Curse

thunderpower · Jul 10, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

This thread regards pvp, so those who don't like pvp or think it's not important please stop reading here.

I think Anet should put an end to all the BS and give us a real skill balance.
And by real skill balance i mean doing something to ranger and the spirits.

Anet!!! Don't think that we are blind or stupid. The domination of nr, qz, tranq, edge and whatever skills should be stopped. It's been going on for a long time now. And I think we had enough.

Beside making honestly earned rank mostly useless these FOTM spirit builds make us quit the game, just because it's starting to be uterly boring.

I know Anet, profit above all!!! Right? So it's more important and more profitable to keep these id***ts who play the spirits builds than to keep players who want a skilled game. Good choice.

This new observer mode (hoh games always shown) makes it more than obvious what's going on.
A friend of mine logged in after 3 month, looked at hoh matches in observer mode and said
"It's the same sh..t than 3 and 6 month ago." The rest is just some nice remarks on the level of intelligence of Anet crew

So Anet. Wanna give us a skills balance or not? And no BS as before.

Riken Chrono · Jul 10, 2006, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Find a way to counter those builds and other builds that you might play against the same time.

twicky_kid · Jul 10, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Even if you found a way to counter these it won't stop them. HA is very confined and spirits take full advantage of this.

Until the maps and objectives change HA won't change. The maps have more of an influence of what is ran than anything else.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Jul 10, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

I believe there are quite a few ways to counter spirit builds. The fact that the Hall frequently changes hands is evidence enough of this.

Divinus Stella · Jul 10, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

100% agree with the OP, spirits are a problem in pvp atm, dont bother saying shit like "counter them zOMG!", id like to see some actual counters put forward.

Killing a spirit isnt as easy against a good team, they are usually in the backlines of teams, and trapped so a warrior needs to overextend, usually resulting in death or the death of the RC prot that over extends after him, the range of spirits is too high, you cant afford to interrupt them as unless the spirit spammer is very close and your running PD its hard especially with oathshot recharging them, most counters require you to be in range of the spirit spammer and that just isnt an option against most teams.
Also say the spirit was taken down, itll be back up again in 20 seconds unless you kill/shutdown the spirit spammer which is easier said than done, usually by the time the spirit spammer is down, then rest of the enemy team is down too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

I believe there are quite a few ways to counter spirit builds. The fact that the Hall frequently changes hands is evidence enough of this.

The reason halls changes hands at all is down to EoE and ganking, EOE being the main threat to any holding build.

Chooby · Jul 10, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

I'll just point out the fact that these spirits USED TO be stronger, ever heard of spirit spam? Pack bars of spirits, spam them, stand there and kill the other team weeeeee, spirit spammers win! At least the spirits didnt get nerfed into oblivion, like ether renewal. NR USED TO remove all hexes/enchants, they nerfed it to make it so they take longer to cast, stop whinging about it, if they nerf them again, they will be so useless nobody will use them.

EoE is only any use if you use it well
NR and Tranq work well together, get over the fact, get some good monks that can heal without using a million enchantments.
QZ is just funny
Fertile can be dealt with, just put somebody on their spirit spammer, they can be stopped.

Look at it this way, if theres 1 person spamming spirits, kill them, then you wont have to deal with the spirits :O. Amazing isn't it?

Ristaron · Jul 10, 2006, 11:33 PM // 23:33

I'd challenge you people who mindlessly blow it off with a 'counter them' to actually propose counters, rather than being beuracratic spammers solving problems with the fewest words possible.
Unless you post an actual solution, you have no right to argue the OP's point.

makosi · Jul 10, 2006, 11:33 PM // 23:33

I have to agree. I don't PvP anymore but I do observe HoH and the dominance of spirit-strong teams (i.e. IWAY) alerts me to the power of ranger spirits. The small area makes it an ideal location for dropping spirits because you have to be near the altar, especially in the last couple of minutes.

NR and tranquility is a nightmare for monks using Healing Seed and other long-cast enchantments.

People will say that you need to learn to counter them but all I can think of is Unnatural Signet or a spirit-seeker. Let's face it, there's a lot of things to priorotize in HoH matches and hunting spirit spammers can't always be the first.

Chooby · Jul 10, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

I'd challenge you people who mindlessly blow it off with a 'counter them' to actually propose counters, rather than being beuracratic spammers solving problems with the fewest words possible.
Unless you post an actual solution, you have no right to argue the OP's point.

Ritualists have skills that can destroy spirits, assassins have spirit walk, mesmers have unnatural signet, so there are many different ways to actually counter them. Run a mesmer in your build with Unnatural signet and high domination magic, run some kind of domination mesmer and your all set to destroy all the spirits you want. Theres 1 of MANY solutions off the top of my head, happy?

brother_shaun · Jul 10, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Spirits aren't a problem, it's how ha works. The maps are small and don't give an advantage to mobility and different tactics. Look at GvG, the few builds that do use them are powerfull in 8v8/7v7, but if you split on them they can't do much.

Again, it's not the spirits, it's ha

Skyy High · Jul 10, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Unnatural signet spam, then interrupt the spirit spammer's next casting, that's ~35 seconds spirit-free, and it's easily repeatable, because you KNOW what's that ranger is going to do as soon as he starts running away from the battle and/or someone gets hit by oath shot. Best part is, there isn't a thing he can do about it except run far away, and that's limited on most HA maps.

Furthermore:
- Ranger spirit spamming builds have already been nerfed horribly. You have ONE target to kill now before the spirit's effect goes away, just a tad bit different from the original spirit builds, where you had to kill 3+ of the things, and they were being spammed at the same rate they are now.

- NR has been nerfed to hell already. Remember when it was a global remove enchant? I mean cmon, the only thing it affects in halls is orders and seed.

- The only reason you mention QZ in that rant is because of blood spike, and you fail to mention the two spirits that are actually most important to holding builds, fertile and symbiosis.

- Tranquility is a new skill. IMO, it needs some kind of nerf, but hey, that's what the upcoming skill balances are for.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Jul 10, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

The reason halls changes hands at all is down to EoE and ganking, EOE being the main threat to any holding build.

Which means EoE is a counter.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 10, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ristaron

I'd challenge you people who mindlessly blow it off with a 'counter them' to actually propose counters, rather than being beuracratic spammers solving problems with the fewest words possible.
Unless you post an actual solution, you have no right to argue the OP's point.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...17#post1663817

Go go Warskull!

thunderpower · Jul 11, 2006, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Just to make some stuff clear. Actually it's not that spirits are that much overpowered, it's just that builds based on them are either 2 popular or somewhat overpowered.
Good thing most people figured that I was talking about HA, the effect of the spirits on a small map.

The last time I played pvp in tombs my team got: foc spike in underworld, blood spike in burial, foc spike on unholy, iway than nr/tranq on scarred... the rest doesn't matter.
See my point?

The fact is, if you don't have a build prepared for let's say FoC spike, you need a pretty decent team to beat a noob team running necro spike. And I fail to see the "skill" required to play some of these spirit builds, at least in most of the cases.

Actually spirits dont realy need to be nerfed. There are ways of killing them. The problem is with the low recast rate due to oath shot and the strategy used by spirit spammers. I played spammer on several occasions in some builds (zomg I played iway

) and once you get the idea it's real easy to spam and to stay alive.

Let's just see ways of coping with spirits:

1. Send warrior to kill erm spirits.
2. bring put a seeking arrows rangers with interrupts
3. interrupt/drain mesmer with unnatural signet (remeber, iterrupt skills not spell)
4.other yadi yada like aoe ele

The truth is, usually only a warrior can afford to run around like crazy and harrass spammer. Spammers usually stay at a relative safe distance, so a caster in paper armor will not adventure to far from the team.

Warrior will get lots of conditions from traps, the worst is being blinded and if there is no nearby rc/cond removal monk, it will be a pain in the ass to kill a spirit with blind. Maybe martyr or extinguish could help. Or W/N with plague touch.

Anyway, by the time you kill nr for example, the spammer with 7 energy cost (12 expertise = 5 energy for oath, 2 for nr i guess) recasts the whole sh.t and puts up another set of traps.
Whirling defense also makes it harder for a warrior to truly harass spammers. If you dont have wild blow or warriors cunning, you just play the spammers game.

Actually, Consume Soul is a nice skill to get rid of spirits. But for that you need to sacrifice a damage dealing elite skill (usually) in case of a warrior. But it might be an option, since you need to touch the spirit. But still you need consider barbed trap and crippled = monk nearby, martyr, extinguish.

Actually this discussion could go on and on, depending on the situation. And the thing is, that due to the advantages spirit spammer is widely used. Also spirits in general start to be an annoying problem.

Anyway, I think a recharge time of 40 seconds for oath shot would end this madness. It would still recharge spirits 20 sec faster than the recharge time, but it would give teams time to breathe.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 11, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderpower

Just to make some stuff clear. Actually it's not that spirits are that much overpowered, it's just that builds based on them are either 2 popular or somewhat overpowered.
Good thing most people figured that I was talking about HA, the effect of the spirits on a small map.

The last time I played pvp in tombs my team got: foc spike in underworld, blood spike in burial, foc spike on unholy, iway than nr/tranq on scarred... the rest doesn't matter.
See my point?

As stated above, that's a problem with HA. It encourages people to run as many overused gimmicks as they can in order to farm fame as fast as possible. FoC and bloodspike are especially popular because of how they let you hold an altar in addition to winning 1v1 against a lot of temas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderpower

The fact is, if you don't have a build prepared for let's say FoC spike, you need a pretty decent team to beat a noob team running necro spike. And I fail to see the "skill" required to play some of these spirit builds, at least in most of the cases.

This is true of most any non-adrenal spike build in the game, as well as many gimmick pressure builds like IWAY and Triple Smite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderpower

The truth is, usually only a warrior can afford to run around like crazy and harrass spammer. Spammers usually stay at a relative safe distance, so a caster in paper armor will not adventure to far from the team.

Warrior will get lots of conditions from traps, the worst is being blinded and if there is no nearby rc/cond removal monk, it will be a pain in the ass to kill a spirit with blind. Maybe martyr or extinguish could help. Or W/N with plague touch.

I suggest you have a look at the build I posted just above. Consume Soul on a warrior allows you to easily deal with spirits without getting into range of dust traps and the like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderpower

Actually, Consume Soul is a nice skill to get rid of spirits. But for that you need to sacrifice a damage dealing elite skill (usually) in case of a warrior. But it might be an option, since you need to touch the spirit. But still you need consider barbed trap and crippled = monk nearby, martyr, extinguish.

What elite are you sacrificing on a sword warrior? It's where I usually run Charge in GvG, but there isn't much movement in HA so I can't really see fitting anything but a utility elite on there. It seems like the perfect place for skills like Expel Hexes and Consume Soul.

Sure, you could probably get a little more damage out of an axe guy, but that damage is going to be negated by all the spirit-spamming you're letting the enemy get away with.

thunderpower · Jul 11, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

What elite are you sacrificing on a sword warrior? It's where I usually run Charge in GvG, but there isn't much movement in HA so I can't really see fitting anything but a utility elite on there. It seems like the perfect place for skills like Expel Hexes and Consume Soul.

True. For a sword warrior Expell or Con soul would work nice since it's only 5 energy cost.

Actually i didn't know the issue with consume soul

Quote:

If you target yourself with consume soul the closest spirit within agro range dies

I reffered to the description, wich sais

Quote:

target touched spirit

Actually it might work. But spirits are really an issue on small HA maps. And sword warrior isn't that much an option in HA.

fiery · Jul 11, 2006, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Pick a spirit hunter, stop whining.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 11, 2006, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderpower

I reffered to the description, wich sais

I haven't personally tested this, but according to Warskull in the other thread the description is incorrect. Target yourself with Consume Soul and you'll destroy the nearest spirit in aggro range without actually moving to it.

thunderpower · Jul 11, 2006, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiery

Pick a spirit hunter, stop whining.

Great. Thanx for the advice, I actually will try that "for the first time".

If you don't really have anything to say pls dont comment. Anyway many of your comments tend to be umm... irrelevant. I think I was more than polite, cuz I already got a warning a while ago because of my comments to your "great" posts Fiery.

Vindexus · Jul 11, 2006, 05:00 AM // 05:00

I'd like to say that as a matter of principle I hate spirits. Balance set aside, I don't think they add any fun to the game and thus shouldn't be there. Playing a Spirit Spammer is boring and doesn't take much skill and playing against them is just frustrating.

As for balance I have to agree that the current Ritual Lord spirit spammer build is a little too good. It offers very solid defense in an area that you can't get to easily (behind their backline).

Also, if you're going to complain about skill balance, start with how many skills are unuseable in PvP. Go ahead, count them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chooby

stop whinging about it,

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiery

Pick a spirit hunter, stop whining.

Vindexus' Law states that:
As a user continues to disagree with the rules of their environment, their probability of being called a whiner approaches one.