Curse

Lando Griffen · Jul 12, 2006, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Here's an idea, if an opposing team's spirit's are hurting you, kill them. If they somehow keep popping up, stop the spammer. Whether spirits are fun to play with or not, the game is balanced. People seem to have the mentality that if anything is a counter to the build they like to run, it needs a nerf. Sometimes things are unbalanced, anet isn't perfect, and yes, there are some builds that are easier to play with similar results because their roles are clearly defined, but complaining about it isn't going to help you win. Every build has a counter, maybe if anet wanted to give a holding build the ability to hold forever, they'd nerf things like eoe. Personally, I like the fact that there is no one build that can absolutly dominate halls. The game is free to play, and considering that, it's pretty damn good. Maybe anet should nerf complainers. I'm just saying, maybe you should make a free online game and perfect every aspect of it, but the thing is, no matter what you do, someone is going to complain about it, infact, that's the way life is in general. I don't think this has anything to do with profit for anet, they'd just rather appeal to the majority of people that play their game. It's funny how there are so many people that talk about how bad it is, but they continue to waste months of their lives on it. Anyway, sorry if this seems like an attack against you personally, I'd just rather see people play the game and have fun instead of taking it so seriously.

Byron · Jul 12, 2006, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Even though I'm not very serious about HA play, there are some obvious counters to the gimmicky spirit-spamming play that don't seem to be considered seriously. For example, almost every team brings an oath shot; counter would be signet of humility. Choking gas is already a celebrated build in HA, and it annihilates ritualists.

But I'm beating a dead horse - only the best HA teams seem to consider the status of the game when designing builds.

Greedy Gus · Jul 12, 2006, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Choking gas is already a celebrated build in HA, and it annihilates ritualists.

But I'm beating a dead horse - only the best HA teams seem to consider the status of the game when designing builds.

The best HA teams probably know that choking gas won't interrupt spirits.

Byron · Jul 12, 2006, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

The best HA teams probably know that choking gas won't interrupt spirits.

The build, not the skill itself - bad wording on my part, maybe? Rt/R has no defense (save for walls) against a savage shot.

zoozoc · Jul 12, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe4rty

shields only effect the front, not the back, etc.

Shields are no conditional, it is global, no matter where you are hit you get that +armor. It still amazes me how many people don't simply take 3 minutes to test something.

Rieselle · Jul 12, 2006, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe4rty

Theres already mechanics like that. IE, height matters and changes probability of what armor piece is hit, hitting the back of a runner is a crit, shields only effect the front, not the back, etc.

The effects that exist now are too subtle and dont affect how head-on battles function. Also they are crippled by other game mechanics/level design.

Height matters -> most pvp maps are fairly flat. Esp. HA.

Which armour piece is hit -> The armour pieces are pretty much all the same. (ie. head has same AL as chest)

Crits on back/sides of runner -> Good, but mostly applies to meleers, and not much use in a close-range head-on fight, especially vs. something like caster spike. (given that when they're casting, they are stationary.)

The shield thing would have been nice if it worked, but generally only warriors use shields, so it's mostly a moot point.

So yeah, there's stuff there, but it's doesnt make enough of a difference.

I'd probably revise my suggestion to something like this:

Attacks and Projectile spells do 100% damage from the front, 150% damage from the sides, and 200% damage from the rear. This modifier is applied LAST, so that it occurs after Prot Spirit, etc. This modifier does not apply to knocked-down targets. They receive normal damage from any direction.

Crits for running/strafing still apply. So hitting someone running away from you in the back will do a crit x 200% damage. Maybe then people will have a good reason to backstep, hmm?

This doesnt exactly solve the problem of spirits, I guess, if there even is a problem. I wont comment too much since I'm not an expert on HA, but the idea is that, if you can do a "mini split" and attack them from 2 different directions, you'll have a offensive advantage, while they have to stay somewhat together to take advantage of their spirits.

This also doesnt solve the problem of ranger spirits very much. If they are designed to operate under a ranger spirit, and you are not, then there's not much you can do about it. The point of my suggestion then is, if your team outmaneuver them on the micro level, the bonuses you get from flanking, attacking certain people from behind, etc might outweigh any build advantage they have. Thus, "skill"ful maneuvering will allow you victory.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 12, 2006, 09:00 AM // 09:00

The biggest problem I have with the ritualist is that it's basically limited to two possible builds, and even those two builds have only a couple skills difference. I can't remember ever seeing a serious GvG team run a Ritualist with something other than the standard Shelter + Union + a couple other spirits, backed up by Ritual Lord or Soul Twisting. No other build has been run from any length of time that I've seen. This isn't the basis for a balanced class.

The other problem is that, as detailed above, ritualist spirits in GvG greatly increase the power of a defense while being untouchable based on the map. On something like the fire map you can hide your ritualist well behind your team and be immune to almost any spirit counters, while greatly increasing the defense of your team.

The problem is, Ritualists also make an incredibly contribution to the defense, making the entire team nearly unspikeable and massively reducing pressure. No other single support character creates anywhere near the kind of effect a ritualist does. A blindbot with wards is probably the closest thing, and a warder is far less effective and easier to kill than a ritualist.

Rits in GvG are both borderline overpowered and completely one-dimensional - which is kind of a shame, IMO.

Rieselle · Jul 12, 2006, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The biggest problem I have with the ritualist is that it's basically limited to two possible builds, and even those two builds have only a couple skills difference. I can't remember ever seeing a serious GvG team run a Ritualist with something other than the standard Shelter + Union + a couple other spirits, backed up by Ritual Lord or Soul Twisting. No other build has been run from any length of time that I've seen. This isn't the basis for a balanced class.

Rits in GvG are both borderline overpowered and completely one-dimensional - which is kind of a shame, IMO.

I think a big problem is that Rits can keep up a spirit's effect forever by replacing it over and over with Ritual Lord / Soul Twisting. I would have been happier if the duration on spirits was longer allowing them to be kept up indefinitely, and the health loss when they apply is a lot less, but it's not possible to flush and replace them that easily. Thus fighting a group entrenched in spirits (with no way to split and force them to move) would be a battle of attrition, wearing down the spirits until they self destruct, and then charging in and fighting during the period before they can put the spirits back up.

Alternatively, they could introduce a mechanic where, if you cast a spirit when the spirit already exists, then the old spirit is moved to the new location, has its duration reset, and gets a small heal INSTEAD of starting at full health again.

It might also be interesting if Spirits have a negative effect if they are killed/self destruct (as opposed to their duration ending naturally). So if you can destroy a Rit spirit, then enemies who were under its effect suddenly all lose 20% health or something.

suiraCLAW · Jul 12, 2006, 09:34 AM // 09:34

@ Wasteland Squidget, the problem is: how do you want to change that?

For these spirits problems I can only find 3 solutions:
- Nerfing Ritual lord/Oath shot/Soul twisting, but this would make ritualists completely useless in PvP (unless a small nerf).
- Nerfing the spirits, but again: it would make rits pretty useless in pvp (unless a small nerf).
- Buffing spirits counters, wich is quite hard.

In my opinion we would need these 3 things at the same time. Some things that may make rits and rangers more balanced:
nerfs:
- Rit lord = 2 cast time
- Oath Shot = Half normal range (so that you have enough time to cast things like Wail of Doom, sig of humility, blinding flash etc).
- Union = can contain max of 16 "streaks" (in place of 24)
- Shelter = can contain max of 16 "streaks" (in place of 24)

buffs:
- Unnatural Signet -> 1/4 cast time or no aftercast (but this may make it too popular for spike teams)
- Spirit Walk -> increase range
- Draw Spirit -> can target every spirit (my favorite)
- Huge buffs for the other Rit elites (wrote some here)

Rieselle · Jul 12, 2006, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

- Spirit Walk -> increase range

Actually I've often thought it would be nice if Glyph of Elemental power also increases the range of Ele spells. Then something like Firestorm might be handy to break up spirits, ward campers and other stationary groups at long range.

It'd be cool if Eles became the long-range artillery in GW :P

Thom Bangalter · Jul 12, 2006, 09:43 AM // 09:43

um...when I spirit spam and i'm up against a team with a rit, I just follow him all game, savage shotting whatever is nasty and oath shotting off of him when appropriate. one solid interrupter can totally 'balance' this. and like someone else said, the objectives and maps are what make spirits so good, not the spirits themselves. it's not like you see a ton of spirits in gvg, just because they're completely different.

HoH map nerf is what I want.

The Primeval King · Jul 14, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Spirits are a part of the game. Balancing them would be like redoing all hexes or stances. If you want a good team you should have a few spirits on your side, just like you should have some hexes and heals.

Former Ruling · Jul 14, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Height matters -> most pvp maps are fairly flat. Esp. HA.

GW is actually very flawed in its Terrian height sensering.

"Height" is only an influence for Projectiles (like firing on top of a hill down on someone is better, etc), and that influence is often debated.

Height has no other logical use in the game. The game doesn't even reconize height for the most part. A Warrior can be at the bottom of a cliff, and a person/monster be at the edge of the top of the cliff, and the warrior can HIT the person/monster liek it were stnading in front of him (the game doesn't reconize that the person/monster is higher than the warrior) and then theres the age old thing about Traps getting setoff in relation to Bridges. They can set them UNDER the bridge, and if you go over the bridge you set them off..Even though you several feet over them.

Izzy responded to this saying it isn't something that skill fixers can really fix because it isnt a flaw in traps or anything, its a fundamental Programming Error deep rooted in the games code.

comonnow · Jul 14, 2006, 08:21 PM // 20:21

I think its funny that people are complaining about spirits... EoE isnt that big a deal fyi, just kill it. and about NR/Tranq, just run without enchants, problem solved and thats what all the other decent teams are doing (including the monks). I cant believe this is being complained about.

What they need to nerf is that stupid Sould Barbs Recurring Insecurity build. SBRI is either broken or clearly overpowered and imo something needs to be done.

Lando Griffen · Jul 14, 2006, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Just a suggestion to help counter nr/tranquility builds: the monk using the most enchantments is the prot monk, but if you haven't noticed lately there are a couple of new classes. One of them has skills that have similar effects to protection enchantments, but they affect the whole team

. Not to mention, weapon of warding is nice skill that can't be stripped. Ritualists have great protection spirits and a small amount of healing. I've seen plenty of good groups running 2 monks and a ritualist, they seem to be doing pretty well.

Mr Fizzle · Jul 15, 2006, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Spirits are quite annoying,we just need a better way to take them out without having to set off a dust trap run back get a Restore Conditions run back..Woops he spammed it somewhere else and his ranger buddy put his traps on it too let me run back to the RC.

I think there should just be better and quicker ways to take them out from a distance without having to overextend and then be pummeled.Maybe Signet of ?(mesmer signet) instantly kills a spirit?I dunno but I tried Consume Soul in HA worked decently,but we were running a adreline spike not a pressure build so we had 2 W/E's not 1 so we had more choices.

Over a regular 2 mesmer 1 war 1 fire ele,1 E/Mo warder type build.That some PUG's like to use.

Zui · Jul 15, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Mr Fizzle, try "Unnatural Signet" in the Mesmer Domination line...

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 15, 2006, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

@ Wasteland Squidget, the problem is: how do you want to change that?

The simple answer is nerfing spirit range a bit. The biggest problem with spirits currently is that you can be a perfectly effective spirit spammer while sitting back with tons of NPC defense. There are pleny of skills that can be used to counter the massive defense spirits provide, but none of them are going to work if you can't ever get within range of the spirit spammer without being far overextended.

A more complex solution would involve changing the way spirits work so that they are world enchantments rather than objects you can destroy. Then skills could be added which counter or remove world enchantments, in the same way you can counter or remove enchantments now.

Byron · Jul 15, 2006, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

There are pleny of skills that can be used to counter the massive defense spirits provide, but none of them are going to work if you can't ever get within range of the spirit spammer without being far overextended.

/agree. To be fair, the spirits need to be reduced in range to at most a normal aggro circle IMHO. I can't think of a logical reason for it to be otherwise; to get to the ritualist, the team needs to push forward, but the spirits boost the defense of the enemy team, which severly inhibits offensive power. You're definitely fighting a losing battle under those circumstances. Splitting is a possibility, assuming the map is large enough to maneuver around the enormous aoe spirits have. A stationary defense shouldn't be so powerful in a PvP game that otherwise demands flexibility.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 15, 2006, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Splitting is definitely a valid tactic against ritualists - a single ritualist and a monk can easily keep the GL NPCs alive against a 4-man offense. However, this limits their defensive team's ability to control the flag, so if you can get a flag capped and beat up their runner as their defensive team moves out the rit won't have much time to lay spirits effectively along the run. Splitting is a very effective tactic against rits.

However, is there any other single character that you can plug into a build to make fighting unviable or an uphill battle? Obviously some teams can pressure through a rit, but it largely comes down to build - a degen or energy denial team won't care as much, but a warrior spike will be crippled and completely unable to get kills.

In short, Rits force much more reaction than any other defensive character, and that's a problem IMHO.