Curse

JR · May 22, 2006, 01:15 PM // 13:15

You can kill things two ways. Spiking, or pressuring so hard you tap out the opposing monks. An Axe Warrior with Eviscerate has more potential to spike than a Hammer Warrior, and Hammers Warriors are more effective pressure. Look at the Thumper + Death Necro builds in the play offs, and compare them to the other fairly standard adren spike builds.

ghostof · May 22, 2006, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

One huge combined DPS is less for axe than for hammers, reread my post, and point out where what I said is wrong.

You cant spam RoF fast enough to counter each swing of a frenzy hammer warrior, and even if you do, your not the target thats going to spiked are you?

As I explained above (which you simply ignored by saying that an axe does more damage) evisc and executioners does more damage than forceful and feirce. Except if there is more than one warrior, except when you consider the speed of the recharge of the spike.

And I also commented that outside of these skills the axe does not do more damage.

AND I also explained that the whole point behind the warrior is to pressure the enemy then kill, rather than kill to apply pressure.

You have said nothing more than "Axe does more damage"

I have pointed out this is true in one specific case only. In the direct comparison of a high adrenaline deep wound inflicting warrior elite attack against all others. And no where else, especially in battle.

I dont need to spam RoF against a frenzied non kd hammer warrior. Unless you are knocking me down somewhere in your build you never are going to kill/pressure my boon prot with forceful/fierce.

Guardian/Prot plus movement is more then enough to seriously hamper this combo's effectiveness.

Please post your build. So far I got frenzy, forceful, fierce, Rez sig, sprint.

Are you interrupting or knocking down anywhere in this build? distracting blow? Irresitable blow? Bull's Strike? Heavy Blow? Got Heal Sig? I mean your telling me your hammer build is applying constant pressure which all I see is a self admitted weak spike without any deep wound and absolutely nothing to stop a monks casting.

Gotta at least give me something to indicate your build as you said kd was way overrated. What is the rest of the skill bar?

Axes apply pressure generally with frenzy, bull strike, shock. First strike kills are near impossible. The goal is to force the monks to focus on each other. If you are telling me that axes are meant to kill to apply pressure isn't that the overall point? I am forcing you to heal yourselve or die. Isn't that the king of pressure? Your going to slowly apply pressure? I dont understand your argument that axes are inferior at applying pressure. When axes apply pressure we are striking rapidly and often quickly building adrenline while knocking down a moving target and then applying a vicious deep wound damage spike to whatever target is weaker on a called spike. That is constant pressure.

I never in my life not applied pressure with an axe. Your swinging to fast with a non defendable knockdown. Hammers + constant Frenzy = juicy spike target

AhuraMazda · May 22, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Seriously what are you on about?

A frenzy axe warrior is the mosty high pressure warrior ingame and a frenzy hammer warrior is nothing?

Rush - Frenzy - non shall pass - forceful - feirce - heavy blow but its rarely used - endure pain - res

So your going to be dealing with my frenzy hammer easilly while the rest of my team is hassling you, then your going to easilly counter our switch and whole team spike on you? Because I use a hammer?

I dont care what kind of monk you are, each swing of my hammer is going to remove about 1/3rd of your HP, im under frenzy, and if you live, I go crazy on that elementalist next to you. It makes no difference to me.

What does make a difference however is for the past one year I have running Axe in 4v4 due to its high one shot adrenaline spike ability and great condition stacking power, and hammer in Guild Versus Guild because when healing is something you can rely upon, a hammer is what you want in your hands.

If you and your guild struggle with Axe spikes, then I can only wonder how you would deal against high and constant pressure, combined to an equally strong, if not stronger, hammer spike.

When you say you apply pressure with Axe, there is only one build I know of that comes close to being as constant pressure for axe as hammer, and thats using some kind of artifical adrenaline generator such as 'To The Limit' and tactics in 8v8 or GvG is a seldom used line, by me and my guild anyway.

You will be spamming gaurdian and prot spirit as your 'boon prot' so no matter axe nor hammer, once those two are up im not going to be making you panic.

But you need them up facing solo frenzy hammer, or ill break you.

Which ultimatly is the point. Without adrenaline the hammer warrior is going to do you more damage.

Sure the SOLO axe warrior does you more damage in an INDIVIDUAL spike.

The hammer warrior leaves you very little energy to deal with a spike that is only weaker if there is only one warrior.

Which is most dangerous, Mister 'Boon Prot'?

I am sure you have 'pwned' all hammer warriors with your 'boon prot', but unless you bring out numbers, skills, scenarios, you are just making noise.

By the way, pressure is defined as "sees evade, TAB, space, frenzy" I dont need to knock you down, I just need to batter a soft target under frenzy to build up adrenaline, and keep you spending all that precious energy.

Or yeah I could knock you down using gale, but chances are you are already well protected. So it would be a waste. Which is bad. Which is why you lose. Wasting space. Skills. Which is why I change targets as soon as you protect yourself, then spike you as hard and as often as possible.

Its not about me overcoming your healing, its about you screwing up/running out mate. Well when warriors are involved anyway.

As JR said there are simply two ways to win. You either overcome the opposing teams ability to deal with damage. Either with your speed, or with the size, depth and strength of your attack. The spike.

OR. You push them to the edge, force a hard solid constant permenant life or death struggle.
Like the persistance chase hunt style of Ancient Africa. You dont run after your quarry, you persue him, relentlessly, constantly. And once both you and him are exhuasted, and at the point of the collapse, the one with the spear is in his hand becomes the victor.

I am such a fan of the second style, so much skill and perservance, such a FIGHT.

Dude this is my PvP name, look out for me, I hope one day you can tell me whether I impressed you or not, win or lose.

Much of what else you say is badly flawed, spiking high STR multi stance warriors being a certaity, and the lack of sight to switch those Elemetnalist knockdowns into hammer warrior (or even to take them..) but tbh lets stick to the merits of pure axe v pure warrior.

And lets keep it to GvG, becuase ill admit in my experiance in arenas and elsewhere the flexibility and condition stacking of axes makes them stronger than hammers, untill I can find a build for hammer in 4v4 that is better than my axe build that is.

We could always 1v1, which is childish in the eyes of the public, but definatly a fun way to persue our arguements.

SparhawkJC · May 22, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

I believe what ghostof and -JR are trying to say is that your forceful blow+fierce blow combo is complete and utter crap. If you try to take down a boon/prot monk with that you'll end up on your ass and the monk will be laughing at you while walking away under Aegis or Guardian. Read the discription of forceful blow, if you miss you're the one that's knocked down not your target. If you want to add that silly extra damage of yours without deep wound you might as well switch to sword and use silverwing+galrath and save your elite slot. You have 2 knockdowns in your chain, 1 which has a 45 second recharge and the other is dependent on weakness. Also no healing sig makes baby rurik cry. Endure pain? That's like trying to save the Titanic with a band-aid.

Symbol · May 22, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

I don't understand what this argument is about. It's much ado about nothing.

Spike = damage done too fast to heal
Pressure = any other type of damage.

It's easy to calculate pressure. Just calculate dps and be done with it.

Quote:

I believe what ghostof and -JR are trying to say is that your forceful blow+fierce blow combo is complete and utter crap. If you try to take down a boon/prot monk with that you'll end up on your ass and the monk will be laughing at you while walking away under Aegis or Guardian.

The idea isn't to kill the monk, the idea is to keep his energy bottomed out by forcing him to heal. You don't have to do that directly, you can attack a non protected soft target. Though if pure pressure is your goal (aka continual high dps) a dragon slash build is probably better.

In terms of added dps, executioner's is comparable to forceful/fierce, since the higher adrenaline cost is offset by the higher attack speed. The difference is mostly due to the higher base dps, hammers are about 10% higher IIRC. To me that doesn't seem worth the sacrifice of a shield and the spike capability.

AhuraMazda · May 22, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

I believe what ghostof and -JR are trying to say is that your forceful blow+fierce blow combo is complete and utter crap. If you try to take down a boon/prot monk with that you'll end up on your ass and the monk will be laughing at you while walking away under Aegis or Guardian. Read the discription of forceful blow, if you miss you're the one that's knocked down not your target. If you want to add that silly extra damage of yours without deep wound you might as well switch to sword and use silverwing+galrath and save your elite slot. You have 2 knockdowns in your chain, 1 which has a 45 second recharge and the other is dependent on weakness. Also no healing sig makes baby rurik cry. Endure pain? That's like trying to save the Titanic with a band-aid.

What a moronic reply. First of all defence depends on the rest of your team. So bitching about the merits of one or the other is futile.

Second of all, pull off the spike and the monk doesnt evoid my second hit, mess it up and he does, in which case being on my ass or not is meaningless, and its back to beating the hell out of someone else.

Aegis and Guardian are to be forced to use under hammer and frenzy, not spike, this is where your skull and self importance stand in the way of grasping yet another concept, but lets not go too far with this.

If I mess up the spike, well A: its messed up and no one dies, and B: Im on my ass for a split second.

If its pulled off, 270+ damage in TWO hits. Right well yeah, maybe axe does slightly more, but then axe HAS NOT SUCKED THE OTHER TEAM DRY outside of the spike.

Tap tap tap, hows that head?

I can see im not going to win this, but then I dont build my individual and Guild teams from this very forum tbh.

By the way if you read back ( i can understand reading is hard) I showed that BEING GENEROUS, deep wound accounts for 20% extra spike damage, from ONLY A SINGLE WARRIOR, at the expense of constant hammer pressure.

If you want to say one single Axe does more damage in a single spike I will agree.

If you want to say this means it is a better build, then im going to laugh at you, regardless of the penalties for having a monk spot the spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

The idea isn't to kill the monk, the idea is to keep his energy bottomed out by forcing him to heal.

The difference is mostly due to the higher base dps, hammers are about 10% higher IIRC. To me that doesn't seem worth the sacrifice of a shield and the spike capability.

A: You want to try to unleash some kind of spike if possible, and coupled to regeneration you actually want to be testing that drain/spike combo as effectivlly as possible.

B: The DPS isnt the issue, nor is the spike damage. The issue here is Non adrenaline pressure COMBINED with the Frequency of High damage adrenaline pressure = ftw in team v team slugfest.

If people want to debate the merits of whatever and whenever in such and such scenario then do so.

I am going to ask you to read my posts, then stop laying catagorical, blanket claims in a game that is highly situational.

Im also going to break you or your monk with less than 4 swings if we meet in GvG. Or die fast, but well, thats me.

Symbol · May 22, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

A: You want to try to unleash some kind of spike if possible, and coupled to regeneration you actually want to be testing that drain/spike combo as effectivlly as possible.

I don't even know what this means.

Quote:

B: The DPS isnt the issue, nor is the spike damage. The issue here is Non adrenaline pressure COMBINED with the Frequency of High damage adrenaline pressure = ftw in team v team slugfest.

dps IS pressure. Your focus on non-adrenaline "pressure" is nonsensical, do warriors not build up adrenaline while attacking? Do they not have adrenal skills that add extra damage (and hence dps)? Then why are we counting base damage only?

Quote:

I am going to ask you to read my posts, then stop laying catagorical, blanket claims in a game that is highly situational

At this point I'd be happy if you'd actually be clear about wtf you're going on about.

SparhawkJC · May 22, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have my monks spend their energy healing softer targets than myself when I'm playing warrior. Your build isn't a spike build, since without deep wounds it doesn't qualify as a spike. I'm not going to insult your intelligence like you tried to do with mine, but I fail to see how a possible extra 100 damage qualifies as only 20%, unless you're doing 500 damage with your little combo which I highly doubt. Also how does putting up a 5 energy guardian and kiting drain a monk dry? The monk's obviously got nothing to stop them from kiting besides a knockdown with a 45 energy recharge and another that is dependent on a condition that can be easily removed. You're overestimating a lot of things like adrenaline gain with a hammer, which is severely cut in half if you've ever played against decent monks. I've read your posts, which are generally full of assumptions without any facts to back them up. Notice how nobody is agreeing with anything you've said?

ghostof · May 22, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

I believe what ghostof and -JR are trying to say is that your forceful blow+fierce blow combo is complete and utter crap. If you try to take down a boon/prot monk with that you'll end up on your ass and the monk will be laughing at you while walking away under Aegis or Guardian. Read the discription of forceful blow, if you miss you're the one that's knocked down not your target. If you want to add that silly extra damage of yours without deep wound you might as well switch to sword and use silverwing+galrath and save your elite slot. You have 2 knockdowns in your chain, 1 which has a 45 second recharge and the other is dependent on weakness. Also no healing sig makes baby rurik cry. Endure pain? That's like trying to save the Titanic with a band-aid.

He has no tactics for heal signet. How does he have no tactics though with no secondary prof. skills? All str and hammer?

My axe build uses max axe str tactics. Shock is just an always hit interrupt/spike precursor if running duel axe over hammer/axe. Air is useless for all but energy which I don't really need points in air to get more energy.

I personally dont care for the combo but I didn't say utter crap. I dont like the damage dependent on weakness being on the target though. Especially since its applied through a adrenline skill. Conditions come off in gvg quickly. Attacks miss frequently. If weakness isn't on your target the damage you output is significantly lower. Even a miss/block/evade of Evsceriate doesn't gimp the other adrenline skills.

It has a nice spike to it if you get lucky but the sheer lack of keeping a monk on there back with a hammer is what I was hitting at. Your number 1 kd is dependent on a monk being moving and as often the case we stop and heal often making this somewhat shakey. 45 second recharge is long and 10 energy is alot. The other as mentioned needs a condition to kd. Irrestible blow is far better. Rush is iffy and conditional. I personally would go bull strike.

I would also consider some healing I personally like CoP if I am not taking heal signet. We run some taint in gvg (sometimes) so I can count on at least 1 enchantment. I have been contemplating testing signet of rejuvenation on a hammer warrior build but I prefer heal signet since its realible and I can keep the tactics line.

I never said hammers where not good. I just dont agree with your build or premise on knocking down with a hammer isn't important. I think its the best part of using a hammer. I also think the dps of the axe is slightly higher for whatever screwed up anet reason. I think the hammer packs a harder blow and keeps you down. Just dont tell me that axes are not good at pressure. Axes are great at pressure as are hammers. I dont like your build though.

AhuraMazda · May 22, 2006, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Symbol.

"dps IS pressure. Your focus on non-adrenaline "pressure" is nonsensical"

Your entire post says what I just said in my last three, except you didnt understand it. No problem to me, just pointing that out.

Sparhawk and Ghostof....

"kill the monk!!! kill the monk!!!! kill the monk!!!!" combined with myth and/or blatant ignorance.

And that is all I have to say to you.

It really has been a pleasure.

Edit: Learning to read is a skill worth persuing.

I said the DIFFERENCE between a SINGLE WARRIORS hammer spike or axe spike, is at best 20% increase in damage, in exchange for every other issue I have brought up. Thanks mostly to the inclusion of a deep wound. Next time I will try harder to spell out what can be complicated to read, for those of you eager to jump to the wrong conclusion.

Go back, read slowly and carefully, ignore the names of posters, and comment on things written you disagree with.

There is a good little poster.

Symbol · May 22, 2006, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Your entire post says what I just said in my last three, except you didnt understand it. No problem to me, just pointing that out.

Maybe in bizarro-english "The DPS isnt the issue" is somehow equivalent to "dps IS pressure."

It's not my problem you choose to speak some strange moon language that no one else here seems to understand.

I wish I could say it's been a pleasure, but it really hasn't.

XxForgexX · May 22, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

like, wow. coupla things i'd like to point out:

1. a hammer's warrior's strength lies in the following skills: Backbreaker/Devastating Hammer/Earthshaker, Hammer Bash/Heavy Blow, Crushing Blow, and Irresistable Blow. if you don't have some combination of 3 or 4 of those, slightly higher DPS than axe/sword isn't going to stop the opposing team from simply ignoring you (and giggling occassionally) as you swing away at their monks

2. an axe warrior's strength lies in the fact that he only needs 2 skills (well, 3 if you count Frenzy) and 8 adrenaline to pull off a ~300-pt. spike in a second and a half

3. a sword warrior's strength lies in the fact that Final Thrust isn't an elite skill. therefore he has much greater utility choices than axe or hammer, while still having comparable damage

4. in much the same way as Energy Storage is the Ether Prodigy attribute, 9 times out of 10 Strength is simply the Sprint attribute

5. going along with #4, if you don't have at least a 115-pt. Healing Signet, slap yourself. hard

SaintGreg · May 22, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

And when you factor in TWO or more warriors, well then the entire issue becomes a complete and utter non-issue, as two deep wounds dont stack.

If I had more then one warrior, even up to 4 warriors in the same build, each and every one of them would have deep wound. Every sword warrior would bring gash, every axe warrior eviscerate, and every hammer warrior crushing blow. Thats how important deep wound is. If a target gets hit with two deep wounds it is worth it still, because if one of those had missed, instead of missing out on 180 damage, you only miss out on 80 damage.

Quote:

Right well yeah, maybe axe does slightly more, but then axe HAS NOT SUCKED THE OTHER TEAM DRY outside of the spike

A difference of 10% in average dps between a hammer and an axe is not the difference between doing nothing, and <caps>sucking the team dry</caps>, it just isnt. It is a tangible, noticeable, but small effect. 10% is something that helps, not something that breaks the other team. It certainly does help, but not enough to make an inferior spike a superior one. Knockdown is why you bring a hammer, not 10%.

Quote:

It's easy to calculate pressure. Just calculate dps and be done with it.

Pressure is alot more difficult to quantify than simply calculating dps. How heavy to you weigh knockdowns? How much extra "dps" do you add to a bull's strike that knocks down versus one that doesn't - just the +20ish, or more because of the KD? Its certainly not number crunchable, and its fairly difficult to ascertain in the game as well. But either way, I would take bull's strike over any other attack skill in many situations, because it works.

In any build, you have to decide how you get kills. Unless you are pure spike it is pretty impossible to just number crunch and decide whether or not you will kill anything. In practice you have to playtest, because the ideal situation just never ever ever happens, making all your number crunching moot anyways.

AhuraMazda · May 22, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Thats ten percent more DPS each warrior, duel hammer warrior doing more spike damage than duel axe.

Knockdown, yeah its nice, but seeing as its 'lose all adrenaline' in adrenaline spike, its tertiary or more. (in battle, not in forums), nice to have to -nail-that-fuker-that-is-crawling-away, yeah true.

Hey whatever, bring your axe warrior to the party.

Lord Dark Genie · May 23, 2006, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

Knockdown, yeah its nice, but seeing as its 'lose all adrenaline' in adrenaline spike, its tertiary or more. (in battle, not in forums), nice to have to -nail-that-fuker-that-is-crawling-away, yeah true.

Bash comes at the end of your chain anyway... I don't mind losing all adrenaline when I just used all my adrenaline skills.

AhuraMazda · May 23, 2006, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Dark Genie

Bash comes at the end of your chain anyway... I don't mind losing all adrenaline when I just used all my adrenaline skills.

Using adrenaline skills generates adrenaline. Using hammer knockdowns makes taking the decision to use the knockdown, or build up the spike chain slightly quicker.

I mind losing all adrenaline if I dont have to, or its not going to be effective. If I nail someone with the adreanline spike, and they survive it well, then using hammer bash is a waste of adrenaline.

It is up to the individual player to learn these tiny slight 'mechanics' you could say, and use them to play the BATTLE as best as possible.

How many spikers for example are going to keep pouring energy at a character that survived the spike and is hiding behind a wall of protection? Exactly.

Oh and 'SaintGreg', although you claimed the importance of certain numbers, then claimed number crunshing isnt important, I would like to point out to you some things.

10% might be the difference between 1st and second place. So might 0.0000001%

In non-split GvG deep wound will be REMOVED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. The only possible premise for inclusion of deep wound in 8v8 would be
A: the increased spike damage (SHOWN TO BE NON EXISTANT AND INFERIOR IN MULTIPLE WARRIOR SPIKES, refer to my previous posts and prove my arguements wrong)
B: Application post spike (which is what the hammer ultimatly does) in a high pressure/energy denial build. (Which is also what the hammer applies more of when used)
C: Running specifically split builds with solo warrior in each group, with the plan to limit large scale single battles as much as possible.

The Evisc and Hammer deep wounds, due to their presence in skill combo chains, do different things ultimatly.

The Evisc deep wounds makes eviscerate the most damaging non situational warrior attack. We covered this.

The Evisc deep wound ultimatly means that multiple eviscerates on a single target rapidly lose their damage advantage over other skills. Covered again and again.

It does not 'matter' how 'important' you 'think' deep wound is. What matters is how it is used, what it means to the team, what it means to the enemy.

If you can only 'claim', because of deep wounds power in 4v4 against solo monks, or because of last seasons and GWWCs Axe using warrior builds, without giving the time to explain in depth the merits of these issues, then I am sorry, you simply seem to me to not know what you are talking about.

I seem to be thinking, writing and describing as much warrior based tactics, situations and information as I have ever seen in two pages from one poster, and you wont even do the decency arguing properly.

JR · May 23, 2006, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

As JR said there are simply two ways to win. You either overcome the opposing teams ability to deal with damage. Either with your speed, or with the size, depth and strength of your attack. The spike.

OR. You push them to the edge, force a hard solid constant permenant life or death struggle.
Like the persistance chase hunt style of Ancient Africa. You dont run after your quarry, you persue him, relentlessly, constantly. And once both you and him are exhuasted, and at the point of the collapse, the one with the spear is in his hand becomes the victor.

I am such a fan of the second style, so much skill and perservance, such a FIGHT.

Agreed, it is an effective style of play. However, to make it as or more effective at getting kills than Spike, you need a much more offensively geared build. That amount of front-loading will decrease your damage mitigation potential.

Take the Rifts Thumper/Fire/MM build. It would either roll you straight off, or you would manage to last out the onslaught and roll them. For example their two Elementalists at the stand had to go /R for Energising Winds, so no Heal Party or Draw Conditions. They didn't have the energy to support Blinding Flash or a Ward or two... It isn't really as flexible as standard Adren+Mixed spike builds.

Spike has more room for utility because you do not need as much of an offense to spike, as obviously the whole point of it is to bypass most of the healing/prot. For example you may want two Eles with Lightning Orb, a Shatter Enchantment, and an Axe Warrior and a Hammer Warrior. That is two whole characters and three further skill slots dedicated to your offense, the rest can be further offense or pure utility and damage mitigation. With a pure all out pressure build that relies on tapping out Monks you need more, as you are dealing with actually powering through the Monk heals and prot, due to not being able to get rapid kills.

Personally I prefer the flexibility of being able to devote more slots to utility type skills.

SaintGreg · May 23, 2006, 05:14 PM // 17:14

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Knockdown, yeah its nice, but seeing as its 'lose all adrenaline' in adrenaline spike, its tertiary or more.

I fell out of love with Hammer Bash ages ago because the extra knockdown after your chain doesn't actually kill anything, and it does waste a good bit of adrenaline. That doesn't make knockdowns that don't lose all adrenaline any less important.

This whole mini-discussion started when it came up on whether forceful blow then fierce blow was a better spike then either an axe or a different elite hammer spike. If you had two warriors spiking the same target then knockdown becomes even more important to hold the target in place. Whether that comes from a mid-line gale, or a warrior shock, or an elite hammer knockdown, it does have to come from somewhere or your spike will most likely fail.

You haven't pointed out that your hammer warrior would have shock, a second warrior would have some KD, or that an ele will be galing or water snaring him, so I can only assume that the enemy is smart enough to kite through your forceful blow spike.

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In non-split GvG deep wound will be REMOVED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

The idea of a spike is to kill someone before they can fully react. They aren't going to remove the deep wound before they actually heal the spike target. Deep wound will be on long enough to kill the guy, if you still can't kill him by the time it is removed then it doesn't matter anyways, because the spike failed. Deep wound is essentially a free 100 points of damage that goes through prots, why wouldn't you use it in a spike?

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10% might be the difference between 1st and second place.

Thats true, it might be. But it isn't the difference between night and day. I said it was a small, perceivable advantage, which it is. That doesn't make me want to use forceful blow though. It doesn't even make me want to use devestating hammer or backbreaker, those skills alone speak for themselves. The 10% is a nice bonus since you want to use devestating or backbreaker anyways.

Quote:

It does not 'matter' how 'important' you 'think' deep wound is. What matters is how it is used, what it means to the team, what it means to the enemy.

Deep wound is used to make it easier to kill someone in a spike. It makes it easier to kill someone, which is good for our team and bad for their team. Which is why I will use deep wound, since I sure as hell know they will use it to make me easier to kill.

Ensign · May 23, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

You can kill things two ways. Spiking, or pressuring so hard you tap out the opposing monks.

The third way to kill people is to pile strong mes effects onto their defense, and then use moderate amounts of unmitigated damage to drop a target. This approach to breaking a defense has been so popular at a high level of play that at one point several top teams were decidedly weak against both spike and pressure offenses, as the only teams that threatened them were similarly beating people with shutdown offenses.

Peace,
-CxE

JR · May 23, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The third way to kill people is to pile strong mes effects onto their defense, and then use moderate amounts of unmitigated damage to drop a target. This approach to breaking a defense has been so popular at a high level of play that at one point several top teams were decidedly weak against both spike and pressure offenses, as the only teams that threatened them were similarly beating people with shutdown offenses.

Peace,
-CxE

Bad wording on my part, I included that sort of shut down (the Surge/Burn trend that I believe you are referring to) under the catagory of pressure. Pressure of a different kind of course; not spending energy healing through damage, but having it spent for you. I know when facing a Surge/Burn build I sure as hell felt under pressure as a Monk... However yes, you are right.