Curse

cookiemonkie · Jul 11, 2006, 05:13 AM // 05:13

The reason I don't bother with HA anymore. Really spirit hunting gets old and with ritualist spirits its even worse. Spirit range has always been a bit too large, vs any decent team good look getting in range of the spirits or taking them down fast enough. The toolset given by Anet to counter these spirits don't account for the range advantage of the spirits. So yes I agree, spirits are a little bit too good. But not as good as ghostly spirit interrupts and body blocking the ghostly.

Considering everything else that is useless for pvp, don't expect any changes. You'll just have to find another game when it comes out and cross your fingers.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 11, 2006, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

I'd like to say that as a matter of principle I hate spirits. Balance set aside, I don't think they add any fun to the game and thus shouldn't be there. Playing a Spirit Spammer is boring and doesn't take much skill and playing against them is just frustrating.

I kind of like the idea of effects which change the battlefield, but in practice I tend to agree with you. My biggest issue is that the counter to spirits is hitting them, since that requires constant attention and brings in all kinds of issues.

I'd rather see 'spirit' objects removed entirely and keep the spirits with the type "global effect." Then have skills which can remove or modify global effects. This removes the invulnerable spirit spammer in the backline and would increase the range of counters significantly. The downside is, it's one more thing to fit into a build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

As for balance I have to agree that the current Ritual Lord spirit spammer build is a little too good. It offers very solid defense in an area that you can't get to easily (behind their backline).

In GvG I agree, but in HA (and Hall of Heros specifically) there is no backline to speak of, and very few places where a warrior can't go within aggro range.

If your build is based around any kind of spike (even an adrenal one), a ritualist forces an incredible amount of offense and shutdown. It's the only single character that forces a lot of builds to split. In general GvG rit spirit spammers are extremely powerful characters - not necessarily overpowered, but at the top of the food chain as far as defensive builds go.

Patrograd · Jul 11, 2006, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I haven't personally tested this, but according to Warskull in the other thread the description is incorrect. Target yourself with Consume Soul and you'll destroy the nearest spirit in aggro range without actually moving to it.

Soul twisting works in this way for allied spirits so i would assume this is correct

Thom · Jul 11, 2006, 08:58 AM // 08:58

The problem isn't skill balance it is Hero's ascent. Spirits force you to fight on the oppoents terms which is a great way to control the battle. I feel it adds an interesting element to the game. When facing spirits, my guild team will simply move the battle away from the spirits. No matter what type of spirits you are facing, good movement can give you an edge. The problem is that in HA there is normally 0-1 major control points, therefore movement is largely a defensive strategy.

If you don't get what I'm saying, think about using spirits in alliance battles. If you set up enough spirits to shape the battle your targets will be happily running off to the next control point or spiking out your spirit spammer. It is the slow plodding pace of HA along with the lack of room for movement which makes things wonderful for spirit spammers. HA was poorly designed in my mind and the new guild halls, alliance battle maps and even arena maps demonstate that Anet recognizes this and is shifting philosophy.

cookiemonkie · Jul 11, 2006, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

If you don't get what I'm saying, think about using spirits in alliance battles. If you set up enough spirits to shape the battle your targets will be happily running off to the next control point or spiking out your spirit spammer. It is the slow plodding pace of HA along with the lack of room for movement which makes things wonderful for spirit spammers. HA was poorly designed in my mind and the new guild halls, alliance battle maps and even arena maps demonstate that Anet recognizes this and is shifting philosophy.

I wouldn't consider Jade Quary and Imperial Isle that. Spirit shitting wouldn't be an issue if there were skills that would directly counter them at the SAME rediculously large range that spirits are at. Thats what game balance is supposed to be. If there is a skill, there should be an equalizer which the original poster is getting at. If ANET can't change HA maps thats fine, well then change the range of spirits or buff the skills directly attack spirits to give it the range that spirits employ.

The hide behind the backline on the edge of opponents radar screen shitting spirits game is quite silly, and no that isn't a game of skill, its just rediculous. Bring the ranges of the skills and counters into balance.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Jul 11, 2006, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Vindexus' Law states that:
As a user continues to disagree with the rules of their environment, their probability of being called a whiner approaches one.

Excellent law.

Sir Mad · Jul 11, 2006, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riken Chrono

Find a way to counter those builds and other builds that you might play against the same time.

Quoted for truth.

How to counter a spirit:

1/ press Ctrl
2/ find the annoying spirit
3/ press space or the relevant 1-8 key

Alternative method:

1/ press Tab until you find a ranger
2/ check his skills, if he's shitting a spirit, he's the one guy
3/ send a mesmer, a spike, Leeroy Jenkins, or anything who can teach him he shouldn't shit spirits in the Hall of Heroes. That's disrespectful.

Spirits have generally a recharge time of 60 secs. Too fast for you?

Oath shot is the way to decrese the recharge time. Oath Shot recharges in 20 secs

Spirits are max lvl 11. Do you have hard time killing a lvl 11 thingy?

Spirits affects everybody in the area.

Conclusion:

Please, ANET, nerf the BBs, not the spirits!

cookiemonkie · Jul 11, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

Excellent law.

Rather than diplomatic non-sense, justify why HA isn't considered a joke and why spirit spamming and spirit range isn't out of balance which was brought up by the original poster. Any decent team will protect their spirit spammer and have them spam spirits in the far back line since the ranges allow it. If you think you can just c-space your way in there, yeah go ahead and get yourself and your prot monk killed. Thats what they want, an over-extension to get to the spirits.

As to the "whinning nonsense"... In that case why don't we reset the game back to how it orginally was with Ether Renewal. Multiple spirit copies etc, and then make the argument again that every skill has a counter (even if it is unrealistic, you can still diplomacize it as a counter right? Of course according to some people here) and that we have nothing but whiners in this game and that ANET got the game balanced perfect as is. There is no need for balance changes, game is perfect as is....

Yeah it'll never be balanced to everyones liking, but when its unreasonable, yep its non-sense. People will want changes, or find another game. This isn't basketball or football, it won't be around forever and if ANET doesn't respond to the majority of people's complaints regarding the game balance then don't expect the game to be around for long either.

Lykan · Jul 11, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

Quoted for truth.

How to counter a spirit:

1/ press Ctrl
2/ find the annoying spirit
3/ press space or the relevant 1-8 key

Alternative method:

1/ press Tab until you find a ranger
2/ check his skills, if he's shitting a spirit, he's the one guy
3/ send a mesmer, a spike, Leeroy Jenkins, or anything who can teach him he shouldn't shit spirits in the Hall of Heroes. That's disrespectful.

Spirits have generally a recharge time of 60 secs. Too fast for you?

Have you read any of the other posts?

Yes spirits are easy to kill but its finding away to kill these spirits without putting yourself or other teammates at risk while doing so, sure you could run off into enemy lines thru 6 or seven traps or into a spike to kill spirits.
It wont get your team very far though. Spirit range needs a nerf.

Divinus Stella · Jul 11, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Well, un-natural signet is a joke, any team with with half a brain can put a stop to un-natural signet mesmers, to kill a spirit it takes 3-4 hits with a 1second signet and against a spirit spamming build you would only be able to take the spirits down as fast as they are being put down at best, most of the time there is way too many, all you need to do is knock down/interrupt the mesmer and his signet is down for another 45(?) seconds which is pretty easy considering the mesmer has to stand there constantly using the signet.
Also the range is the signet is fairly low so you still have to overextend to reach it. hardly a counter to a team with 3 spirit spammers.

Sending a warrior in is a bad idea, spirit spammers can be back far enough from caster interrupts and ranger interrupts are extremely bad against ritualists in HA as theres usually a couple of spots per map where you cannot be hit by arrows at all, theres one in dark chambers i think, just near the bridge which a rit can happily sit in and be safe from arrows.

JR · Jul 11, 2006, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

As stated above, that's a problem with HA. It encourages people to run as many overused gimmicks as they can in order to farm fame as fast as possible.

Quoted for truth.

You want serious PvP? GvG.

Due to the nature of HA it simply encourages gimmick builds, because of the broken Fame mechanic. Thus rank means progressively less and less, so people farm harder to get higher ranked in the hope that it will count for something. It doesn't.

I watch games daily on Observer Mode; and recently I have been actually watching some of the HoH battles. I wont go into giving names, but let me just say that one of the well respected HoH guilds is genuinely terrible. I saw their WoH healer run around for 30 seconds whilst team mates died, then stand in a Dust Trap and cast Seed on someone. The Warriors seemed to be completely ignorant of low targets, ignoring easy kills. The Mesmers were shutting down the wrong people. The Ranger couldn't hit a 1 second cast to save his life... And these problems occurred again and again over a number of matches.

I don't mean to rant about this, but the level of play in HA is so pathetically bad it's hard to take threads like this seriously.

thunderpower · Jul 11, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Quoted for truth.

You want serious PvP? GvG.

Due to the nature of HA it simply encourages gimmick builds, because of the broken Fame mechanic. Thus rank means progressively less and less, so people farm harder to get higher ranked in the hope that it will count for something. It doesn't.

I watch games daily on Observer Mode; and recently I have been actually watching some of the HoH battles. I wont go into giving names, but let me just say that one of the well respected HoH guilds is genuinely terrible. I saw their WoH healer run around for 30 seconds whilst team mates died, then stand in a Dust Trap and cast Seed on someone. The Warriors seemed to be completely ignorant of low targets, ignoring easy kills. The Mesmers were shutting down the wrong people. The Ranger couldn't hit a 1 second cast to save his life... And these problems occurred again and again over a number of matches.

I don't mean to rant about this, but the level of play in HA is so pathetically bad it's hard to take threads like this seriously.

True. But HA is a part of the game, a major game mechanism involvin pve and pve is based on Hall victories. It's not like HA is the secret hobby horse of only 2000-3000 players.
And spirit builds screw things up around there, you gotta admit that.
As my much respected friend, ex gw-harcore player, said "do you want a counter versus lame builds? play lamme builds".

I want to enjoy the game, and HA is more appeling for me than GvG for some reason. So why support only one part of the pvp players with prompt skill rebalance?

HA pvp players don't have tournaments, world championship, real life rewards, etc... as GvG players have. We just have the game to enjoy. And let me tell you it's nothing much to enjoy. And some spirit builds creeped their way into GvG (FoC for ex). Of course, the strategy vs these builds in GvG is diffrent, but still.

After a while it makes you think. What anet really wants? Top, skill based gameplay in GvG and anything but skill based gameplay in HA.

Just a fact, for hexes you have hex removal, for enchants enchant removals,etc...
For traps you have ... time to wait for them to go off. For spirits the same stuff, no direct counter. Maybe the Consume Soul now, but with a flawed decription, working better than described I guess. But the general idea is that from the begining you didn't have anything directly related to cope with spirits.

And I don't know what Anet is thinking. The flawed spirit system was discovered before anything else. Spirit spamming was almost the first FOTM build that used a design flaw of spirits to annoy others.

And the prob is that combined with rehcrage tricks (oath shot) a ranger can spam with low energy cost all the spirits in his skillbar in less than 20 sec. Oath shot and repeat. Combined with a kite strategy, it's just ... Umm... Frustrating.

suiraCLAW · Jul 11, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

You want serious PvP?

I always found that TA is by far the most balanced PvP area in the game.

Back on topic: Keep in mind that a ranger spirit spammer always need to get in aggro range to use oath shot (longbow/flatbow isn't an option because of strafing), a moment where you should be able to shut him down (or prevent the use of oath shot). Ritualist spirit spammers are more difficult, but their spirits are less powerful in general.

Celab · Jul 11, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chooby

Ritualists have skills that can destroy spirits, assassins have spirit walk, mesmers have unnatural signet, so there are many different ways to actually counter them. Run a mesmer in your build with Unnatural signet and high domination magic, run some kind of domination mesmer and your all set to destroy all the spirits you want. Theres 1 of MANY solutions off the top of my head, happy?

Ritulists usually are in the backlines, if they get close, they die

Assassins have to shadow walk to it, which is only the size of the agro bubble now to a nerf to sins

mesmers are like rits, have to be close

And dont forget, spirit spammers are way back, so all of those counters are useless.

Phades · Jul 11, 2006, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Soul twisting works in this way for allied spirits so i would assume this is correct

I would call this behavior a bug, since all of the "target" spirit skills under the rit lines act like this. For instance, you can target anything with siphon spirit and it will drain energy from the spirit closest to you. However, if you target something that is outside of the range from what is targeted to a spirit within range of yourself, the skill will auto fail. I havent played with spirit walk, but it does make me wonder if you target someone on the opposing side that has a spirit in his range, if it would teleport you to that spirit instead.

Divineshadows · Jul 11, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderpower

True. But HA is a part of the game, a major game mechanism involvin pve and pve is based on Hall victories. It's not like HA is the secret hobby horse of only 2000-3000 players.
And spirit builds screw things up around there, you gotta admit that.
As my much respected friend, ex gw-harcore player, said "do you want a counter versus lame builds? play lamme builds".

I want to enjoy the game, and HA is more appeling for me than GvG for some reason. So why support only one part of the pvp players with prompt skill rebalance?

I know its been said before, but what would need to be done to balance HA is to fix the maps to add control points or re-work the objectives on all the maps (most importantly Hall of Heroes) to induce movement and better formations. If Arena net actually tried to balance HA by skill rebalancing, then the game as a whole would be worse. The reason is that attempting to skill rebalance for GvG and HA would be too polarized and neither would end up balanced. The current state of GvG and skill balance is a far greater problem for the game at the moment than skill balance in HA. My idea for support of HA is to make the maps not suck and the objectives not suck.

If spirit range was reduced or the recharge on oath shot was increased for instance, then it would make these skills (spirits and oath shot) even less playable for GvG than they already are.

As it is today, several of the HA maps (those without altars) allow for intelligent teams to make use of movement and positioning. I remember when I used to be an HA junkie on my infuse monk, I used to order my team to feign rush an IWAY team to force them to put up their spirits on a far side of the map and then fall back out of their spirit range. This also bought our interrupters a chance to interrupt the spirit laying when they tried to bring their spirits upward.

Zui · Jul 11, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I don't mean to rant about this, but the level of play in HA is so pathetically bad it's hard to take threads like this seriously.

QFT.RED ENGINE GO

TheOneMephisto · Jul 12, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

I know its been said before, but what would need to be done to balance HA is to fix the maps to add control points or re-work the objectives on all the maps (most importantly Hall of Heroes) to induce movement and better formations.

QFT. They need to add something like multiple control points + larger maps or something.

Rieselle · Jul 12, 2006, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

QFT. They need to add something like multiple control points + larger maps or something.

I think the deeper problem is, the mechanics for close-range, head-on fights in GW are pretty shallow. They could work around the issue by making sure all the maps allow you to avoid head-on fights via large-scale movement, but it would be nice if they eventually did something to make close-range fights more tactical.

Even simple rule changes like, "If you are hit from behind (whether moving or standing still) with an attack or projectile spell, you will suffer double damage" could add a lot of complexity to a close-range battle.

Suddenly formation, where people stand in relation to each other, attacking targets of opportunity become more important, and skillful teams with good situational awareness can take advantage of this.

qwe4rty · Jul 12, 2006, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Theres already mechanics like that. IE, height matters and changes probability of what armor piece is hit, hitting the back of a runner is a crit, shields only effect the front, not the back, etc.