Curse

shardfenix · Jul 24, 2006, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Dark Genie

Touch Rangers are complete trash, sure they're good against bad people, but it's nowhere near overpowered.

If you think touch rangers are not overpowered, you need to uninstall guild wars right now. Go. I'll wait here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Dark Genie

Touch Rangers in GvG ? What kind of guilds are you playing against ? rank 1000 ?

Yes, we pwned them, but it was still annoying to work around the fact that our options were kite or die. Once they split up we destroyed them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Dark Genie

Crip Shotters are good in GvG, but nowhere near overpowered.

Unless you run a gank squad. Now, Who in the WORLD would run a gank squad in gvg? Certainly not the top 100 guilds on tv like WM and EViL.

Now, for the first time ever on guru, im stopping an argument. The game needs a very large overhaul on its skills, which wont happen until the next season a month away.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 24, 2006, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

If you think touch rangers are not overpowered, you need to uninstall guild wars right now. Go. I'll wait here.

Touch Rangers are not overpowered. They have decent DPS and are harder to shut down than warriors, but no spike potential and no Deep Wound. Their biggest benefit is an ability to hit through prots, but their lack of versatility makes them a pretty unviable choice for GvG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Yes, we pwned them, but it was still annoying to work around the fact that our options were kite or die. Once they split up we destroyed them.

Your options in GvG against a good team are always kite or die. If you don't kite against a good team you will be dead before your monks can call their energy pools. Kiting is an absolutely vital skill against any kind of coordinated offense. Even more so against warriors than against touch rangers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Unless you run a gank squad. Now, Who in the WORLD would run a gank squad in gvg? Certainly not the top 100 guilds on tv like WM and EViL.

Cripshot rangers are pretty strong in gank squads, though they run into a lot of the same issues as warriors. Oftentimes it's the warrior hate characters that get sent back to deal with gank squads (ie: Flashbots) and those characters often shut down Crip Shotters in the same way they shut down warriors. In a two-man gank squad I think an Ele with Draw, blinds, and Gale will be more effective than a Cripshot ranger a good portion of the time.

Maybe you should learn to counter these basic builds instead of calling for a nerf? I'm honestly not trying to be mean here, but the things you're talking about really are just fine, and some aren't even powerful enough to be used in higher level GvG.

Zui · Jul 24, 2006, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Maybe you should learn to counter these basic builds instead of calling for a nerf?

[sarcasam]But... That would require learning to play... It's so much easier to complain about everything that beats you being overpowered and call for a nerf, right?[/sarcasam]

JR · Jul 24, 2006, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

For those of you who play infusers a lot, back me up on this. Sometimes you know you 100% had the right person targeted, you lose half health and they get none.

Haven't had a problem since the update.

As a partial test I just went to Isle of The Nameless and infused "Student of Burning " 50 times. Hit every time without a problem.

Sounds like your friend may have been making excuses.

neoflame · Jul 24, 2006, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

If you think touch rangers are not overpowered, you need to uninstall guild wars right now. Go. I'll wait here.

The irony is strong in this one. learn2play

shardfenix · Jul 24, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Touch Rangers are not overpowered.

Didn't I say a few posts up that if you...nevermind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Your options in GvG against a good team are always kite or die.

So the point of gvg is to have 2 teams of 8 people who run away from each other and never fight? hmm...no wonder we keep losing. We were trying to deal damage and cap flags.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Maybe you should learn to counter these basic builds instead of calling for a nerf? I'm honestly not trying to be mean here, but the things you're talking about really are just fine, and some aren't even powerful enough to be used in higher level GvG.

Maybe you should give us noobs a way to counter these builds instead of saying "you noobs should find a counter for this build" If you think it's so easy, you help us then. Touch rangers aren't a problem in gvg, my main hate on them is in the lesser arenas, RA, TA, and AB.
What's a counter for AoE smite? Energy burn them once per second to keep their energy below 1? What else can you do to aoe smite...lets see you could divert it i guess, unless the smiter has half a brain. Maybe you could...idk, shatter it, in which case they lose 5 energy for casting it again.
What about thumpers? Let's see, the more we block, the more we get knocked down, and the more we dont block, the more we get knocked down. The only solution to a thumper is to blind him (oops, his boon prot just fixed that) or...i guess you could e-drain him below 2 energy every 2 seconds so he can't use his skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Haven't had a problem since the update.
As a partial test I just went to Isle of The Nameless and infused "Student of Burning " 50 times. Hit every time without a problem.
Sounds like your friend may have been making excuses.

Nice idea testing a pvp bug in a non-pvp area. Maybe try getting yourself stuck in the ground at IotN too, or trying to hit a practice dummy at the wall of a bridge.
Although I'm glad you spent those 50 infuses just for me <3

JR · Jul 24, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Try infusing in pvp for a day, see how many of them dont work.

I play monk primarily. In a standard week I probably do about 20 GvGs as a Boon Prot, 15 as a Healer with Infuse, and 5 as a blessed light as a rough average. I say again; I have not encountered the problem since the update.

shardfenix · Jul 24, 2006, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I play monk primarily. In a standard week I probably do about 20 GvGs as a Boon Prot, 15 as a Healer with Infuse, and 5 as a blessed light as a rough average. I say again; I have not encountered the problem since the update.

lucky. Maybe anet just hates me for flaming them in game and on forums :/

fb2000 · Jul 24, 2006, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

lucky. Maybe anet just hates me for flaming them in game and on forums :/

they dont seeem to be hating me even tho I flame them the fair amount oO.

personally I never ever was that afraid from bunny thumpers, if you check their bars, they never ever have a speed boost. I find it extremely easy to kite them all day long..

AoE smiters were a bit nerfed, its not like one of them can keep aoe on like 3 members all the time like before..

I dont see any difference between island of the nameless and you beloved HA or isle of something maps.. Its not like people dont get stuck on "non-pvp" maps too.. but i guess you never paid much attention, after all, why even bother.

JR-, you came back, ie, you play now and then gw?

JR · Jul 24, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by fb2000

JR-, you came back, ie, you play now and then gw?

A quick off topic summary:

- Quit largely because of my job.
- Company I work for died.
- Had loads of spare time.
- Decided I may aswell start playing again.
- Company reformed and I rejoined on the condition of friendlier working hours.

And I really don't think luck has anything to do with it, shard.

Lord Dark Genie · Jul 24, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

So the point of gvg is to have 2 teams of 8 people who run away from each other and never fight? hmm...no wonder we keep losing. We were trying to deal damage and cap flags.

How do you react to warriors pounding on you ? just tank it and do your own stuff ?
Kiting doesn't mean running back to your base, you can kite in circles. You could even snare the touchers to get some room and do your own stuff till he's at full speed again...
Maybe try using the overpowered Crip Shotter to do that.

Quote:

Maybe you should give us noobs a way to counter these builds instead of saying "you noobs should find a counter for this build" If you think it's so easy, you help us then. Touch rangers aren't a problem in gvg, my main hate on them is in the lesser arenas, RA, TA, and AB.

You were mentioning GvG...

Quote:

What's a counter for AoE smite? Energy burn them once per second to keep their energy below 1? What else can you do to aoe smite...lets see you could divert it i guess, unless the smiter has half a brain. Maybe you could...idk, shatter it, in which case they lose 5 energy for casting it again.

I agree that smiters are a bit too powerful in the sense that they are offense and defense with the same skill bar.
If you're worried about the offensive part the easiest counter is to drain the zealot's.
The defensive part is a bit more tricky, because you'd want to shut-down the boon-prots rather than a defensive smiter. That's where smiters are strong imo, they allow for a 3rd or even 4th monk.

Quote:

What about thumpers? Let's see, the more we block, the more we get knocked down, and the more we dont block, the more we get knocked down. The only solution to a thumper is to blind him (oops, his boon prot just fixed that) or...i guess you could e-drain him below 2 energy every 2 seconds so he can't use his skills.

DP the pet. Once the pet is DPed you can kill it again very easily every time you want to black the thumper out.
Boon prots removing blind ? If they can afford it, you're not doing enough damage to their team.

Divineshadows · Jul 24, 2006, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by fb2000

personally I never ever was that afraid from bunny thumpers, if you check their bars, they never ever have a speed boost. I find it extremely easy to kite them all day long..

Thumpers are extremely easy to pressure with a warrior and easier to spike out than most targets. The de facto thumper build lacks a speed boost and also lacks any defensive stance. This makes them so much easier to pressure than a witty mesmer that pre-kites you distortion. The only exception is if they are being smited off of in which case you're better off pressuring the smiter unless someone else in your build can shutdown the smiter while you toggle between frenzy and rush on the thumper's backside and bull's strike him constantly to keep your own midline and monks free from pressure.

Thumper armor is ranger armor which is the equivalent of monk's judge's armor when being pressured by a warrior with sharp or blunt objects. When designing builds, think twice before tossing a thumper in (smite is somewhat of an exception) and using this as your pressure. Would you want a monk on the frontline wielding a hammer? Obviously not. So why would you put a thumper there?

I know for a fact that some people are of the opinion that thumpers get to use tiger's fury while warriors use frenzy, which gives thumpers an edge. This is simply not true at all. A sword or axe warrior has 116 AL v physical plus damage reduction v physical. A thumper only has 70 AL v physical. A frenzied warrior has 76 AL v physical (56 AL v elemental). As long as your warriors know how to properly use frenzy to maximize their own damage while still minimizing the damage that comes at them, then the warrior is superior in every aspect for the role of damage dealing on the frontlines in GvG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

What about thumpers? Let's see, the more we block, the more we get knocked down, and the more we dont block, the more we get knocked down. The only solution to a thumper is to blind him (oops, his boon prot just fixed that) or...i guess you could e-drain him below 2 energy every 2 seconds so he can't use his skills.

This statement sounds like it is coming from a monk's perspective on a team that allowed thumpers to go wild on your monks. Perhaps you should have your team pressuring different targets instead of just having your warriors jump on their monks if you are trying to win.

Ward v melee is a very nice counter to thumpers since it affect both the ranger and the pet, but is not a subpar skill at all for any melee based offense in GvG.

Two other common skills that can help shutdown a thumper are diversion and distracting shot. Almost all thumpers spam irresistable blow on its recharge, so it is quite simple for an experienced mesmer or ranger to shutdown this skill.

I would not recommend energy denial as a effective means to trying to shutdown a thumper, because of reduced skill costs due to expertise as you have already pointed out. However, a monk with energy drain can use this to their advantage as well. If you have been kiting the thumper well, then he will almost certain have enough energy to give you a full return on energy drain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Ill admit that GvG is less abused than HA, but it's still to unbalanced to mean anything. Top 20 just means you play alot, it doesnt mean youre good.

I think your HA experiences are blinding your views on GvG. The more a guild team plays GvG, the more they can begin to understand the mistakes they make and learn from them. Top 20 are teams that have played a lot, made a lot of mistakes along the way, and learned harsh lessons from those mistakes so as not to make these same mistakes in future matches. They certainly did not get there overnight. If this does not define good, then I do not know what does.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 24, 2006, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Dark Genie

I agree that smiters are a bit too powerful in the sense that they are offense and defense with the same skill bar.
If you're worried about the offensive part the easiest counter is to drain the zealot's.
The defensive part is a bit more tricky, because you'd want to shut-down the boon-prots rather than a defensive smiter. That's where smiters are strong imo, they allow for a 3rd or even 4th monk.

I've always found this assessment a bit odd. Every offensive character is offense and defense on the same bar. A warrior can mitigate damage in the same way a smiter can by targeting enemy warriors and mesmers, forcing them to run away or sit on their ass. A Dom mesmer can mitigate damage by targeting the opposing team's mesmers. Likewise, a smiter can mitigate damage by throwing prots onto the heavily pressured members of his own team.

It seems more 'direct' than the damage mitigation another offensive character can do, but in practice it doesn't amount to that much more damage actually mitigated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineShadows

Thumpers are extremely easy to pressure with a warrior and easier to spike out than most targets. The de facto thumper build lacks a speed boost and also lacks any defensive stance. This makes them so much easier to pressure than a witty mesmer that pre-kites you distortion. The only exception is if they are being smited off of in which case you're better off pressuring the smiter unless someone else in your build can shutdown the smiter while you toggle between frenzy and rush on the thumper's backside and bull's strike him constantly to keep your own midline and monks free from pressure.

Thumper armor is ranger armor which is the equivalent of monk's judge's armor when being pressured by a warrior with sharp or blunt objects. When designing builds, think twice before tossing a thumper in (smite is somewhat of an exception) and using this as your pressure. Would you want a monk on the frontline wielding a hammer? Obviously not. So why would you put a thumper there?

Well, technically a thumper will probably run +stance armor, so they're really going to be 80 AL most of the time. Regardless, you're right that they are a lot more spikeable than standard builds.

Honestly I don't see much reason to run a Thumper since the pet DP nerf. They're just too unreliable against too many kinds of builds. AoE effects or Taints will slaughter their pets within the first couple minutes of the match and you'll either be stuck as a subpar hammer warrior or be constantly blacked out and spending energy on resses.

Divineshadows · Jul 24, 2006, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Every offensive character is offense and defense on the same bar. A warrior can mitigate damage in the same way a smiter can by targeting enemy warriors and mesmers, forcing them to run away or sit on their ass. A Dom mesmer can mitigate damage by targeting the opposing team's mesmers.

100% agree that every non-monk character can use their bar offensively or defensively. The players that are very observant and do not bind themselves to a very specific task or function 100% of the time are the ones that I see having the most success in PvP in general.

Even a monk can take some offensive actions in a match by placing prot spirit on their warrior against a team with little to no enchantment removal to allow their warrior to more freely frenzy and hence boosting the offense of the team and gaining initiative. Or perhaps the monk finds themselves with a bit of downtime where they don't need to heal, reposition themselves, or kite and notices an opponent using distortion or a trapper using mantra of resolve. Wanding said player is an offensive move that helps energy deny the opposition. Energy drain, drain enchantment, and power drain are all skills that in the hands of a skilled monk can be used both offensively and defensively at the same time.

Zui · Jul 24, 2006, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Dark Genie

How do you react to warriors pounding on you ? just tank it and do your own stuff ?

Call for a Healing Seed, of course. Then call your monks noobs. Repeat until 60% DP. Rage once you're at 60% DP. Come to GWGuru and let everyone know how overpowered what you lost to was, and how the other team had absolutly no skill.

Helll is for Heroes · Jul 24, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderpower

The domination of nr, qz, tranq, edge and whatever skills should be stopped. It's been going on for a long time now. And I think we had enough.

Just hit them with your axe...

art_ · Jul 25, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58

On the infuse health issue i've had infusers who I trust and have no reason to lie to me insist that the skill is still bugged.

dgb · Jul 25, 2006, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I play monk primarily. In a standard week I probably do about 20 GvGs as a Boon Prot, 15 as a Healer with Infuse, and 5 as a blessed light as a rough average. I say again; I have not encountered the problem since the update.

I play a character with infuse on their bar reasonably frequently and I can back this experience up - haven't had one fizzle since the update.

shardfenix · Jul 25, 2006, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by fb2000

I dont see any difference between island of the nameless and you beloved HA or isle of something maps.. Its not like people dont get stuck on "non-pvp" maps too.. but i guess you never paid much attention, after all, why even bother.

You're right. There is absolutely no difference between isle of the nameless and HA maps. They look the same, have the same name, have the same walkmeshes, and the same stuff happens there. I guess I was wrong all this time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Dark Genie

Kiting doesn't mean running back to your base, you can kite in circles. You could even snare the touchers to get some room and do your own stuff till he's at full speed again

You said the options were kite or die. Don't criticize my criticisms on your...incorrect statements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Dark Genie

You were mentioning Gvg

No, YOU were mentioning gvgs, I was mentioning all the broken builds there are, for any pvp play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Dark Genie

If you're worried about the offensive part the easiest counter is to drain the zealot's.

Which is easy to do since they cover it with aegis or guardian, and since it only has 30 second recharge. Once you drain zealots, all it really does is make them boon prots with infinite energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Dark Genie

DP the pet. Once the pet is DPed you can kill it again very easily every time you want to black the thumper out.

Killing a pet doesn't always blackout its master. There is a built in "safe time" after a pet resses, and there's a bug that randomly prevents blackout on pet death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

This statement sounds like it is coming from a monk's perspective on a team that allowed thumpers to go wild on your monks. Perhaps you should have your team pressuring different targets instead of just having your warriors jump on their monks if you are trying to win.

Balance groups I play with often have 3 damage dealers, 12 for monks, the other for whatever is screwing our team. The thing about thump smite is...you cant kill them. Not only are they near invincible, they also have a glowing aura of pwnage dealing 50dps to everything that walks by them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Ward v melee is a very nice counter to thumpers since it affect both the ranger and the pet, but is not a subpar skill at all for any melee based offense in GvG.

Ward melee is good against irresistable blow...explain this concept to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

I would not recommend energy denial as a effective means to trying to shutdown a thumper, because of reduced skill costs due to expertise as you have already pointed out. However, a monk with energy drain can use this to their advantage as well. If you have been kiting the thumper well, then he will almost certain have enough energy to give you a full return on energy drain.

First, I just have to say that if your monk is using energy drain to shut down a thumper instead of gaining energy, you need to find a new monk.
Second, irresistable costs 3 energy, which isn't hard for a thumper to get because of his equivalent +3 energy regen via Ferocious Strike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

I think your HA experiences are blinding your views on GvG.

My HA experiences have little to no bearing on my GvG views. You are forgetting that I've helped guilds get to top 100. I don't have as much experience as players in iQ, WM, or MH, but I know enough about gvg to have valid opinions.

Jagan Vastary · Jul 25, 2006, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

You said the options were kite or die. Don't criticize my criticisms on your...incorrect statements.

You don't understand what kiting means, how is this the other guys fault?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

No, YOU were mentioning gvgs, I was mentioning all the broken builds there are, for any pvp play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Right. GvG has all real builds, like touchers, thumpers, shock assassins, smiters, cripshot rangers, all those are balanced for sure [/sarcasm]

Self owned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Once you drain zealots, all it really does is make them boon prots with infinite energy.

Except, you know, for the boon. Really they are subpar active prots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Ward v melee is a very nice counter to thumpers since it affect both the ranger and the pet, but is not a subpar skill at all for any melee based offense in GvG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Ward melee is good against irresistable blow...explain this concept to me.

He said Ward vs melee is good against thumpers. Now, if irresistable blow didn't have a recharge, then maybe you would have a point here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

First, I just have to say that if your monk is using energy drain to shut down a thumper instead of gaining energy, you need to find a new monk.

Last time I checked, e-drain drains energy and gives it to you. Think of your e-drain as taking away 2-3 irresistable blows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Second, irresistable costs 3 energy, which isn't hard for a thumper to get because of his equivalent +3 energy regen via Ferocious Strike.

Where do you get that number? 3 pips for Ferocious strike? At 16 BM, it is 5 net energy every 8 seconds(according to GuildWiki), assuming the pet attack hits right away, which it most likely won't.