Curse

DieInBasra · May 23, 2006, 08:11 PM // 20:11

I think it's more of the knocklock/ss/blackout type builds he's refering to. Like the one SNA ran for a bit, it had a really weak really long "spike", but it worked because there was an SS and a blackout being used in conjunction. Maybe a bit of what Te did last championship, though that might be more of a spike with a knockdown.

EDIT: Actually you probably got it right.

AhuraMazda · May 23, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

I fell out of love with Hammer Bash ages ago because the extra knockdown after your chain doesn't actually kill anything, and it does waste a good bit of adrenaline. That doesn't make knockdowns that don't lose all adrenaline any less important.

Knockdowns that dont lose all adrenaline are of the extremelly high adrenaline cost variety, take up an elite slot, and dont do immense and massive damage.

However they do knockdown the target, without losing all adrenaline. (Hey, I still sometimes use Earthshaker, I love that skill)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

This whole mini-discussion started when it came up on whether forceful blow then fierce blow was a better spike then either an axe or a different elite hammer spike. If you had two warriors spiking the same target then knockdown becomes even more important to hold the target in place. Whether that comes from a mid-line gale, or a warrior shock, or an elite hammer knockdown, it does have to come from somewhere or your spike will most likely fail.

First of all your monk has to kite directly away from the warrior or he gets hit a second time.

Second of all you are often going to be running more than one warrior, and IDEALLY, if they are skilled/alert, your warriors do not all rush the target from the same direction (especially if you have been frenzy pressuring various non-spike targets and switching immediatly you are not doing maximum damage). In a perfect scenario you use a triangular body block, but yeah pulling that off for a spike is, 'unlikely'.

Third of all a pack of warriors chasing a target and using gale as a snare is an obvious alert, its so obvious and well known that these tactics now have to be hidden, or used as a diversion. (This is where my 'non-shall-pass' is useful if the target tries to run after the first spike strikes have landed)

Knockdown, imo, is best for using against over extended targets of any variety, or when split, but in a large number melee it is wasteful, imo, and a glaring alert of impending spike.

A much better snare is good communication, excellant timing, good positioning, and brutality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

The idea of a spike is to kill someone before they can fully react.

Absolutely, and if you read my previous posts I spent a great deal of time pointing out how Eviscerate ONLY deals more damage when one warrior is hitting the target.

If you are using two or more warriors then an AXE spike does LESS damage than a Forceful - Feirce Spike, taking into consideration the single deep wound, and its effect on ANOTHER eviscerate.

If you take into consideration the fact that deep wound does not stack, then a second Eviscerate does 100 less damage than the first.

Do the math. (These are rough numbers based on my experiances using both, feel free to correct me and throw in the technical max damage numbers.)

Eviscerate number 1. 108+100 (ballpark figures) 208 damage
Eviscerate number 2. 108
Executioners x2 216

= 532 Damage

Forceful 134
Feirce 134
Forceful 134
Feirce 134

= 536 damage.

So basiclly the difference between two hammer warrior and two axe warrior spiking a target is going to MINIMAL to the extreme degree. (If you use THREE, Hammer starts to show a definate superiority)

Then consider all the other factors, and you have the basis for my entire arguement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

Deep wound is used to make it easier to kill someone in a spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

The idea of a spike is to kill someone before they can fully react.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

Which is why I will use deep wound, since I sure as hell know they will use it to make me easier to kill.

And all the things I have outlined is why I will use forceful and feirce blow in my pressure hammer build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Spike has more room for utility because you do not need as much of an offense to spike, as obviously the whole point of it is to bypass most of the healing/prot. For example you may want two Eles with Lightning Orb, a Shatter Enchantment, and an Axe Warrior and a Hammer Warrior. That is two whole characters and three further skill slots dedicated to your offense, the rest can be further offense or pure utility and damage mitigation.

Absolutely, you bring up rock solid points.

I just wanted to add that the most 'interesting' and definatly amusing counter to this kind of rapid piling of high damage I saw recently was a well timed cry of frustration.

It didnt ultimatly save their team from our spike build we were running, but it was certainly funny, if frustrating, to see a hot mesmer using a simple trick.

Given the chance, and by no means are my self and my guild in a position to 'win them all', I would prefer to go for the long battle against a teams entire defensive energy management and timing, but maybe thats just my lack of gvg experiance.

And tbh it just increases the respect you have for guilds who are able to run builds that can cope with almost everything out there. Thats some hardcore development.

JR · May 23, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

I just wanted to add that the most 'interesting' and definatly amusing counter to this kind of rapid piling of high damage I saw recently was a well timed cry of frustration.

Just a small side note:

If your casters are silly enough to bunch up on a spike, against a team with Cry, then you have bigger things to worry about.

AhuraMazda · May 24, 2006, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Just a small side note:

If your casters are silly enough to bunch up on a spike, against a team with Cry, then you have bigger things to worry about.

If your team has the ability to rapidly hit multiple skills as a group, then a single mesmer has the ability to reaction-hit a skill if he knows what to expect.

I didnt said they won, I said it was an amusing way to cause a single spike to fail.

Welcome to the forums, where blanket statements showing superiority are supposed to impressive.

Weak mate.

GG, untill then.

Byron · May 24, 2006, 07:30 AM // 07:30

I'm glad to see this thread coming alive...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

Also in GvG spiking counting on the axe to deep wound the spike is kinda given.

While axe no doubt has the most effective deep wound hit, there isn't always room in a build to accomodate an axe, simply because eviscerate is so effective from an axe that it makes no sense to run an axe warrior without it. This is why I like axe least of the weapons: everything leads to the eviscerate combo. Hammers have the beautiful adrenaline based KD attacks as well as irresistible blow for utility. Swords can be run effectively with no elite attack skill. Axes, though, seem like they need eviscerate.

Quote:

What do you think?

I think the instant energy-based combos should be left to the able assassins. Your skill set really limits your pressure ability and general flexibility, IMHO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

No the Axe combo does not do ALOT more damage in a smaller frame of time, thats the point

Quote:

You have said nothing more than "Axe does more damage"

I'll be very generous to you.

Eviscerate = 50 damage
+ deep wound = 80 damage
+ Executioner's =50 damage

= 180 damage in 2.5 seconds

Forceful blow = 100 damage
+ weakness = 0 damage
+ Fierce blow = 100 damage

= 200 damage in 3.5 seconds

My Axe = 180/2.5 = 72 dps
Your Hammer = 200/3.5 = 57.15 dps

Quote:

The power of the hammer has never been its knockdowns ALONE, although you may think this

I think the power of warriors is reliable damage, and their weapon dictates the specialty. Each weapon deals damage, that should be obvious. Actually, it is sword that dishes out the most raw DPS from attacks.

Quote:

when it comes down to the actual *furious seconds* of the spike, that deep wound is going to be a glaring sign for immediate treatment.

I don't think monks are looking for deep wound alarms when healing under stress. You said yourself that it comes down to the "furious" seconds of a spike. What better to do in those seconds than completely remove 20% of your target's health?

Quote:

You cant spam RoF fast enough to counter each swing of a frenzy hammer warrior, and even if you do, your not the target thats going to spiked are you?

If not for the recharge on RoF, I certainly could. There are other prots besides RoF, for example: kiting.

Quote:

each swing of my hammer is going to remove about 1/3rd of your HP, im under frenzy

If that's what you think, there is no reason to continue trying to convince you otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

If I had more then one warrior, even up to 4 warriors in the same build, each and every one of them would have deep wound.

QFT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

Welcome to the forums, where blanket statements showing superiority are supposed to impressive.

Such statements don't seem to be working. We're trying to give advice, improve the PvP community, and you have only insulted us with spiteful retorts and selfishness. Ahura - realize that your warrior is sub-par, then make it better. I promise that you won't see any guild on the good side of rank 500 running a hammer warrior without KD or crushing blow.

Seef II · May 24, 2006, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Basically, unless we're whacking away at static wooden barrels, the straight-number DPS isn't what we're looking at. In PvP, a warrior's going to be hexed, kited, and blinded a good portion of the time, so every hit counts.
Redundancy on the deep wound is a given. SaintGreg hit the nail on an extreme example (4-war build) but really, the Deep Wound is very important to an adrenal spike. Forceful + Fierce gives weakness instead, which is kind of, well, weak.

Byron, under Frenzy, which you should be when spiking, the numbers are actually pretty comparable:

Worst Case/Bad Luck Axe Guy
Eviscerate: 57 damage + 100 deep wound
Executioner's: 57 damage
in 1.9 seconds
= 112.6 DPS
I assume 100 on the deep wound since you usually run lots of health in PvP (500+ on squishies at least, and deep wound caps at 100) and we're attacking a target with no DP.

Best Case AhuraMazda Chain
Forceful: 130 damage + weakness
Fierce: 130 damage
in 2.3 seconds
= 113.0 DPS

A worst-case axe versus the best-case Forceful-Fierce combo runs the same. Let us consider a generic Backbreaker -> Crushing combo (rough averages) under Frenzy:

Backbreaker KD chain
Backbreaker: 80 damage + 4 s KD
Crushing: 80 damage + 100 DW
in 2.3 seconds
=113.0 DPS
You get the same DPS (assuming you hit in the middle of your range) and the very significant utility of the Backbreaker knockdown.

Granted, the backbreaker guy takes twice as much adrenaline to charge, but the knockdown has so much utility that Backbreaker is worth all 10 strikes of adrenaline you have to put into it. Running Devastating Hammer instead of Backbreaker is an option that lowers dps somewhat, but allows more frequent knockdowns. Bunny thumpers should run Backbreaker or Hammer Bash though, but that's another discussion.
[edit] fixing numbers.

Byron · May 24, 2006, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

Best Case AhuraMazda Chain

That's pretty unfair, isn't it? I think it has to be assumed both get crits (or both do not get crtis) or the argument is... pointless. You pointed this out (thank you), but I'd like to further clarify the weakness of that hammer chain.

As for your backbreaker argument, I agree wholeheartedly. 4s of KD is downright deadly, despite the adren costs.

That said, I do not have a love affair with axe. But the effectiveness should not be ignored.

JR · May 24, 2006, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

If your team has the ability to rapidly hit multiple skills as a group, then a single mesmer has the ability to reaction-hit a skill if he knows what to expect.

I didnt said they won, I said it was an amusing way to cause a single spike to fail.

Welcome to the forums, where blanket statements showing superiority are supposed to impressive.

Weak mate.

GG, untill then.

How was that in any way some incorrect blanket statement?

Is it not idiotic to have your casters stood together so that half of your spike can be ruined with Cry? Is it just too much to expect to have the spread out a touch to not put the other casters in range?

Seef II · May 24, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

That's pretty unfair, isn't it? I think it has to be assumed both get crits (or both do not get crtis) or the argument is... pointless. You pointed this out (thank you), but I'd like to further clarify the weakness of that hammer chain.

I don't get what you're saying. 130 damage is roughly the critical value of a +42 damage hammer attack.

[edit] nevermind, I get it. But those numbers are a very rough reference as how damn good the deep wound is. Big green numbers aren't everything. FYI, I just basically revised your numbers (harsh on the axe, generous to AhuraMazda) to fit ingame a little better.

AhuraMazda · May 24, 2006, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Eviscerate = 50 damage
+ deep wound = 80 damage
+ Executioner's =50 damage

= 180 damage in 2.5 seconds

Forceful blow = 100 damage
+ weakness = 0 damage
+ Fierce blow = 100 damage

= 200 damage in 3.5 seconds

These numbers make no sense whatsoever. Either you are hitting AL 100 test dummy, or you did not put points into weapon mastery.

The AVERAGE for Executioners on AL 60 without any strength is 80 damage.

All you are doing is simply arguing a point I conceded, a point which cant be argued, Eviscerate does more damage.

Now, the point you are NOT getting is that in a multi warrior spike, the deep wound of Evisc is not enoug, and becomes its own worst enemy, as it dramaticlly reduces the spike damage of all other axes, which is their only strength in GvG.

You can keep saying "deep wound is a must, take it constantly in GvG", but that is because you have failed to understand that it is NO LONGER the source of the highest spike damage in specific (none solo) warrior spike situations.

Untill you stop arguing (with ridiculous inexperianced values) point I have long since AGREED with, and start devoting your attentions to the merits of AXE using Evisc in Mutliple warrior spikes, this entire discussion is going nowhere.

The deep wound gives the axe a massive boost in damage, one time only.
The overall effect is to significantly lower the spike damage of all successive axe spike combos being applied to the target at the same time.

My example was based off a two warrior spike, a common frontline combination.

Now go into this much detail on the point of the deep wound.

I am not denying that the deep wound on a single eviscerate means an evisc execut combo out damages forceful and feirce. So stop arguing that point. I conceded it about 3 pages ago.

Where you are showing your forum warrior habits and complete lack of understanding of both a warrior and of GvG in general, is the fact you are not studying the pre and post spike effects of a multiple hammer or multiple axe team, and nor are you factoring multiple warriors on the same targate.

Which simply means, stop repeating base numbers over and over again, I did it once and to prove your already, and start figuring out what that means in a fight.

Multiple warriors running hammers start to out spike multiple axe warriors, because EVIC BECOMES GIMPED.

Wakey wakey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

Stuff about deep wound and weakness

You have ALREADY CLAIMED that the ONLY reason for the presence of deep wound in the spike is the increased damage.

The presence of weakness is also to allow simple more damage, in the form of a weakness dependant high damage hit.

Now yes, I can understand that when someone with no experiance, or real understanding of the game, simply studies the merits of deep wound and weakness, they find one awsomely powerful, and another amusingly weak.

But there is actually a vast amount more to consider beyond simple comparisons of one individual skill, and one individual condition.

Untill you grasp this point you will be technically right on solo numbers and effects, which I concede, and in practice horribly horribly wrong.

JR · May 24, 2006, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

Where you are showing your forum warrior habits and complete lack of understanding of both a warrior and of GvG in general

Don't make me laugh.

Deep Wound is the single most powerfull condition in the game, having two sources of it in a spike is nothing but a good thing. They get a Guardian thrown on them and one of the Eviscerates misses? No big deal, second will probably hit. Not to mention it's not that strange for Warriors to be split onto different targets.

Look at these Hammer and Axe builds in the play-offs. Count how many of those Hammer Warriors are not using crushing. Please don't bring in 'GvG understanding' when the point you are making clearly goes against standard GvG practice. And for a good reason.

AhuraMazda · May 24, 2006, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

They get a Guardian thrown on them and one of the Eviscerates misses? No big deal, second will probably hit.

Now THAT goes against standard GvG practice. You dont pour energy or adrenaline onto a protected target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Deep Wound is the single most powerfull condition in the game, having two sources of it in a spike is nothing but a good thing.

Unless you can do more damage without it. Go do the math. The more warriors you have, the less powerful the axe spike combo becomes. Its such a simple considerations, its almost baffling you will constantly and repeatedly totally ignore it in favour of joining -the gang- to argue in favour of eviscerate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Look at these Hammer and Axe builds in the play-offs. Count how many of those Hammer Warriors are not using crushing.

Crushing is an energy based deep wound applied at the very END of an adrenaline spike. Or if it is used after a knockdown elite, its not used in a high damage spike. (If you read back a few posts, I commented on the merits of crushing blow applied to a target that survived your damage spike in a high pressure build.)

Way to defeat your own point

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Deep Wound is the single most powerfull condition in the game, having it in a spike is nothing but a good thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Please don't bring in 'GvG understanding' when the point you are making clearly goes against standard GvG practice. And for a good reason.

Well first of all Forceful and Feirce are skills from the new expansion I have beentrying out.

Long standing commonly used practices are often called FotM, and are copied directly from those who innovate them, and become the average that has to be surpassed.

You may personally think that the AXE was a favourite because of its high spike damage, I think it was more likely because of its ability to split.

However now it would appear that there is a distinct 'map' of warrior metagame considerations, where the hammer and the axe switch positions of supremacy, depending on those considerations.

Now this is not FotM thinking, so its not surprise to see an entire forum thread, and moderator, not be too keen to accept this kind of view.

However it is meaningless, sit down and work out all the aspects and considerations for yourself, and then you will have a much broader view of Warriors in GvG than shock and Eviscerate and following calls.

If there was a graph of two hit spike damage between axe and hammer on one axis, and number of warriors on the other axis, the axe will start off doing more damage than the hammer, and the lines will eventually cross with the hammer coming out ontop with larger numbers of warriors.

This simply the way it is. This is what I have been saying for many pages now, and is something everyone responding is refusing to acknowledge.

Now either those people are forum warriors refusing to lose a point by not engaging it, or those guys do not know this for themselves.

JR · May 24, 2006, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

Now THAT goes against standard GvG practice. You dont pour energy or adrenaline onto a protected target.

Whatever, you are nit-picking. Maybe they are camped in a Ward vs. Melee, maybe you are trying to drop someone with Distortion, maybe one of the warriors gets blinded... It's beside the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

Unless you can do more damage without it. Go do the math. The more warriors you have, the less powerful the axe spike combo becomes. Its such a simple considerations, its almost baffling you will constantly and repeatedly totally ignore it in favour of joining -the gang- to argue in favour of eviscerate.

I am not joining any gang, and neither am I arguing in favor of Eviscerate. Run hammer warriors all you want, I am merely arguing about the usefullness of Deep Wound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

Crushing is an energy based deep wound applied at the very END of an adrenaline spike.

Er, no? Most of the time a Hammer spike will be KD -> Crushing -> KD -> Mighty/Irresistible, or possibly KD -> Crushing -> Mighty/Irresistible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

Way to defeat your own point

Er, how?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

Long standing commonly used practices are often called FotM, and are copied directly from those who innovate them, and become the average that has to be surpassed.

A good way to tell that you are being original is to run something sub-par. Certain skills and combinations simply work very well and will be seen a lot, that is just the way it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

You may personally think that the AXE was a favourite because of its high spike damage, I think it was more likely because of its ability to split.

I honestly prefer Hammer in a split, for the same reason hammer is more powerfull in TA; with only one monk, you can shut them down and kill them at the same time with a well executed KD chain. They can kite an Axe warrior till the cows come home.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

However now it would appear that there is a distinct 'map' of warrior metagame considerations, where the hammer and the axe switch positions of supremacy, depending on those considerations.

Not really. They way I see it is pretty simple; If you feel you need a good solid snare when you go to adren spike a target, run a Hammer Warrior. If you are likely to split, run a Hammer Warrior. You just simply like Hammer Warriors? Fine. Just don't be a tool and skip out on Crushing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

its not surprise to see an entire forum thread, and moderator, not be too keen to accept this kind of view.

Maybe there is a hint buried somewhere in there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

However it is meaningless, sit down and work out all the aspects and considerations for yourself, and then you will have a much broader view of Warriors in GvG than shock and Eviscerate and following calls.

Please don't try to lecture me on GvG.

AhuraMazda · May 24, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Whatever, you are nit-picking

No you are nit picking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I am not joining any gang, and neither am I arguing in favor of Eviscerate. Run hammer warriors all you want, I am merely arguing about the usefullness of Deep Wound.

Multiple warriors running Forceful and Feirce will out damage same number of warriors running Eviscerate and Executioners, should all hits from all warriors land.

Deep wound is useful, and in some situtations its supreme, and other situations it has its drawbacks, such as being a source of non stacking damage for a skill chain that relies upon the damage of a deep wound for its power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Er, no? Most of the time a Hammer spike will be KD -> Crushing -> KD -> Mighty/Irresistible, or possibly KD -> Crushing -> Mighty/Irresistible.

Dude thats high adrenaline knockdown - deep wound only - all adren lost knockdown - decent damage.

Or you could go, like I prefer, low adrenaline massive damage - low adrenaline massive damage - then possibly low adrenaline knockdown + all adren lost and decent damage - deep wound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

A good way to tell that you are being original is to run something sub-par. Certain skills and combinations simply work very well and will be seen a lot, that is just the way it is.

If it is supbar simply because it doesnt use deep wound, then you are listening and watching others too much, and not playing the game enough. TBH.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I honestly prefer Hammer in a split, for the same reason hammer is more powerfull in TA; with only one monk, you can shut them down and kill them at the same time with a well executed KD chain. They can kite an Axe warrior till the cows come home.

There is a skill called rush that is a HIGHLY effective kite deterrant. Your knockdown chain is both easilly broken and takes a long long time to recharge. It is weak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Not really. They way I see it is pretty simple; If you feel you need a good solid snare when you go to adren spike a target, run a Hammer Warrior. If you are likely to split, run a Hammer Warrior. You just simply like Hammer Warriors? Fine. Just don't be a tool and skip out on Crushing.

Using a vast amount of adrenaline on a snare when you are also a damage dealer is weak. Using the hammer as a warrior interrupt build is, imo, the mark of someone who doesnt know any other way to make a hammer warrior effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Please don't try to lecture me on GvG.

You are using deep wound as a source of damage in a build that takes a long time to recharge, when I am pointing out a hammer build that does comparitive damage solo without deep wound, and more damage in groups without deep wound, that recharges faster, and all you do is deny the point, and attempt to come off all superior?

I see this often in Guild Wars dude.

Symbol · May 24, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Multiple warriors running Forceful and Feirce will out damage same number of warriors running Eviscerate and Executioners, should all hits from all warriors land.

If you're just going for damage without DW, hammer is only second choice. Sword gets you more +damage, that comes out faster (faster attack speed), you can do it more often (dragon slash), and is just higher dps in general. Also, you don't have to give up a shield.

Quote:

There is a skill called rush that is a HIGHLY effective kite deterrant. Your knockdown chain is both easilly broken and takes a long long time to recharge. It is weak.

Rush doesn't "deter" kiting in any way shape or form. It just makes it less effective. It's nowhere nearly as good as a KD combo.

Xasew · May 24, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

However it is meaningless, sit down and work out all the aspects and considerations for yourself, and then you will have a much broader view of Warriors in GvG than shock and Eviscerate and following calls.

You seriously have no idea who you are talking to, do you? You are wrong and you just have to understand it. The sooner you do, the better it is for all of us. DW is the best condition in the game and Crushing Blow owns.

LightningHell · May 24, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

I really don't know what you're talking about. Namely:

If it is supbar simply because it doesnt use deep wound, then you are listening and watching others too much, and not playing the game enough. TBH.

Using a vast amount of adrenaline on a snare when you are also a damage dealer is weak. Using the hammer as a warrior interrupt build is, imo, the mark of someone who doesnt know any other way to make a hammer warrior effective.

Is he trying to use the Hammer to interrupt? I don't think so.

AND I still don't get his argument about how Deep Wound isn't good.

Xasew · May 24, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

Using a vast amount of adrenaline on a snare when you are also a damage dealer is weak. Using the hammer as a warrior interrupt build is, imo, the mark of someone who doesnt know any other way to make a hammer warrior effective.

Forceful+Fierce is a nice idea and all, but won't work very well. It can't spike properly, because it doesn't effectively snare the target and without the KD there's no DW either. If you think you can kill just by hitting stuff until it dies because their Monks run out of energy, you're going to be a bit dissapointed. I'd run Devastating+Crushing+Fierce over Forceful+Fierce any day, because with just 1 more adrenaline I get a KD, a DW but still a nice amount of damage.

AhuraMazda · May 24, 2006, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

If there was a graph of two hit spike damage between axe and hammer on one axis, and number of warriors on the other axis, the axe will start off doing more damage than the hammer, and the lines will eventually cross with the hammer coming out ontop with larger numbers of warriors.

This simply the way it is. This is what I have been saying for many pages now, and is something everyone responding is refusing to acknowledge.

Now either those people are forum warriors refusing to lose a point by not engaging it, or those guys do not know this for themselves.

There is six skill slots left. If you dont like the kiting avoidal, or the lack of deep wounds, feel free to add them. Heavy blow - crushing blow being a combination springing to my immediate attention.

Either refute the point I have been making consistantly for the last three pages, or dont post a respone to what I say.

The rest of the responces are fluff generated by refusal to address that point I said and quoted.

JR · May 24, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

If it is supbar simply because it doesnt use deep wound, then you are listening and watching others too much, and not playing the game enough. TBH.

No, it is not an opinion based on other opinions and hear-say. It is an opinion based on the experience of playing regular high-level GvG for months. Largely as a Monk I might add, dealing with damage dealt by warriors to myself and others. There really truly is no scarier condition than Deep Wound, which not only does 20% of your health bar worth of damage, but also cuts down your max health therefore reducing the heals you CAN get untill it is removed.

As I said before; two sources of this condition in your spike is simply not a bad thing. Hell a decent guild was running two Warriors with the ability to Deep Wound, and a PP/SD mesmer recently.

It really is as simple as that. Stop trying to argue a fairly stupid point. You DO have a point, but it really just doesn't stand up when pushed.