Curse

icemonkey · Apr 10, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

bulls strike then shock
gg JR-

(rap battle?)

Vindexus · Apr 10, 2006, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

bulls strike then shock
gg JR-

(rap battle?)

I don't think he meant 4s total, I think he meant in a row.

Rey Lentless · Apr 10, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

When Axes can pin a target to the floor for 4 seconds, come call me.

As opposed to 3? Add in gale or shock, and it's 6. Hammers don't have a monopoly on knockdowns. Against a ward of stability, they will have a monopoly on sucking however.

JR · Apr 10, 2006, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Bull's Strike is over-rated. Lern2Kite.

Gale on a warrior? Not hugely viable anymore. Shock? Decent, but not a very long KD.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 11, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

When Axes can pin a target to the floor for 4 seconds, come call me.

Dude, you completely miss the point. Axes dont have to KD a target as long a duration as hammers, they're still pretty damn useful. The point is that it's too easy for axes to have KD's almost as effective as hammers and still do comparable damage as hammers with none of the sacrifice.

And again, I repeat myself, Hammers are still very effective, it's just unsettling that axes can be just as effective and have more benefits of defense and damage.

icemonkey · Apr 11, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Bull's Strike is over-rated. Lern2Kite.

kiting is indentically what gets you knocked down by bulls strike, sprint+bulls strike ftw?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

I don't think he meant 4s total, I think he meant in a row.

if you bulls strike and then shock as soon as they get up they will be as good as knocked down for longer than 4s because whatever they were casting when they stood up will be interrupted. also it does not use your elite slot, or cost a rediculous amount of adrenaline

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

As opposed to 3? Add in gale or shock, and it's 6. Hammers don't have a monopoly on knockdowns. Against a ward of stability, they will have a monopoly on sucking however.

LMFAO!!!!
however this captures what I believe to be the locus of this thread: Hammers have an insignificant edge in damage to the other warrior weapons, which is supposed to be a trade off for not having a shield. But with hammers you also gain the ability to knock down, HOWEVER, when knockdown is taken away, either through loss of exclusivity or a ward of stability you get the pile of junk that is the hammer warrior, slow attack speed, high adrenaline cost, not better DPS...etc etc etc

and there are a few main arguments here
1.hammer knockdown is good and pushes hammers over their shortcommings, something ward of stability will remove
2.Hammer damage IS better than axes, it is just different. This is not clear by any assessment, hammers can sometimes out damage an axe and the other way around, I think its a wash.

I think the hammer warrior has a niche as well as the axe, thats why a lot of teams run 1 of each, or replace one with a sword as well, to a lesser extent.

JR · Apr 11, 2006, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

kiting is indentically what gets you knocked down by bulls strike, sprint+bulls strike ftw?

Learn to stop running for a second when you see them hit Bull's Strike? It's a conditional snare that relies on being within melee range... I'd rather use Axe Rake.

Seriously, from the perspective of a monk who has played against many decent teams using Bull's Strike Warriors, it's not really a big deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

1.hammer knockdown is good and pushes hammers over their shortcommings, something ward of stability will remove

In HA, maybe.

Patrograd · Apr 11, 2006, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

In HA, maybe.

And in that short sentence I think we have the cause of the disagreement.

We have some people talking about HA, where ward of stability might well erase the already practically non-existant hammer warrior, and others talking about GvG, who are wondering why everyone is concerned about wards and why no-one appreciates the truly awesome power of a hammer warrior.

As another example, in GvG I'd take gale over shock on an axe warrior every time in certain team builds. It is still very viable if used as an occasional snare rather than a knocklock, and you cant really use shock, or for that matter bulls strike as a snare, at least not in the sense that I am thinking of, as they require melee range. However, in HA, that kind of snaring isnt really a concern, so people bring shock. Also in GvG, since the latest patch, you cant knocklock using an exhaustion spell for any extended period of time - you actually need a hammer warrior if you want to do this - whereas because of the short duration of your average tombs brawl you can probably get away with it

projectnavi · Apr 11, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

It's a 10% increase in DPS w/ regular swinging. The superior and more often charged attack skills from axes and swords overcomes this 10%. Any buffs would again be in favor of axes and swords, as is spiking.

Should dps on axes and swords be better than hammers? I think not. Hammers should do more damage than axes and swords, not just.. enough more to make up for the lesser damage skills to break even.

10% doesn't do hammers justice, but I believe 20% would.. (which is what 1.6 cooldown would be).

what you forget in all of your post is the DPS issue. the hammer has the highest DPS available.

sure axe packs lots of damage and the adren based deep wound is nice, but that deep wound is predictable, and will be used to heal with mend cond for nearly 200 hp. if you do it on a monk it will be CoPed or mended by the other monk.

a hammer war spike is alot more DPS. remember that DPS is per second, not over time. i would say that axe put more pressure, but a spike coming from a hammer war is alot more devastating than coming from a axe war. once loaded on adrenaline (which i will grant you the fact that a hammer war will be the slowest to build upon), the hammer unleash Alot more damage in 3 seconds than can a axe or sword war. you just can't argue with this.

just the fact that you finish a spike with a hammer on Irresistible blow would make all the difference. if i see a character being beat up by an axe, first theres the use of the deep wound to heal in less than a second, and 2ndly that guy is gonna get a guardian for sure. then your pretty exec strike misses and your spike is screwed. that won't happen with a hammer running irresistible blow. his final blow Will land.

i've monked for most of my gvg experience in the last 5 months cause my guild won't let me play anything else, and trust me, a hammer war is ALOT more scary than a axe war will ever be.

nebuchanezzar · Apr 11, 2006, 05:30 PM // 17:30

I posted before and rambled a bit ..I do that forgive me =]. Hammers are fun but even with KDs still there for them have one major drawback above all else and that is the non-adrenal Deep Wound skill. Of all 3 weapons only the hammers energy based always hitting attack is worthwhile IMO. Irresistable Blow cannot be evaded or blocked. If its blocked your target is KD'd..and takes a little damage to but the kd and adrenaline is nice. Sword and ax have theirs too but DW and Bleeding..something their builds probably already have in it.
Energy is any hammer warriors biggest concern IMO. The Ax and Sword crowd have Zealous weapons as a viable option. Even if they are only hitting 50% of the time they are getting 1 or more hits per 3 seconds to at least equal the lost pip of energy regen. During Frenzy or other IAS they are swinging faster than 1/second. Even if half miss now its still a positive swing. Now take into account that the DW that is(should be) part of every warriors combo comes *free* while your building up your E for other skills.
Hammers barely break even with a zealous mod if they never miss!! Unless your team keeps up Rigor Mortis or you have some magical Warriors Cunning that never ends you will manage 3 swings connecting in about 6 seconds. Thats a net gain of 1E over that time if you had a zealous mod...and never missed...and they werent running so you had to catch up. Dont forget you need to have minimum 10+ E to combo him if you wanna kill. Crushing Blow + Irresistable + others fill in your choice. Even with Frenzy the hammers attack speed catches up to normal Sword and Axes(I think...or pretty close but not much faster). That still doesnt make it energy gaining though. Frenzy costs 5E lasts 8 seconds. Over 8 seconds a warrior regens 5 1/3 Energy making it possibly perpetual. A warrior with a zealous mod(not counting hits yet) gets 2 2/3s E in that time period. If a hammer swings every 1.33(frenzied) and never misses they can land 6 attacks to total 8 2/3 E in a perfect world...thats what ax and sword get normally =[. Under IAS and zealous at attacks every (.8778 seconds right?) for just over 9 hits. 11 2/3s E for them AND THEIR DW IS *FREE*!
Maybe a 2/-1 Zealous Hammer haft or an adrenal DW. I dont really think you need to up speed...I mean realistically how fast you gonna swing that massive thing compared to a little sword or ax lol. Maybe a minimun attack speed setting. Not sure how fair that would be as then SoF, Faint etc would be more detrimental to Ax/Sword but perhaps limit minimum attack speed to 1 per 2 or 2 1/2 seconds. Its almost pathetic watching a hammer warrior under a slowing hex lol.

*Denotes not truely free as yes there is an Adrenaline requirement =].

projectnavi · Apr 11, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

well, you sure are right, hammer requires alot more energy. until faction comes out where you will have Auspicious Blow, then you still gotta learn how to deal with your energy.

thats is why the hammer war is much harder than the other wars to play effectively. you need to be aware of alot more things than the other two to make it effective.

but they are still the most scary since they pack the more DPS by far if you know how to run and unleash it properly.

Seef II · Apr 11, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by projectnavi

well, you sure are right, hammer requires alot more energy. until faction comes out where you will have Auspicious Blow, then you still gotta learn how to deal with your energy.

Yay, let's gain energy if my target's weakened! Doesn't sound that bad if you do devastating -> crushing -> auspicious but that pretty much eats the bull's/irresistible slot - which hammer warriors are already kind of short on.

Byron · Apr 12, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by projectnavi

once loaded on adrenaline (which i will grant you the fact that a hammer war will be the slowest to build upon), the hammer unleash Alot more damage in 3 seconds than can a axe or sword war. you just can't argue with this.

An axe can probably equal the damage output with a good Eviscerate->Executioner's->whatever, but that's reliant on critical hits, as is pretty much all axe attack.
In three seconds, however, give me a sword, and I'll sever->gash->hundred blades->final for more damage than any three hammer attacks could dish out. Final thrust on a deep wound softie = gg.

Quote:

if i see a character being beat up by an axe, first theres the use of the deep wound to heal in less than a second, and 2ndly that guy is gonna get a guardian for sure. then your pretty exec strike misses and your spike is screwed.

In my experience, if you're running against a good monk backline, your one-man spike isn't going to matter much anyway. A softie calls for some prots, and your backbreaker misses..then what? Irresistable blow doesn't solve the problem of enemy prots, IMHO.

Quote:

i've monked for most of my gvg experience in the last 5 months cause my guild won't let me play anything else, and trust me, a hammer war is ALOT more scary than a axe war will ever be.

I'd argue that they're not scary until you see what they are capable of. A good warrior is scary to any softie, regardless of what weapons they may be packing.

Byron · May 11, 2006, 05:36 AM // 05:36

*Ressed* in light of recent high-end GvG KD obsession. More especially, Be Team running iQ's build and terrorizing the ranks.

It seems that multiple KD warriors versus your standard two-boon backline means big hurts. So how do we all feel about hammers at this stage of the game?

Seef II · May 11, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

I'm not particularly impressed with the new hammer skills.

Fierce Blow (+42 on Weakened targets, +21 otherwise) is not that great compared to Mighty Blow (+37 always). Auspicious' damage looks alright considering its secondary purpose, but its cost at 8a makes it sort of like the Axe Twist of old.
Enraged Smash is interesting, but forces you to bring stuff like Rush, Counter Blow, Fear Me, and Watch Yourself to get going quickly. You could always use hammer bash if you want a KD, but the lose all adrenaline is pretty poor synergy with Enraged Smash. For a dps build, I'm not quite sure about how you'd realistically use it, since all those other adrenal skills compete for precious space (Bull's Strike, Endure Pain, Healing Signet, Shock...).

I think I'll reiterate and say that Prophecies gave hammer all they needed - Irresistible, Devastating*/Backbreaker*, and Crushing Blow. The Factions skills open up some new possibilities, but many of them are a) geared for PvE (Yeti Smash) or b) relatively subpar compared to already-existing alternatives (Fierce Blow). Maybe even both (Renewing Smash). Swords had a few lanes open up with the coming of Factions with Quivering Blade* and Dragon Slash*, although sever-gash-final will still the canonical spike. Hammers, generally taken for their KD ability, don't gain much in that respect in Factions. Damagewise, an axe guy will still do well and can KD with Shock/Gale/Bull's, while being slightly more durable at the same time.

The sad thing is that even the pve-leaning skills aren't that great. Stance tanks will use a shield (maybe a hammer swap, hehe) and Yeti Smash charges too slowly to be used more than, say, twice in a fight when Cyclone Axe could've been used at least 4-5 times. But all of this is moot in this forum.

Bah. Still, hammer warriors have their place, WM's been doing pretty well with one.

Byron · May 11, 2006, 06:07 AM // 06:07

I've tried out the new combo I've been itching to prove:

Forceful blow->Heavy Blow->Crushing Blow

And I am somewhat impressed with the results. Each attack has the capability of dealing over 100 damage to soft targets. Fit in an irresitable blow, and damage chains are borderline amazing. But, its only good as a package.

Yes, there are drawbacks besides the enemy evade=KD on the forceful. The big one is that a Forceful hit is required before a heavy blow, and thus a forceful is needed for a KD. That factor alone may be worth subbing it out. Spiking gets more complicated since your first attack isn't the KD, as it usually is.

So overall, I agree that factions hammer skills do little for hammer warriors. Then again, factions skills did little for warriors at all IMO.

The Real Roy Keane · May 11, 2006, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Can't see anything there to tempt me away from Backbreaker or Devastating, to be honest.

Ec]-[oMaN · May 11, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

I've been testing these two combos on the 60armors;
#1 Frenzy,backbreaker,crushing,ires,mighty blow
#2 Frenzy,devastating,crushing,ires,auspicious blow

Obviously the first does more damage, but maybe the second could still be of use if you're running two war build, if the target doesn't go down if they havnt mended the weakness which would be covered with deep wound, you could get 8mana back from auspicious blow....second also uses less adren and charges sooner.

Age · May 11, 2006, 09:59 PM // 21:59

I see more them all the time I think there might be a come back.

SaintGreg · May 12, 2006, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Forceful blow->Heavy Blow->Crushing Blow

The Problem with that is that its fairly easy to heal up the damage if you don't KD first. Kiting would also just destroy any sort of spike you could have had. Bulls strike then that combo would probably work pretty well at doing alot of damage and keeping a single guy on his butt, but then you are almost completely dependant on hitting bull's strike and it still isn't any sort of coordinated spike.