experience," you should understand that better than any of us. I'll grant you the benefit of the doubt, though, since it may be a semantic misunderstanding.

Quote:

Heavy blow - crushing blow being a combination springing to my immediate attention.

So you are conceding to the effectiveness of KD and deep wound?

Quote:

So if you use mutliple warriors on a single target, Eviscerate is going to be a much less damaging skill then Forceful Blow

Granted. If that's the purpose of your whole argument, it still doesn't justify bringing a hammer without deep wound or KD. Eviscerate isn't the point here, deep wound is the point. It's not axe vs. hammer, but gimped hammer vs. hammer.

If what you want is highest spike damage with only one deep wound, final thrust is your best friend. You get guaranteed damage of 100-150 vs 60 AL. On an already deep wound target, assuming your first hits already took the target below half health, nothing is more effective. Your forceful->fierce is reliant on weakness and critical hits, final thrust is not. (+84 damage ftw)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

The discussion here has focused around the differences between theory and reality. In theory, you would like to have only one copy of deep wound in order to maximize damage output using other skills. In reality, no competent team is going to allow your team to have your way with them and execute your plan exactly as you had drawn up.

QFT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If you were foolish enough to bring multiple warriors and only one Deep Wound now, a good team would recognize which warrior had it quickly and make sure he never got the adrenaline to use it.

QFT.

Symbol · May 25, 2006, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Deep wound is a most effective pressure technique, requiring not only a heal, but also a condition removal. You're looking at a minimum 7 healing energy burned on the deep wound attack alone (noting that the enemy team isn't likely carrying Restore condition.

Deep wound isn't pressure, it's spike If you remove it the damage disappears , and you get a potentially big heal along with it. I don't see how using a mend condition/mend ailment for 7E as any worse than using a RoF for 7E.

I mean, there's some merit to the argument that it's "psychological" pressure in the sense that it forces the opponent to react, but the DW isn't the cause of that, it's the spike threat as a whole.

AhuraMazda · May 25, 2006, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Redundant deep wounds are bad when their presence lowers the overall damage done in a spike compared to a spike lacking a deep wound.

This is where they are bad, this is where the deep wound dependant damage spike of eviscerate is a 'not the best application' of deep wound.

Byron you are flaying a dead horse. Add deep wound to the hammer spike and it suddenly becomes VASTLY MORE POWERFUL than axe.

The problem is getting it on without giving the enemy more time to anticipate the spike.

Damage gets you kills in a spike, deep wound is a high source of damage, and so are other sources.

What is not to understand that the awsome power of the axe attack is deep wound, and the awsome power of the hammer attack is just attack power?

Being able to utilise a deep wound in this hammer spike is going to make you guys running Eviscerate look like children. Not to mention the reworking of many many builds to take advantage of this potentially superior damage situation.

And if you want to get all 'insulting each others GW knowledge' im sure Anet are loving this particular discussion as it shows with Factions they have brought out potential and possible alternatives to develop much stronger warrior frontline builds than last years flavour of the year. Possibly, as always its going to require hardcore development, and the nature of GW is to copy the currently viewed best/easiest to run, for many if not most.

As for final thrust, well yeah. Your going to have to use atleast THREE being generous sword attacks to get the target to under 50% health, then use final thrust.

Maybe multiple swords might only require one high damage attack each, which could possibly put sword top of the killing power list, but then deep wound becomes redundant because of the speed of the spike, and the swords requirement for bleeding.

And then their is the recycle time for final thrust, 10 adrenaline and lose all adrenaline, as well as the swords markedly low damage output outside of adrenaline skills.

IF, and this is the point, you can do more damage with hammers in a spike than with the same number of axes, then the hammers DoT under frenzy, and recharge of all adrenaline skills makes it a far better weapon to use.

If under split you are able to utilise the hammers knockdowns and the deep wound it can use, then there are no arguements whatsoever.

The only possible arguement in favour of AXE IMO would be in a spike where hits are failing to land, in which case the chances are that there is nothing you can do to spike the target anyway, its been spotted and countered.

It seems you are fixated with the 100+ damage bonus that Evisc has/can have ontop of an axe crit.

It is only that powerful in certain situations, not including not landing the attack, and multiple are not that powerful in a spike, and you just said the whole point of the deep wound was for spike damage.

The hammer is not gimped, it can just outdo multiple axe spikers damage output without using deep wound, and cant out damage a single eviscerate.

ghostof · May 25, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Chill on the attacking posters. It's really getting annoying. We all agree hammers are nice and all of us run axe, hammer for the most part in gvg.

As the person who suggested shock/crushing might I suggest you add heal sig into your build and have zero air?

Heal Signet at 122 min. should always be in your build. Since you cannot have an off-hand with + to health, -dmg, +energy your giving up alot of versitility to do more damage. You need to have healing with hammer in your build for gvg.

Use glads/knights boots/stoneskin gloves/hex reduction helm.

You now have a nice gvg hammer warrior build using your 2 fast adrenline charging skills. Energy management is critical for you.

I still agree with devastating < Fierce combo as the more effective hammer spike build since the kd is built in with the weakness allowing you not to take shock and sub out another skill that isn't so energy intensive.

JR · May 25, 2006, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Less flaming tbh.

holden · May 25, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

Damage gets you kills in a spike, deep wound is a high source of damage, and so are other sources.

What is not to understand that the awsome power of the axe attack is deep wound, and the awsome power of the hammer attack is just attack power?

imo, deep wound is a killer. everything else is just damage.

AhuraMazda · May 25, 2006, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

imo, deep wound is a killer. everything else is just damage.

Well if you dont consider the healing reduction, then the killer in deep wound is the damage it does....

And look, you can apply one deep wound at a time, so with simply using deep wound you are not going to kill anything, except a damaged target.

It is a source of damage. There is a high damage skill that incorporates a deep wound. That is the core behind the discussion of the last few pages.

You cant really seperate deep wound from pure non conditional damage, because ultimatly you are discussing damage, if you are discussing killing before healing.

The points are:

Are warrior attacks incorporating a deep wound the best way to rapidly apply damage to a target so that it dies before it can be healed?

Are the merits of those weapons outside of a spike low enough to make the spike damage not balance out the overall team balance and strategy enough to merit their inclusion?

Can other skills or weapons apply more damage, especially in the situations you find yourself in GvG, and if so, how can a deep wound be incorporated into these skill combinations to make the overall effect even greater?

Points such as kiting can be addressed the same way outside of weapon attacks for all weapon types.

There are distinct differences between the application of conditions between weapons, and also considerations such as interrupt and indeed/obviously knockdown.

The points raised by others have been:

Ways to 'immobilise' or otherwise snare a target.
Ways to apply high damage to the target.
Considerations in splitting.

I raise the points of:

Out of spike pressure, DoT.
Multiple warrior damage applied to a target before it can be healed.

In my opinion, a warrior spike that is spotted, and the target receives monk/defensive attention, is ultimatly a warrior spike that is going to fail.

Unless the defence of the opposition is suffering from extreme energy usage pressure, and is unable to succesfully defend the target.

With this, what I believe to be a general and fair statement, in mind you are looking at the following roles for your warrior.

1. Heavy constant pressure, demanding switching of targets, and application of strong and consistant damage.

2. High damage rapid spiking.

It is my view, that in teams, a hammer warrior can perform both these roles to a high, if not the highest, level.

The other consideration is team splitting, in which case as pointed out by JR amongst others, the hammer warrior has sufficient interruption and knockdown abilities to ultimatly result in the same outcome as the admittedly higher solo warrior spike damage the deep wound using eviscerate spike of the axe warrior.

Therefore it is my view that the hammer warrior is the superior warrior to take into the GvG situation, if you are using warriors for spike damage, pressure, or in split scenarios.

Now the application of the deep wound is not a greater consideration than all of these points. The application of the deep wound is a high damage condition to take into the consideration of these mentioned points.

As always however, everything mentioned depends on YOUR build, THE ENEMY build, and numerous other factors that can be found in combat.