Curse

SaintGreg · Apr 05, 2006, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Ward against melee quadruples its value against IWAY.

It came out horribly wrong. What I mean is that if you rely on ward against melee to deal with IWAY by having anyone getting raged by a warrior kiting around the ward, a single trap in your ward will ruin your day. More practical is being able to use ward vs melee against teams with one or two warriors that rely on coordinated spikes to kill. See two warriors coming after you, run into the ward before they get there to prevent a lot of the spike. This doesn't require many people to be in the same spot at once, so you can actually get the most out of the ward. Against IWAY you can't even really use the ward when you need it because of traps and meteor showers and such not letting you actually go in there. It can help, but it isn't THAT remarkable.

icemonkey · Apr 06, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arathorn5000

Seems that every topic ends up talking about how the certain thing will affect HA in all its ridiculousness

becuase its rediculous to think that wards have much affect in GvG. No one uses ward against melee in GvG, cuz the game requires more movement. And ward against foes is mostly for preventing movemen not kiting through. No one stands in wards in GvG cuz nothing is really tieing you to one spot, movement is beter than wards. There are also battle lines in GvG, none of that in HA. So ward against knockdown is really only viable in HA or maybe alliance battles because you are gonna be stuck at one place: an altar, a relic, capture point. Those things are different in GvG. Honestly, i dont htink i have ever played a GvG build with any wards, but 75% of tombs builds i play have them. Thats why we bring up tombs hwen talking about wards

Greedy Gus · Apr 06, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

I completely understand why it came up. The setup of HA rewards poor stationary tactics and low flexibility. Then again, this topic is not "Wards - worth it?" Consider it a request to get back on the subject of hammers or splitting the ward discussion and shock/gale in tombs to a new thread.

wheel · Apr 06, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

becuase its rediculous to think that wards have much affect in GvG. No one uses ward against melee in GvG, cuz the game requires more movement. And ward against foes is mostly for preventing movemen not kiting through. No one stands in wards in GvG cuz nothing is really tieing you to one spot, movement is beter than wards. There are also battle lines in GvG, none of that in HA. So ward against knockdown is really only viable in HA or maybe alliance battles because you are gonna be stuck at one place: an altar, a relic, capture point. Those things are different in GvG. Honestly, i dont htink i have ever played a GvG build with any wards, but 75% of tombs builds i play have them. Thats why we bring up tombs hwen talking about wards

I definitely agree. The few times I've seen wards in GvG are in an Obsidian Flame spike team. Even then, they're fairly ineffectual because of the nature of movement in GvG versus spike, where the wards, to be useful, requires the spike team to anchor themselves down relatively, while the enemy team will be taking out NPCs and spreading your team out. Wards definitely have their place, but most of that place will be in HoH simply due to the nature of the map.

JR · Apr 06, 2006, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

No one uses ward against melee in GvG

Not quite accurate. A few top teams have used Ward Against Melee due to it's low cost, and fairly substantial effect. However, I largely agree with the sentiment of your post.

icemonkey · Apr 06, 2006, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

The setup of HA rewards poor stationary tactics and low flexibility.

I do not mean to throw this off topic but I would like one final word. While the strategies required for holding/winning HA are-in some respects- rediculous, they are not poor/bad tactics. The nature of the game is deathmatch, in generally small restrictive maps, and the altars my god the altars. People do not want to use poor gimmicky strategies, thats just what works. You need to defend an altar and that is stationary therefore you get a lot of stationary tactics. Its not wrong or bad tactics compared to GvG its different. You don't have to like it but don't dog HA just cuz you don't like the gimmick, concentrate on GvG.

stickyballs · Apr 06, 2006, 01:58 AM // 01:58

This isn't about Hammer warriors, but it's on topic with what people are talking about right now...

HA is *NOT* for hardcore PvPers. Why? Because most of them complain about the rehashed builds and lame maps. Go GvG then. HA was not built to be the ULTIMATE tournament or something. It was built so you could get Rank, something to show off with. It was never intended as a discriminatory gesture, it was just supposed to be a fun place for PvPers to get a different experience if they weren't in a top guild or something. I mean the game is GUILD WARS, and the main focus is GvG, even though there are those who like HA a lot better since you can PUG it up and shit. Also, not everybody can be in a top and active guild.

Nightwish · Apr 06, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

So if i really want to stick to one warrior weapon in pvp, that would be non hammer i suppose?

Rey Lentless · Apr 06, 2006, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightwish

So if i really want to stick to one warrior weapon in pvp, that would be non hammer i suppose?

Nah, it isn't as bad as some of us might have made it sound. It's really a minor balance issue in the whole scheme of things to me and it was more of a pre-emptive concern on my end.

However, it is a weapon and therefore easier to compare to other weapons.. than most skills are comparable to other skills. You can crunch numbers and get more tangibly relevant things from those numbers than you could with most elements of the game. Hammers do have an element that's tough to put a value on, but what it comes down to is.. you use them for knockdowns, or you don't use them. Axes and swords are superior in every other way.

I agree that the ward's going to have a much greater effect on HA than in gvg. HA might be a lower form of pvp, but nevertheless I don't accept hammers as balanced if they simply won't be used there, and I do think it will come to that.

Nightwish · Apr 06, 2006, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Yea, at the moment, the ward of stability really affects hammers, its not just the lack of KD but..

No KD = No Deep Wound from Crushing blow

So hammer wars lose two abilities within that ward alone.

Its effect can be comparable to an imaginary ward of (___), that prevents bleeding, on a sword warrior. No bleeding = no gash's deep wound.

suiraCLAW · Apr 06, 2006, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightwish

Yea, at the moment, the ward of stability really affects hammers, its not just the lack of KD but..

No KD = No Deep Wound from Crushing blow

So hammer wars lose two abilities within that ward alone.

Its effect can be comparable to an imaginary ward of (___), that prevents bleeding, on a sword warrior. No bleeding = no gash's deep wound.

It's even worse: hammer warriors don't have crushing blow in faction... (if I'm right)

LightningHell · Apr 06, 2006, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

It's even worse: hammer warriors don't have crushing blow in faction... (if I'm right)

Erm, you mean if you buy Factions standalone, right?

suiraCLAW · Apr 06, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Erm, you mean if you buy Factions standalone, right?

yes...

icemonkey · Apr 06, 2006, 05:08 PM // 17:08

If you sort skills by campaign/chapter in game or on guild wiki, you will see that people that only have factiosn will basically not be able to PvP without buying prophecies. There are entire 8-bars, or close to it, of pupular PvP chars on the prophecies only list.

So people that only have factiosn will be at an insurmountable disadvantage in PvP

Seef II · Apr 07, 2006, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Let's keep on topic.

This gets into the realm of wishful thinking, but if Counter Blow's cost was adjusted slightly upwards (5a, maybe) and knocked down casting foes as well, it could be an interesting skill to try to use in PvP. A knockdown that'll land a large amount of the time and won't drain all adrenaline (and isn't elite). It'll suffer from "next hit syndrome" like pre-buff ranger interrupts though, but could boost hammer popularity.

edit: typos

SziP · Apr 07, 2006, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Wammos with Hammers , that use Echo Mending = gg ^^

Ok sorry that i was offtopic, lately ive been playing with Hammers and , what can i say, i can take down any warrior i want, its very nice, especially in 12 vs 12 battles.

Byron · Apr 07, 2006, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

What I mean is that if you rely on ward against melee to deal with IWAY by having anyone getting raged by a warrior kiting around the ward, a single trap in your ward will ruin your day.

No doubts, and I agree with your original point. However, i know most most mesmers I've played with just love screwing trappers. So I simply didn't include traps in my statement, hehe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

but if Counter Blow's cost was adjusted slightly upwards (5a, maybe) and knocked down casting foes as well, it could be an interesting skill to try to use in PvP.

Of all the weapons that need defensive skills, hammer should be the most obvious. Slow attack speed and no shield already puts one at a big disadvantage. That said, counter blow is a joke. Swords get that powerful reposte duo, and then there's that tandum of shield bash and shield stance that hammers can't do. Even support skills like "Watch Yourself" are inefficient due to the slow attack speed, and thus, slow adrenaline gain. Hammers should have a very spammable defense skill, IMHO. Something to the effect of a once and done spellbreaker-type skill would be ideal, and almost worth the sacrifice of the defense advantage.

3 adn = "Bring it on!" Shout. While wielding a hammer, for 1-5 seconds, the next spell used against you fails.

Is that such a crime?

icemonkey · Apr 07, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

no, I think that would be good, hammers do get the shaft(pun INtended). But they could always bring hte new factions elite auspicious parry, oh wait hammers warriors cant drop an elite nvm.

Daneish · Apr 07, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Well, part of using a hammer is understanding that you sacrifice a shield and the defensive abilities associated with it. A Hammer warrior's defense is literally his or her knockdown skills. A knocked down target can't hurt you. KD's interrupt spells, attacks, signets, etc.

A hammer warrior with a full adrenaline bar can completely destroy a target on his own with one chain, with no assistance. You don't get that kind of offense out of sword or axe.

Byron · Apr 07, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneish

A Hammer warrior's defense is literally his or her knockdown skills.... KD's interrupt spells, attacks, signets, etc.

Yes, this is true, but with Shock and Bull's strike, an Axe warrior can out damage a hammer warrior and have significant KD capability, while at the same time wielding a shield or energy focus. Shock is even better than an attack KD half the time, since the only counter to it is spellbreaker or a warrior anti-KD stance.

Quote:

A hammer warrior with a full adrenaline bar can completely destroy a target on his own with one chain, with no assistance. You don't get that kind of offense out of sword or axe.

Agreed in spirit. However, the chain takes a long time to accomplish, so as long as the other team has a competent monk, that target you're unleashing on will certainly get heals or prots before you get all your attacks off. That's the big argument we've had in previous pages of this thread: The hammer's lack of spike capability. Most teams will bring a heap of defense to the field, so spiking is the only reliable way to take a target down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

But they could always bring hte new factions elite auspicious parry, oh wait hammers warriors cant drop an elite nvm.

I think Anet is worried about secondary warriors spamming a defensive skill, so that's why hammers haven't seen any help.